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Landing RV-8

 
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m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:21 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

Thanks,
Matt


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Larry Bowen



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:35 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings. On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)>

Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

Thanks,
Matt

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====================================
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====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]


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Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress...
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d-burton(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:20 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel airplane since
100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the
designer of the RV8, Van himself:

"I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently
land safely without a mastery of low speed control.
While this point may be argued, the traditional landing
objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum
air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of
Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for
wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict
my above statement of the "accepted" preferred
landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook
dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher
touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation
could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing
because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that
they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."

He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and comments
about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the factory,
with no incidents. His point is that pilots tend to land too fast for the
conditions. I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A while he
was landing once. Amazing.


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rice737(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Hey Matt,

I have about 300 hours in my RV8, and I am a 50/50 guy.� Many people would say that you are in a less�risky spot doing a�3 pointer because you are�going slower at touch down, and I can not disagree with that.��I'f I want to land short, I usually set up for a 3 pointer.� And yes, you can hit the tailwheel first, even more likely if you have a passenger in the back, not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet up.� If I have plenty of runway, I set up for a wheel landing, as it is easy to grease on in that position.��Visability�over the nose should not be a factor in the -8 in the three pointer, unless you are in the back seat of course,� and if you can land it from there well, you shouldn't have any problem in any tailwheel airplane.�

Paul
RV8
Flying Siren

[quote] From: m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400

--> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>

Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

Thanks,
========================


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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:33 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point landings. I am on a 2155' grass strip. The only time I did wheel landings was when I was carrying too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less flaps and carried more speed.

I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on final, and bleed down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

Thanks,
Matt






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HCRV6(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have who prefers wheel landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6 and 99% of my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I did not install the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a decent wheel landing without at least one hop.

RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.

Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours
From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:18:27 AM
Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8

--> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>

Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
approach speeds? T= &==


[quote][b]


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Bubblehead



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

I have about 400 hours on my RV-8 and when I first flew it, wheel landings were a lot easier and more consistent. It just seemed to squeak on with the tail slightly low and just above a stall, especially when flying solo. After about 50 landings or so I started working on 3-point landings. It just gives a little different look over the nose and I was initially a little high on full flare and would bounce a little.

Now I use either one depending on conditions. Cross wind and gusty I like wheel landings and other times full stall.

When a passenger is in the back the 3-point landing is a little touchy. It seems to stall quicker and with less warning but still very controllable throughout the landing.

In summary, both are very doable, and I think you should learn and practice both with the CG in many locations. It never hurts to have more options to chose from.


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John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD
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m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:14 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.

I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel� landing.

Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this

Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Matt,
The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4, -6 and -7 so what works well in those planes�doesn't�necessarily apply in a -8. The 8 has spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all have�Whitman�style�tapered�rods.

In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out that the tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the wheels when they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying interesting and less so when you go slower. So lots of them prefer a min speed 3 pt to minimize capital losses and hurt pride.


If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you basically have to fly the right attitude on to the pavement and continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170 and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not bouncing at all.


You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think this "belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the other alternative of doing a wheelie.


So, unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies, touching down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down pat(on pavement) you can have a butter smooth landing every single time which, to me, is less wear and tear than the regular crow hopping and tail first alternatives.


Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail first becomes very easy when you need it.


I personally like wheelies because you get to pick more�accurately�where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the "wait for it" full stall landing.


The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with the elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator authority, put the tail down, stick in your gut, and start breaking again. This is an advanced technique�that is right out of stick and rudder, nobody teaches it anymore but it can be done and end up with very short landing rolls while still doing a wheelie. The advantage here is that you get more control over where you touch down by virtue of doing a wheelie and then if you need to you can brake�aggressively and end up with landing roll that is very similar to a 3 pt min speed roll.�

Bill
N84WJ, RV-8, 665 hrs, KSEE based
rv-8.blogspot.com

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM, RV-List Digest Server <rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
[quote] *

�=========================
� Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
�=========================

Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. �The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. �The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.

HTML Version:

� �http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2011-10-11&Archive=RV

Text Version:

� �http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2011-10-11&Archive=RV


�================================================
� EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
�================================================


� � � � � ----------------------------------------------------------
� � � � � � � � � � � � � RV-List Digest Archive
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �---
� � � � � � � � � � Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7
� � � � � ----------------------------------------------------------


Today's Message Index:
----------------------

� � 1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8 �(Matt Tucciarone)
� � 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 �(Larry Bowen)
� � 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 �(David Burton)
� � 4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 �(Paul Rice)
� � 5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 �(Michael Kraus)
� � 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 �(HCRV6(at)comcast.net (HCRV6(at)comcast.net))
� � 7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator �(Denis Walsh)



________________________________ �Message 1 �_____________________________________


Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US
From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)>
Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8


Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

Thanks,
Matt


________________________________ �Message 2 �_____________________________________


Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US
Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowenaero.com (larry(at)bowenaero.com)>

Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.
On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

> >
>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>

________________________________ �Message 3 �_____________________________________


Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US
From: "David Burton" <d-burton(at)comcast.net (d-burton(at)comcast.net)>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8


While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel airplane since
100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the
designer of the RV8, Van himself:

"I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently
land safely without a mastery of low speed control.
While this point may be argued, the traditional landing
objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum
air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of
Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for
wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict
my above statement of the "accepted" preferred
landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook
dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher
touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation
could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing
because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that
they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."

He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and comments
about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the factory,
with no incidents. �His point is that pilots tend to land too fast for the
conditions. �I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A while he
was landing once. �Amazing.


________________________________ �Message 4 �_____________________________________


Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US
From: Paul Rice <rice737(at)msn.com (rice737(at)msn.com)>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Landing RV-8


Hey Matt=2C �I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50 guy. �Man
y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3 pointer beca
use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree with that.
�I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer. �And yes=2C
�you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a passenge
r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet up. �If I
have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is easy to g
rease on in that position. �Visability over the nose should not be a factor
�in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat of cours
e=2C �and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have any prob
lem in any tailwheel airplane. � PaulRV8Flying Siren
�> From: m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8
> Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400
>
m>
>
> Hi everyone=2C
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn ho
w
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wh
eel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instruct
or
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the

> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a littl
e
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your

> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks=2C
> Matt
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>


________________________________ �Message 5 �_____________________________________


Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US
Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net (n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net)>


I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point landings. �I am on
a 2155' grass strip. �The only time I did wheel landings was when I was carrying
too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less flaps and
carried more speed.

I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on final, and bleed
down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how to
land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel landings
(the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be
doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II seaplane
and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try
a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a lot
less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel at
my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your approach
speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
>
>


________________________________ �Message 6 �_____________________________________


Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US
From: HCRV6(at)comcast.net (HCRV6(at)comcast.net)
Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8

Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have who prefers wheel
landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6 and 99% of
my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I did not install
the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a decent wheel
landing without at least one hop.

RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.


Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours


Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

---


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:36 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

The C190/195 and C170 series have a Wittman spring steel gear of flat
spring steel. The tubular gear of later model Cessnas and RV was a later
development. A C170B (the model I have ~700 hours in) can be landed
equally well with wheel or 3 pt landings, and preference will depend on
recency of experience, wind and loading. It seemed to ebb and flow which
I preferred. Can't comment on RV landings as the only RV's I've had the
pleasure of flying were nose wheel.

On 10/12/2011 8:16 AM, Bill Judge wrote:
[quote] Matt,
The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4, -6 and -7 so
what works well in those planes doesn't necessarily apply in a -8. The
8 has spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all
have Whitman style tapered rods.

In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out
that the tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the
wheels when they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying
interesting and less so when you go slower. So lots of them prefer a
min speed 3 pt to minimize capital losses and hurt pride.

If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the
angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It
seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you
basically have to fly the right attitude on to the pavement and
continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170
and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and
totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not
bouncing at all.

You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think
this "belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the
other alternative of doing a wheelie.

So, unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies,
touching down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down
pat(on pavement) you can have a butter smooth landing every single
time which, to me, is less wear and tear than the regular crow hopping
and tail first alternatives.

Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail
first becomes very easy when you need it.

I personally like wheelies because you get to pick
more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the
"wait for it" full stall landing.

The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake
aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with
the elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator
authority, put the tail down, stick in your gut, and start breaking
again. This is an advanced technique that is right out of stick and
rudder, nobody teaches it anymore but it can be done and end up with
very short landing rolls while still doing a wheelie. The advantage
here is that you get more control over where you touch down by virtue
of doing a wheelie and then if you need to you can brake aggressively
and end up with landing roll that is very similar to a 3 pt min speed
roll.

Bill
N84WJ, RV-8, 665 hrs, KSEE based
rv-8.blogspot.com <http://rv-8.blogspot.com>
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM, RV-List Digest Server
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Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------

1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8 (Matt Tucciarone)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Larry Bowen)
3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (David Burton)
4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Paul Rice)
5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (Michael Kraus)
6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8 (HCRV6(at)comcast.net
<mailto:HCRV6(at)comcast.net>)
7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator (Denis Walsh)

________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US
From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com
<mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>>
Subject: Landing RV-8
Hi everyone,
My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
learn how
to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
getting wheel
landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
instructor
if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
like the
fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt
a little
rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
are your
approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

Thanks,
Matt
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Landing RV-8
From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowenaero.com <mailto:larry(at)bowenaero.com>>

Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.
On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone"
<m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>> wrote:

> >
>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
learn how
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
getting wheel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are
telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in
a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
instructor
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
like the
> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I
felt a little
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
are your
> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>

________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US
From: "David Burton" <d-burton(at)comcast.net
<mailto:d-burton(at)comcast.net>>
Subject: Re: Landing RV-8
While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel
airplane since
100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the
designer of the RV8, Van himself:

"I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently
land safely without a mastery of low speed control.
While this point may be argued, the traditional landing
objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum
air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of
Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for
wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict
my above statement of the "accepted" preferred
landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook
dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher
touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation
could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing
because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that
they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."

He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and
comments
about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the
factory,
with no incidents. His point is that pilots tend to land too fast
for the
conditions. I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A
while he
was landing once. Amazing.
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US
From: Paul Rice <rice737(at)msn.com <mailto:rice737(at)msn.com>>
Subject: RE: Landing RV-8
Hey Matt=2C I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50
guy. Man
y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3
pointer beca
use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree
with that.
I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer.
And yes=2C
you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a
passenge
r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet
up. If I
have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is
easy to g
rease on in that position. Visability over the nose should not be
a factor
in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat
of cours
e=2C and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have
any prob
lem in any tailwheel airplane. PaulRV8Flying Siren
> From: m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv-list(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: Landing RV-8
> Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400
>
m>
>
> Hi everyone=2C
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
learn ho
w
> to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
getting wh
eel
> landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are
telling me I
> should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in
a slow
> Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my
instruct
or
> if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not
like the

> fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I
felt a littl
e
> rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
are your

> approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks=2C
> Matt
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Landing RV-8
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net
<mailto:n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>>
I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point
landings. I am on
a 2155' grass strip. The only time I did wheel landings was when
I was carrying
too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less
flaps and
carried more speed.

I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on
final, and bleed
down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone"
<m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>> wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to
learn how to
land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about
getting wheel landings
(the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I
should be
doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow
Aventura II seaplane
and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could
just try
a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you
have a lot
less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the
tail wheel at
my grass strip.
>
> Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What
are your approach
speeds? Touchdown speeds?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US
From: HCRV6(at)comcast.net <mailto:HCRV6(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Landing RV-8

Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have
who prefers wheel
landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6
and 99% of
my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I
did not install
the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a
decent wheel
landing without at least one hop.

RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

---


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

On 10-12-2011 15:16, Bill Judge wrote:
Quote:



If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you basically have to fly the right attitude on to the pavement and continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170 and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not bouncing at all.

Is what you describe true with the flaps down or up? If up, try a couple notches (half flaps) and see if that helps. With the flaps down, that portion of the wings have an "increased" angle of attack (relative chord I think it's called) and reach the critical angle a bit sooner than the rest of the wing. At least it sounds good in theory. I've used this technique to good effect in Cessna 140s that have been converterted from the original Scott 2000 tailwheel to the 3200, which is, of course, a bigger wheel and thus lower angle of attack in the three point position.




Quote:





I personally like wheelies because you get to pick more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the "wait for it" full stall landing.

No comment, pro or con Wink I can get my airplane within 50 or 100 feet of intended spot when I really need to (ie 1500 foot strip carved out of the trees.


Quote:


The kicker is ...edited here... and start breaking again.


I HOPE you mean braking (stopping) rather than breaking ($$$) Smile

Scott
Corben Junior Ace (a whole different league than the RV!)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:03 pm    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast?  With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)???  Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....



On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote: [quote] Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.

I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel  landing.

Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this

Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com> (bjudge(at)gmail.com) wrote:



[b]


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Yes it does sound a bit fast but it seems to get pretty sloppy below 70. Like I said, I am still working it out. With enough practice, I will eventually get it.
I do feel like I am learning to fly all over again.

Matt


From: Scott (acepilot(at)bloomer.net)
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:58 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Landing RV-8


Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....

On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote: [quote] Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.

I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.

Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this

Bill Judge mailto:bjudge(at)gmail.com (bjudge(at)gmail.com) wrote:



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Two comments:

1. Each homebuilt aircraft has its own, individual ASI instrument error and static system position error. The sum of these errors may be more than 10 kt on some aircraft. Thus the final approach IAS that is perfect for one aircraft may be completely wrong on another aircraft. Be careful taking someone else's numbers as the gospel and assuming that they will work for you in your aircraft.

2. The 1.3 Vso "rule" is not universally correct. Large aircraft have historically used an approach speed of 1.3 times the stall speed, with both speeds measured in calibrated airspeed, not indicated airspeed (there has been a recent change to 1.23 times the stall speed, but they changed the way the stall speed is measured, so the approach speeds haven't really changed). Most aircraft have large static source position errors at the stall speed, and the sense of the usual error is to make the indicated speed lower than the calibrated speed. I used to fly a C182 that had a ridiculously low indicated airspeed at the stall. If I were to fly final at 1.3 times the indicated stall speed I would be much too slow in that aircraft, and would risk having a hard landing if there was the slightest wind gust.

We need to keep in mind that this 30% margin over the stall speed is actually quite a few knots on a big aircraft, as the stall speed is fairly high. But 30% of a 50 mph stall speed is a much smaller margin than 30% of a 100 mph stall speed. A 20 mph wind gust will cause both aircraft to lose 20 mph on final, so the smaller aircraft may need more than 30% speed margin to allow for the gusts.

In my opinion, the best way to figure out the best approach speed for your aircraft is to simply try approaches at ever slower speeds on a calm day. Reduce the approach speed by one or two mph each time. The plane will talk to you, and you'll figure out where the lowest practical approach speed is. Now, for "every day" flying, you should add a small buffer above the demonstrated lowest practical approach speed, to allow for a bit of pilot inattention, or minor wind gusts. In flight testing, we have to demonstrate that the aircraft can be landed safely when the approach speed is 5 kt less than the recommended one. Operators typically add another 5 kts over the recommended speed, so they are actually flying 10 kt faster than was shown to be safe during flight testing.

And of course if the winds are gusting, you all know you need to add even more speed.

And we know that you need a higher approach speed at higher weights. And we also know that the stall speed (and thus the required approach) is higher at forward CG than it is at aft CG. Note: the aircraft will handle differently at forward and aft CG, and these handling changes may require different approach speeds at different CGs.

--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
On 2011-10-12, at 17:58 , Scott wrote:

Quote:
Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....



On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:
> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
>
> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.
>
> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
>
> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
>
> Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>



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Bob Collins



Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Just a note to say I think I learn more about flying airplanes from Kevin Horton than anyone I know, and just wanted to thank him publicly for outstanding information.

Do not archive

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
[quote]From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
To:
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent:
Wed, Oct 12, 2011 23:01:11 GMT+00:00
Subject:
Re: RV-List: Re: Landing RV-8


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Dale Ensing



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:40 am    Post subject: Landing RV-8 Reply with quote

Well said Bob and I second that! Thank you Kevin for your contribution to the RV crowd over the years.
Dale Ensing
RV-6A

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 12, 2011, at 20:41, "bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]Just a note to say I think I learn more about flying airplanes from Kevin Horton than anyone I know, and just wanted to thank him publicly for outstanding information.

Do not archive

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
Quote:
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com (khorton01(at)rogers.com)>
To:
rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent:
Wed, Oct 12, 2011 23:01:11 GMT+00:00
Subject:
Re: Re: Landing RV-8
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton

Two comments:

1. Each homebuilt aircraft has its own, individual ASI instrument error and static system position error. The sum of these errors may be more than 10 kt on some aircraft. Thus the final approach IAS that is perfect for one aircraft may be completely wrong on another aircraft. Be careful taking someone else's numbers as the gospel and assuming that they will work for you in your aircraft.

2. The 1.3 Vso "rule" is not universally correct. Large aircraft have historically used an approach speed of 1.3 times the stall speed, with both speeds measured in calibrated airspeed, not indicated airspeed (there has been a recent change to 1.23 times the stall speed, but they changed the way the stall speed is measured, so the approach speeds haven't really changed). Most aircraft have large static source position errors at the stall speed, and the sense of the usual error is to make the indicated speed lower than the calibrated speed. I used to fly a C182 that had a ridiculously low indicated airspeed at the stall. If I were to fly final at 1.3 times the indicated stall speed I would be much too slow in that aircraft, and would risk having a hard landing if there was the slightest wind gust.

We need to keep in mind that this 30% margin over the stall speed is actually quite a few knots on a big aircraft, as the stall speed is fairly high. But 30% of a 50 mph stall speed is a much smaller margin than 30% of a 100 mph stall speed. A 20 mph wind gust will cause both aircraft to lose 20 mph on final, so the smaller aircraft may need more than 30% speed margin to allow for the gusts.

In my opinion, the best way to figure out the best approach speed for your aircraft is to simply try approaches at ever slower speeds on a calm day. Reduce the approach speed by one or two mph each time. The plane will talk to you, and you'll figure out where the lowest practical approach speed is. Now, for "every day" flying, you should add a small buffer above the demonstrated lowest practical approach speed, to allow for a bit of pilot inattention, or minor wind gusts. In flight testing, we have to demonstrate that the aircraft can be landed safely when the approach speed is 5 kt less than the recommended one. Operators typically add another 5 kts over the recommended speed, so they are actually flying 10 kt faster than was shown to be safe during flight testing.

And of course if the winds are gusting, you all know you need to add even more speed.

And we know that you need a higher approach speed at higher weights. And we also know that the stall speed (and thus the required approach) is higher at forward CG than it is at aft CG. Note: the aircraft will handle differently at forward and aft CG, and these handling changes may require different approach speeds at different CGs.

--
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
On 2011-10-12, at 17:58 , Scott wrote:

Quote:
Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast? With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)??? Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....



On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:
> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.
>
> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.
>
> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel landing.
>
> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this
>
> Bill Judge wrote:
>


http://www===================================================="http://forums.matronics.com">http:/==========================ef="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri=========================================
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