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Electric fuel pump installation

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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

I'd ordered almost everything on my list to do a parallel Facet fuel pump o

n

my MkIII, when I came to check valves. The nice person at CPS informed me

that they had stopped carrying the little cheap plastic jobs because their

inferior quality made them dangerous. It was then that I realized that a

primer bulb has check valves in both ends. It will be a clunky install, but

it gets the job done. Functionality wins over elegance again.



-- 

Rick Girard

"Pining for a home on the Range"

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

I haven't confirmed it myself, but supposedly both pumps already have

check valves in them, so you won't need another point-of-failure

(primer bulb).  (I do know my Facet pump has check valves in it, I'm

just not sure about the mechanical pump.)



  -- Robert

On 5/23/06, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'd ordered almost everything on my list to do a parallel Facet fuel pump o

 n

 my MkIII, when I came to check valves. The nice person at CPS informed me

 that they had stopped carrying the little cheap plastic jobs because their

 inferior quality made them dangerous. It was then that I realized that a

 primer bulb has check valves in both ends. It will be a clunky install, but

 it gets the job done. Functionality wins over elegance again.



 --

 Rick Girard

 "Pining for a home on the Range"

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

jdm(at)wideworld.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

Aren't the check valves in the primer bulb prone to failure?  I was told 

this some time ago and incorporated a bypass loop around the bulb.  When I 

squeeze the bulb I pinch the bypass shut to force the fuel to the carbs.



I'm looking at adding a pump also as a backup.  Id be interested in knowing 

what check valves you find and how reliable they are.



John Murr



---

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

This primer bulb with their "sticky" check valves have brought down 

more than one plane which is why if you install one in your fuel line 

it is recommended you install a bypass line around them, when you use 

the primer you pinch off the by pass, although I found I didn't have 

to on my plane.  This is where redundancy creates more potential 

problems than they solve.  Remember to KISS-it.

I believe NAPA auto parts stores sell the check valves for the Facet 

fuel pumps.

jerb



At 12:33 PM 5/23/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'd ordered almost everything on my list to do a parallel Facet fuel pump o

n

my MkIII, when I came to check valves. The nice person at CPS informed me

that they had stopped carrying the little cheap plastic jobs because their

inferior quality made them dangerous. It was then that I realized that a

primer bulb has check valves in both ends. It will be a clunky install, but

it gets the job done. Functionality wins over elegance again.



--

Rick Girard

"Pining for a home on the Range"

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Electric fuel pump installation

Gosh, I really hate to start this over again, but here goes. You all right and some of you are wrong. 

NOT all facet pumps have check valves. Ask and make sure. Second, redundancy brought down my instructors Challenger, that and a faulty internal facet check valve.

I will attempt to take pictures of my assemblies as soon as possible. I am presently building this onto my Kolb.



Solution, at least for me as I write, I am doing this as is my instructor in his Challenger (I in my Kolb Firestar KXP 503).



Check valves from Mc_Master Carr. Check valve is 1/8" NPT . I probably would consider a slightly larger check valve next time because of the restriction. However, for my instructor and myself, the system still delivered more than enough fuel into a bucket in a given time to exceed any demand the 503 with duel carbs will require.



7775K61 

Brass Spring-Loaded Piston Check Valve 1/8" Nptf  Dryseal Male Connections, Viton Seat



$10.89   You will need two of these. 

Next:

from

aircraftspruce.com



 



40105 40105 FACET SOL ST FUEL PUMP 2.00 0.00 28.60 you will need one if you are also using the mechanical one that came with the engine.

04-00202 MANIFOLD AL FITTING FAB-2-0-2 2.00 0.00 12.900  Yu will need one of these.

Now what we did. You may choose to do otherwise. Connect check valve on manifold  there are as you will note 2 pieces check valve, with viton seals. One manifold. The manifold has 5 holes. One from one end, two on top and two on bottom. Plug side hole with 1/8" NPT pipe plug or install pressure gauge (0-6 P.S.I.) install the check valves with any necessary elbows. Install Female 1/8" NPT x 1/4" hose barb. TOne line goes back to a "T" at the output of the mechanical pump on the engine. The other check valve connection goes to the electric fuel pump. Remember to install before the suction side of both pumps, a proper filter. Be sure to put the filter where you can look at them on some frequency. If not you will have a new problem to deal with. Now out of the two remaining 1/8" NPT holes, install a 1/8" NPT male to 1/4" barb fitting. Install the line from these to the two pumps. 



NOW, If a pump fails ,it's pumping or lack there of will be nipped at the manifold and the other pump will continue to do it's job. 



In starting the engine, turn on electric fuel pump switch. watch gauge. It should show pressure. Start the engine, turn off the electric fuel pump, watch gauge, it should show pressure. Bob's your uncle.



Now this is the "skinny version". I have made a cutout in the back of my fuselage on top and installed a door. I can remove this door and look down into the back of the framework where I have mounted my electric fuel pump, and its fuel filter and the fuel filter for the mechanical pump is mounted right next to it. It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't believe.

Had I just not posted our problem on the site, I would not have concerned myself with this because well, the factory pump on the 503 seems to satisfy many of the posters. And ironically many of the facet users have not faced a problem with two pump systems. This isn’t bulletproof by any stretch of the imagination, but it is better to put check valves close to the use point than , IMHO, at the pump. 



"Disclaimer::: Warning! This is working for me. It does not mean it will work for you. This is installed by me on my plane. My plane is an experimental. I am experimenting. Your experimentation with like components on a like aircraft may not deliver the same results. Certain side effects can occur, way past nose bleeding or upset stomach. Always ask an aeronautical engineer before attempting. Death may result in misuse! I take no credit for any of the information contained above. There is no warranty implied or expressed. This "Warning" covers all my responsibility and I will not become responsible for any damage derived from the outcome of the above, even if used correctly.

Steven Green

Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

Rick,



No need for more check valves.  There is a check valve at the discharge of

each pump already.



Steven

---

_________________
Steven Green

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Electric fuel pump installation

I am curious, I fully ubderstand the desire for dual pumps in the event that one pump fails, but why you anyone install a paralle sytem, there by doubleing the chances for failure, double the fuel lines and check valve that are prone to failure generally in the open postion?  A dual series system only requires an electric fuel pump with and out put check valve a single fuel line to the pulse pump and then on to the carbs.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

I have to admit that I might like some back up for my single pump,

but the Facet is heavy enough by itself without doubling up.



Inline looks like a poor way to go as any blockage would put both out 

of business.



Parallel, if indeed they both have internal check valves, would work.

----if the check valve on the failed pump still remained functional.



This assumes you are running both full time. In which case you will not

actually be aware of the failure when it occurs.



Next idea is a pressure switch activated back up pump (that would have 

to

reset after each startup to take it off line).



Too many gremlins.  Too bad the engine is at the high spot, out of the 

reach

of good old gravity.



-BB,  one precarious pump.  do not archive

On 24, May 2006, at 1:37 PM, Mnflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am curious, I fully ubderstand the desire for dual pumps in the 

 event that one pump fails, but why you anyone install a paralle sytem, 

 there by doubleing the chances for failure, double the fuel lines and 

 check valve that are prone to failure generally in the open postion?  

 A dual series system only requires an electric fuel pump with and out 

 put check valve a single fuel line to the pulse pump and then on to 

 the carbs.



 --------

 GB

 MNFlyer





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36241#36241

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

I am still confused why do you guys think it is so important to have a check 

valve in your little planes  fuel system? are you putting so much G-Force on 

it that you cant keep fuel to the carb I have that problem once in a while but 

I will someday install a electric fuel pump so I can force fuel to the carb 

and I wont keep having almost engine outs Buzzing others  that enjoy it as much 

as I enjoy doing it

  



Ellery in Maine



do not archive

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: Electric fuel pump installation

---

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Electric fuel pump installation

For your reading pleasure. Not all Facet pumps are created equal!



FACET MIN - MAX ANTIPART

SHUTOFF POSITIVE MIN DRY FITTING QUIET CHECK SIPHON

NO. PRESSURE GPH LEAD LIFT INCHES SIZE VALVE VALVE VALVE

40104 2 - 4 28 12 1/8-27 INT NO NO NO

40105 3 - 4.5 34 12 1/8-27 INT NO NO NO

40106 4.5 - 7 34 12 1/8-27 INT NO NO NO

40107 7 - 10 50 12 1/8-27 INT NO NO NO

40108 4.5 - 6 32 .25 BLADE 12 3/8 FLARE NO NO NO

40109 4.5 - 9 32 24 3/8-18 INT NO YES NO

See Facet pdf file at Facet site for details. I was under the impression that the 40-105 did have a check valve. It has a buldge on the intake.



Oh well, 



Ohio Ralph

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Electric fuel pump installation

I forgot in my earlier response to give this site as good info for our Facet pumps.



Far more than I had imagined for thoses of you using Facet pumps that thought they had anti-siphoning or checkvalves, etc. One size does not fit all. Now my instructor tells me he will not even consider  flying my Kolb if I do not install filter BEFORE pump. Whats a guy to do? Haa! Ha!  So amny opininons, so little time. Guess thats why they call it experimental!

http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/pages/frame_src/ttips_frmsrc.html



Ohio Ralph

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