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DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: 447 quit

List,

  

      I have been in  lurk for a while, but have a  situation where I could use advice. I had 170 hours on the 447 and decided to  have a   " pro"  do my 150 hour insp.  I used  an authorized LEAF  mechanic.   It was  about 3 weeks  before I could reinstall the engine so I put a little 2-stroke in each plug  hole to help lube and prevent corrosion.  I had  trouble starting  because the plugs were apparently fouled with the oil. I finally got her  running and was trying  to adjust the ivo prop. got it up to 6200 rpms  and she QUIT. I dont think I got it too hot but maybe its possible it was not  warmed up enough!   Maybe its possible the plugs fouled ???  Or  not??    She seemed to shut off pretty quick , but started back  up.  I dont know where to start, as I fear it may be cold seizure . Will a  compression check verify anything?   Any thoughts?

  

                 Ed     ( In Houston     Firefly  62 )

 [quote][b]

roy.spangler(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: 447 quit

Aquanut,



Check to see if you have spark - A grounded out wire can cause your situation

roy



On 7/4/11, DAquaNut(at)aol.com <DAquaNut(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 List,



      I have been in  lurk for a while, but have a  situation where I could

 use advice. I had 170 hours on the 447 and decided to  have a   " pro"  do

 my 150 hour insp.  I used  an authorized LEAF  mechanic.   It was  about 3

 weeks  before I could reinstall the engine so I put a little 2-stroke in

 each

 plug  hole to help lube and prevent corrosion.  I had  trouble starting

 because the plugs were apparently fouled with the oil. I finally got her

 running and was trying  to adjust the ivo prop. got it up to 6200 rpms  and

 she

 QUIT. I dont think I got it too hot but maybe its possible it was not

 warmed

 up enough!   Maybe its possible the plugs fouled ???  Or  not??    She

 seemed to shut off pretty quick , but started back  up.  I dont know where

 to

 start, as I fear it may be cold seizure . Will a  compression check verify

 anything?   Any thoughts?



                 Ed     ( In Houston     Firefly  62 )

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: 447 quit

Roy,

  

     It started back up after it died so it must have spark.  It SEEMS to run OK but Im afraid to take to the air. I would like to know if it  was cold seizure! I will check for a loose wire and check the engine kill  wire.

  

             Ed  (  in Hou  FF62)

  

  In a message dated 7/4/2011 12:57:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Check to see if you have spark - A grounded out wire can cause your    situation

roy

	


 [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: 447 quit

Take off the exhaust manifold at the port and examine the side of the piston. If it seized that's where you'll find the damage. You're looking for vertical streaks or scratches. If you find evidence one or both pistons seized you can use Muriatic (concrete etch) acid on a rag to clean off the aluminum on the cylinder walls. Be careful to only get it on the iron cylinder liner. You'll need to replace both pistons, too.  



Rick Girard



On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Roy Spangler <roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu (roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: Roy Spangler <roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu (roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu)>

 

 Aquanut,

 

 Check to see if you have spark - A grounded out wire can cause your situation

 

 

 roy

 



 On 7/4/11, DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com) <DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 >

 > List,

 >

 >      I have been in  lurk for a while, but have a  situation where I could

 > use advice. I had 170 hours on the 447 and decided to  have a   " pro"  do

 > my 150 hour insp.  I used  an authorized LEAF  mechanic.   It was  about 3

 > weeks  before I could reinstall the engine so I put a little 2-stroke in

 > each

 > plug  hole to help lube and prevent corrosion.  I had  trouble starting

 > because the plugs were apparently fouled with the oil. I finally got her

 > running and was trying  to adjust the ivo prop. got it up to 6200 rpms  and

 > she

 > QUIT. I dont think I got it too hot but maybe its possible it was not

 > warmed

 > up enough!   Maybe its possible the plugs fouled ???  Or  not??    She

 > seemed to shut off pretty quick , but started back  up.  I dont know where

 > to

 > start, as I fear it may be cold seizure . Will a  compression check verify

 > anything?   Any thoughts?

 >

 >                 Ed     ( In Houston     Firefly  62 )

 

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:26 am Post subject: 447 quit

Ed, that's pretty much the nature of a cold seizure. A little cooling and they pop loose. They ALWAYS seize again. Don't chance it, pull the exhaust Y and look at the piston, it's the only way to know for sure and it takes less than an hour. 



Rick



On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 1:13 PM,  <DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        Roy,

  

     It started back up after it died so it must have spark.  It SEEMS to run OK but Im afraid to take to the air. I would like to know if it  was cold seizure! I will check for a loose wire and check the engine kill  wire.

  

             Ed  (  in Hou  FF62)

  

  In a message dated 7/4/2011 12:57:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu (roy.spangler(at)kirtland.edu) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Check to see if you have spark - A grounded out wire can cause your    situation

roy

	




  	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: 447 quit

Ed,



The most likely place for piston scuffing is the exhaust port side of the 

piston.  You can view this area by removing the exhaust manifold and 

observing the piston as you rotate the propeller.  Check with your engine 

mechanic to find out what he did to the engine.  If he honed out the 

cylinders and/or replaced the piston rings, I would put it through the 

engine break-in cycle.  If it gets through the this it is should be ready to 

go.  



If you don't want to do this or it doesn't make it through the break-in 

test, you have to pull the heads and the jugs to check for piston scuff.  If 

there is scuffing, I would remove the aluminum from the cylinders with 

muratic acid.  If the piston scuffing is light to medium, I would remove the 

rings and using a fine broad file, and smooth the peaks to the point where 

the piston will slide just nicely through the cylinder.  You can get away 

with this because there is very little side load on the piston when it is 

under the greatest heat and pressure loads at the top of the cylinder.  In 

fact these scuff marks will enhance increased lubrication in the scuffed 

areas.



Before re-installing the rings, use a fine jeweler's file to remove any burr 

caused by a scuffing along the piston land slot corners.  Remove only the 

burr and nothing from the land on which the rings rest.  Install the piston 

ring and check that the ring is free to rotate as far as the pin will allow 

it, and that the ring will slide freely and completely into the slot.



Reassemble the engine and put it through the break-in cycle, and go fly.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



..........................................



<From: DAquaNut(at)aol.com

<Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 12:13:12 -0400 (EDT)



<..................

<to shut off pretty quick , but started back up.  I dont know where to 

<start, as I fear it may be cold seizure . Will a compression check verify 

<anything?   Any thoughts?

  

<               Ed     ( In Houston     Firefly 62 )

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: 447 quit

Greetings,



I have followed this thread from the start.  What is a "cold seizure"?



I also did a search on here and nothing turned up.



If it is caused by cold weather, then it wont happen here.



Thanks,

David d.

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: 447 quit

>What is a cold seizure?

 	  Quote: 	
		   If it is caused by cold weather, then it wont happen here.

 

 Thanks,

 David d


	


David,



  I can't say I actually know what a cold seizure is, either.  I'm guessing,

It's an engine that is expected to go to "full throttle" too soon, and thereby

seizes due to it not being ready for such a power demand.  I might be 

wrong, but that would be my guess.



Mike Welch

 



 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: 447 quit

A cold seizure happens when the piston expands rapidly, decreasing piston to cylinder clearance. It's one of the reasons for the Rotax recommended break in so that everything is worn in by running the engine at discreet speeds for specified times. You should find it in your engine's installation manual. Once the break in is done you simply have to warm the engine to operating temperature before bringing it up to flight running levels. 



Rick Girard



On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 8:06 PM, SS568 <david(at)paulowniatrees.com (david(at)paulowniatrees.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "SS568" <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>

 

 Greetings,

 

 I have followed this thread from the start.  What is a "cold seizure"?

 

 I also did a search on here and nothing turned up.

 

 If it is caused by cold weather, then it wont happen here.

 

 Thanks,

 David d.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345375#345375

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: 447 quit

In normal practice you should run your engine at a moderate power level to warm up the cylinders and heads to reduce the chance of a cold seizure.  Long time back I picked cylinder temps of 200 degrees was the   desired temps before running at full power such as for take off.  So far between two planes with 447's it has worked for over 500 hours.

 jerb   



 At 11:01 PM 7/7/2011, you wrote:

 [quote]A cold seizure happens when the piston expands rapidly, decreasing piston to cylinder clearance. It's one of the reasons for the Rotax recommended break in so that everything is worn in by running the engine at discreet speeds for specified times. You should find it in your engine's installation manual. Once the break in is done you simply have to warm the engine to operating temperature before bringing it up to flight running levels.



 Rick Girard



 On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 8:06 PM, SS568 <david(at)paulowniatrees.com (david(at)paulowniatrees.com) > wrote:

   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "SS568" <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>



  Greetings,



  I have followed this thread from the start.  What is a "cold seizure"?



  I also did a search on here and nothing turned up.



  If it is caused by cold weather, then it wont happen here.



  Thanks,

  David d.



 



 

  Read this topic online here:



   http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345375#345375



 



 



 



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 -- 

 Zulu Delta

 Mk IIIC

 Thanks, Homer GBYM



 It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx

 



 

 [b]

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:54 am Post subject: Re: 447 quit

Thanks for the explanations.



Does it usually give any warning before happening?  Such as sounds like it is laboring, misfiring, loss of rpm?



David d.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: 447 quit

Usually just a few seconds of decreasing RPM and then the engine stops running. The devilish thing is that it only takes a few minutes of cooling for it to free up again the first time so without dropping the exhaust "Y" off the engine and looking at the piston for physical damage it might be passed off as something else. Here's a classic example. Listen to the engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnizNsy8Kww

Rick Girard



 On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 5:54 AM, SS568 <david(at)paulowniatrees.com (david(at)paulowniatrees.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "SS568" <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>

 

 Thanks for the explanations.

 

 Does it usually give any warning before happening?  Such as sounds like it is laboring, misfiring, loss of rpm?

 

 David d.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345416#345416

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: Re: 447 quit

A cold seizure is what happens when the engine is comparatively cold, power is added rapidly, and the aluminum piston expands faster than the steel cylinder liner, reducing clearance. 



Here is Mike Stratman's analysis:

http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part27.pdf



The water cooled Rotax 532/582 is susceptible to a cold seizure if the water is not hot throughout the system. A long glide at idle can get the water cool, so now the thermostat closes, now the water in the radiator gets really cool because the water is hardly circulating, and then you (DOH) go to climb power. The engine starts suddenly generating serious heat so the thermostat opens and dumps the cold water from the radiator into an engine running at full power. Squeeeeak...... That is why Rotax came up with the complicated plumbing situation on the 582 Blue Head version, to try and keep the water that has gotten cool out of the engine until it gets warmed up. Also known as trying to make the engine fool proof, but we keep coming up with ways to be foolish and not give the engine what it wants.



Scenario: several years ago Vince & I were doing efficiency tests on a Ivo prop which involved climbing to altitude, pulling the power back to idle, gliding down at best glide to a predetermined altitude, and then going back to full power and climbing back to a predetermined altitude, all while carefully timing the climbs and glides.



After gliding down a couple thousand feet, the water temperature gauge always showed I had a cold engine, so I would ease the throttle back in and just arrest the descent at partial power - 4800 rpm or so - until I got it hot enough to go to full power and start another climb cycle.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: 447 quit

Thanks for the thought about the steel liner.  Although the suzuki is a different animal it shares some similarities:

all aluminum, including head, with steel liners, water cooled.

I have to wait a good period of time before takeoff because, even with a thermostat, an aluminum engine with no load

sheds a lot of heat.  At takeoff and cruise rpms it generates plenty.

Another factor, if you are using the belt redrive, is that the engine grows and at temp the slack comes out of the belt.

Not good to load it running loose.

Another reason for a thorough warmup is that, even with a water heated manifold muff, the little beast is prone to

carb icing.  I tend to stay on the ground in weather conducive to ice problems.



Even after landing at a function like a fly in, I have to wait longer than a standard airplane to get to a good engine temp.



It appears that I now have my fuel contamination issue problems taken care of and it is running perfectly.

Last year was a bad one but a learning experience.  BTW, those new heavy wall tanks look to be doing ok.

BB

MkIII, suzuki

2 blade, 70" warp drive

On 8, Jul 2011, at 12:03 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A cold seizure is what happens when the engine is comparatively cold, power is added rapidly, and the aluminum piston expands faster than the steel cylinder liner, reducing clearance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345449#345449

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: 447 quit

Rick and Jack,

  

      I went to the hanger today and started the  Firefly.  I dialed the Ivo in at 6250 rpms.  I ran it for about 30  minutes.  I made 2 takeoffs and put her right back down on the runway. All  seemed normal. Checked compression. Both cylinders read  87  lbs.   I pulled the exhaust off and looked in the ports. There  appeared to be a few shiny streaks up and down on the pistons, but I could not  feel them with my finger. The rings were all loose when pushed with a stick.  Looking back to the day it quit , I had it tied down, and running in a nose down  attitude with less than a gallon of gas so it could be it was starved for  fuel.  I am sure what to do at this point.

  

                     Ed Diebel   { In Houston  FF 62 )

  

  

                                                                                                                                                                           dated 7/4/2011 1:17:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com  writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Take off    the exhaust manifold at the port and examine the side of the piston. If it    seized that's where you'll find the damage. You're looking for vertical    streaks or scratches. If you find evidence one or both pistons seized you can    use Muriatic (concrete etch) acid on a rag to clean off the aluminum on the    cylinder walls. Be careful to only get it on the iron cylinder liner. You'll    need to replace both pistons, too.     



   Rick Girard

	


 [quote][b]

Skygeezer60

Joined: 01 Jul 2011
Posts: 1

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: Re: 447 quit

Hirth has apparantly removed the steel liners in their engines and used a nikasil coating on the cylinder wall. Since the cylinder and piston are aluminum with no steel liner between them, Hirth claims that their engines will not cold shock. Getting rid of the liner and using a modern coating on the cylinder wall has been done by snowmobile racers for ages. Is there anything to this claim by Hirth?  I would think that if it really was a true solution, Rotax would follow suit.



DonM

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: 447 quit

I would think that if it really was a true solution, Rotax would follow 

suit.



DonM

912 series engines use a coated aluminum cylinder.  New cylinder wall to 

piston clearance is .000 to .001".



Don't know about the two stroke Rotax.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:26 am Post subject: Re: 447 quit

Does the cold seizure possibility diminish as the engine gets more and more hours of use.  After maybe 50 , 100 hours.



Thanks,

David d

flyingfischead

Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 7

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:16 am Post subject: Re: 447 quit

From what I have read and heard, A sudden engine out can also be caused by pulling the throttle back and entering a steep decent causing a lean mixture and cooling air.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:02 am Post subject: Re: 447 quit

 	  SS568 wrote: 	
		  Does the cold seizure possibility diminish as the engine gets more and more hours of use.  After maybe 50 , 100 hours.



Thanks,

David d 	




Nope. Thermal expansion of the aluminum piston relative to the steel sleeve remains pretty much constant over the life of the two.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

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