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nukeflyboy
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX
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 Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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I recently went through the tribulations of deciding what to put in my panel. The good news is that we have a lot of choices. The bad news is that we have a lot of choices, and the decisions are not easy. The other bad news is that you can either spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money. Here is one man’s experience for the edification of those yet to come.
I had been paying attention to what others were buying/flying and tried to do my homework by checking the websites and list traffic. My intent was to use an all glass panel with IFR capability centered on a GNS-430 or 530. My other intent was to not spend a fortune. I am a working stiff and have to pay attention to cost. My criterion was not to buy the best available but to get the best functionality for the cost. A key part of my plan was to buy nothing until the last minute. This summer it became the last minute since besides cosmetic work all that remains on the 10 are attaching the wings, seats, and engine sensors.
My neighbors have experience with Grand Rapids, MGL, and Advanced systems, and Garmin can be found in many of the spam cans. I have visited their booths at OSH over the last several years and watched as new capabilities were added at a rapid pace. At this point the differences between them are really minimal in terms of functionality. It eventually boiled down to cost and preference.
MGL: I think these are good units but for reasons I can’t articulate, I never warmed up to them. At OSH 2010 an avionics dealer told me that they needed to work out some design issues which I understand they have done.
Advanced: Excellent units. For a while I thought that a 2 screen AF-5600 would be the choice and they really would look nice in the panel. (See Rob’s RV-10 with the 5600 upgrade- beautiful!). Functionality and support are excellent and I like the knobology (button pushing) slightly better than the GRT (particularly on the 5600 and 5500).
GRT: Two of my neighbors have been flying behind GRT systems for several years and they love them. They strongly recommended the GRT units. Again excellent functionality and support. As far as capability I would rank AFS and GRT as equals.
Navigator: I had intended to install a GNS-430 or 530 but a couple months before OSH they announced the GTN-650 and 750. I liked them and decided to go with the GTN-650. I could not cost justify the 750 since all my buds say they rarely look at the navigator, instead focusing on the PFD/MFD. This anchored one decision.
Before OSH I kept bouncing between AFS and GRT, and figured I would make the decision once I visited their booths. Once I got there, it just made my head hurt more. The problem got worse when I went by the Garmin booth, which I always do at OSH. They set up their outside tent for experimental stuff and parked next to it was Doug Reeve’s RV-6 with G3X system. I don’t normally pay a whole lot of attention to the Garmin systems because they are so expensive and out of reach with my budget. They also require an avionics shop to make the harnesses, which I was considering doing myself. Then I saw a sign that said 2 screen G3X system for $8500. Wait a minute, that’s about half what I had guessed. I looked at Doug’s panel some more and continued going between the GRT and AFS booths. I knew there were other downsides with Garmin like costly map updates (which GRT and AFS give away).
It is a given that for IFR you have to pay for the Jepp updates in the GNS-430/530/650/750. I know of no other option. In addition I understood that to get map updates on the Garmin PFD you had to buy another, separate subscription from Jepp. As a result some folks do it just once a year or so. Then the Garmin guy tells me that they struck a deal with Jepp. With the GTN-650/750 one subscription covers both the navigator updates (GTN-650) and map updates (G3X). No additional cost. One downside just disappeared. I’m back looking at Doug’s panel. Then Stein tells me that Garmin has relented and now lets builders make their own harnesses. The caveat: only experimental stuff (like the G3X) and only if the builder calls the avionics dealer for assistance. They don’t want to be bothered with builder’s problems and troubleshooting due to installation errors. The installation manuals now have public access.
Functionality
They all have synthetic vision, moving maps, XM weather interface, capability of coupled approaches with a good autopilot, and good engine monitors. There are differences between the Garmin G3X and GRT/AFS systems which give upticks to Garmin. The G3X has geo-referenced approach plates and taxi diagrams (“Safe Taxi”) and the AOPA airport directory. Neither GRT nor AFS have these built in.
Another difference is the format of Garmin vs. GRT/AFS. The Garmin is portrait while the others have a landscape look, meaning they are wider than tall. One of my friends that is building a RV-10 ruled out the G3X for this reason alone. I have to say that I also prefer the landscape format, but not that strongly.
What about number of screens? I liked the symmetry of twin AF-5600 screens (in front of each seat). However I had near unanimous opinion that two screens in front of the pilot is better: one for flight instruments and the other for navigation/WX/engine. The AF-5600 is nearly as big as some two screens in terms of square inches, but what if it craps out? Here is where I deferred to experience since I have over 1,000 hours, but all behind round gages. I will go with 2 screens in front of the pilot. This ruled out the AF-5600 due to insufficient real estate.
Cost
So now what? Functionality is similar. Sometimes you pick one “just because”. None spoke to me like that so the brain goes to the next factor: what’s the cost? Here there was a difference and not a trivial one.
Price comparisons are not easy. Each company bundles the features differently, some included, some not. For example XM costs $800 for the AFS, $550 for the GRT, and it is included in the G3X price. The number of AHRS may be different. Some charge for maps, some not. I tried to get a reasonable comparison and calculated the cost. The comparison was for 2 screens, XM, synthetic vision, moving map, single AHRS, engine monitor, and engine sensors for the IO-540. If you used the AF-5500 screens then the AFS system cost is about $14,500. The same thing with GRT (Horizon 8.4 inch) it was about $15,950. A two screen G3X similarly configured came to $10,200. Wait a minute – that is a big price difference. What if I wanted to add a third G3X screen? $2500 and just plug it in. That means the cost for a 3 screen G3X is $12,800, or about $1700-$3000 less than 2 screen AFS/GRT setups. The maintenance costs (database upgrades) are equal so in the end cost factored high. I went with the G3X. Upside: geo-reference plates and taxi diagrams, 3 screens that fit the panel nicely, cost less. Downside: portrait format, and I’m feeding the gorilla.
(Note that the above are for comparisons for the time I was shopping, there are minor adjustments to the equipment, and rounding may not make the math perfect. Prices appear to have changed for the GRT, coming down significantly based on their website today. You can usually get a 5% discount using a check and you may be able to negotiate a better deal.)
The Rest of the Panel – more decisions:
Autopilot: Went with the GX Pilot which is made for the G3X. There are others with slightly more features, but they cost a lot more.
Transponder: GTX-23ES remotely installed (behind baggage), operated from the G3X , mode S, partial ADS-B, and not a bad price. Experimental only.
Com2: SL-40. Don’t need the second VOR.
Audio panel: PMA 5000EX. Note that if you get a GTN-750 you can use a remote Garmin audio panel.
Standby instruments: a Dynon D-6 with battery backup, completely independent. No round gages on my panel and the D-6 cost less than the 3 gage backups seen in many glass panels.
ELT: ACK E-04 406 MHz
ADS-B: I’m waiting for the Garmin model to come out. Garmin blocks the NavWorx interface which is the only full capability ADS-B out there. The NavWorks does interface with GRT/AFS. The Garmin folks told me it will be released soon.
I only have 7 switches, 24 circuit breakers, and there is room for a large glove box and power plug.
There is another choice you must make and that is to go with pre-made harnesses or make your own. The Approach Fast Stack hubs are really nice and provide flexibility. Stein will also make the harnesses for you. As Stein says, it isn’t hard to do – you just trade money for time. Figure $2000 - $1000 for harnesses depending on with or without Fast Stack hub. I’m making my own and even then it is not cheap. Crimper: $400, wire: $300 - $400.
Suggestions
1. Wait to the very last minute to buy. Functionality goes up and cost goes down – frequently.
2. If cost doesn’t matter then there are other choices that you may like even better.
3. I don’t think there is a right or wrong choice. They are all good.
4. There may be other reasons to pick (I just like it!). Emotional reasons are good too.
5. Don’t attach your upper forward fuselage assembly/center cabin brace before the panel is done. This allows you to remove the entire instrument panel section to work it on the bench.
The above was my experience over the July-September time frame – prices and capabilities have probably changed since then. I hope I got the facts right and invite other comparisons and opinions. This is meant to help the next one to make a decision and to not make their head hurt like mine did.
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Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying |
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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Dave,
Sounds like you covered it all. And as you said best to wait till the very last minute. We all seem to have to go through this to get to our final decision. I ended up doing something similar going with the G900X in the -10 (4 years ago) and a dual G3X in the 8A. Unfortunately I was one of the very last 430W buyers. I was kicking myself for not getting the 530W then I saw the 650/750. A little steam came out of my ears when they were released. I have to take issue with your decision to pass on the 750 because of the way your friends use their system. I think the 650/750 are different animals and because of all the touch interface usage (LOVE the glass alpha/numeric entry) plus the large screen that 750 is an amazing unit. I played with it for 90 minutes at the Garmin store in Chicago. I can definitely see the value of the extra real-estate. Especially when you realize how the G3X works with the external GPS signal.
You might want to look as Sean's 3 screen G3X panel. Beautiful final product.
Good luck with your panel build.
Robin
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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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I'm astonished that in all that research you didn't seem to consider the Dynon Skyview.....
Do not archive
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:27 PM, "nukeflyboy" <flymoore(at)charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I recently went through the tribulations of deciding what to put in my panel. The good news is that we have a lot of choices. The bad news is that we have a lot of choices, and the decisions are not easy. The other bad news is that you can either spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money. Here is one man’s experience for the edification of those yet to come.
I had been paying attention to what others were buying/flying and tried to do my homework by checking the websites and list traffic. My intent was to use an all glass panel with IFR capability centered on a GNS-430 or 530. My other intent was to not spend a fortune. I am a working stiff and have to pay attention to cost. My criterion was not to buy the best available but to get the best functionality for the cost. A key part of my plan was to buy nothing until the last minute. This summer it became the last minute since besides cosmetic work all that remains on the 10 are attaching the wings, seats, and engine sensors.
My neighbors have experience with Grand Rapids, MGL, and Advanced systems, and Garmin can be found in many of the spam cans. I have visited their booths at OSH over the last several years and watched as new capabilities were added at a rapid pace. At this point the differences between them are really minimal in terms of functionality. It eventually boiled down to cost and preference.
MGL: I think these are good units but for reasons I can’t articulate, I never warmed up to them. At OSH 2010 an avionics dealer told me that they needed to work out some design issues which I understand they have done.
Advanced: Excellent units. For a while I thought that a 2 screen AF-5600 would be the choice and they really would look nice in the panel. (See Rob’s RV-10 with the 5600 upgrade- beautiful!). Functionality and support are excellent and I like the knobology (button pushing) slightly better than the GRT (particularly on the 5600 and 5500).
GRT: Two of my neighbors have been flying behind GRT systems for several years and they love them. They strongly recommended the GRT units. Again excellent functionality and support. As far as capability I would rank AFS and GRT as equals.
Navigator: I had intended to install a GNS-430 or 530 but a couple months before OSH they announced the GTN-650 and 750. I liked them and decided to go with the GTN-650. I could not cost justify the 750 since all my buds say they rarely look at the navigator, instead focusing on the PFD/MFD. This anchored one decision.
Before OSH I kept bouncing between AFS and GRT, and figured I would make the decision once I visited their booths. Once I got there, it just made my head hurt more. The problem got worse when I went by the Garmin booth, which I always do at OSH. They set up their outside tent for experimental stuff and parked next to it was Doug Reeve’s RV-6 with G3X system. I don’t normally pay a whole lot of attention to the Garmin systems because they are so expensive and out of reach with my budget. They also require an avionics shop to make the harnesses, which I was considering doing myself. Then I saw a sign that said 2 screen G3X system for $8500. Wait a minute, that’s about half what I had guessed. I looked at Doug’s panel some more and continued going between the GRT and AFS booths. I knew there were other downsides with Garmin like costly map updates (which GRT and AFS give away).
It is a given that for IFR you have to pay for the Jepp updates in the GNS-430/530/650/750. I know of no other option. In addition I understood that to get map updates on the Garmin PFD you had to buy another, separate subscription from Jepp. As a result some folks do it just once a year or so. Then the Garmin guy tells me that they struck a deal with Jepp. With the GTN-650/750 one subscription covers both the navigator updates (GTN-650) and map updates (G3X). No additional cost. One downside just disappeared. I’m back looking at Doug’s panel. Then Stein tells me that Garmin has relented and now lets builders make their own harnesses. The caveat: only experimental stuff (like the G3X) and only if the builder calls the avionics dealer for assistance. They don’t want to be bothered with builder’s problems and troubleshooting due to installation errors. The installation manuals now have public access.
Functionality
They all have synthetic vision, moving maps, XM weather interface, capability of coupled approaches with a good autopilot, and good engine monitors. There are differences between the Garmin G3X and GRT/AFS systems which give upticks to Garmin. The G3X has geo-referenced approach plates and taxi diagrams (“Safe Taxiâ€) and the AOPA airport directory. Neither GRT nor AFS have these built in.
Another difference is the format of Garmin vs. GRT/AFS. The Garmin is portrait while the others have a landscape look, meaning they are wider than tall. One of my friends that is building a RV-10 ruled out the G3X for this reason alone. I have to say that I also prefer the landscape format, but not that strongly.
What about number of screens? I liked the symmetry of twin AF-5600 screens (in front of each seat). However I had near unanimous opinion that two screens in front of the pilot is better: one for flight instruments and the other for navigation/WX/engine. The AF-5600 is nearly as big as some two screens in terms of square inches, but what if it craps out? Here is where I deferred to experience since I have over 1,000 hours, but all behind round gages. I will go with 2 screens in front of the pilot. This ruled out the AF-5600 due to insufficient real estate.
Cost
So now what? Functionality is similar. Sometimes you pick one “just becauseâ€. None spoke to me like that so the brain goes to the next factor: what’s the cost? Here there was a difference and not a trivial one.
Price comparisons are not easy. Each company bundles the features differently, some included, some not. For example XM costs $800 for the AFS, $550 for the GRT, and it is included in the G3X price. The number of AHRS may be different. Some charge for maps, some not. I tried to get a reasonable comparison and calculated the cost. The comparison was for 2 screens, XM, synthetic vision, moving map, single AHRS, engine monitor, and engine sensors for the IO-540. If you used the AF-5500 screens then the AFS system cost is about $14,500. The same thing with GRT (Horizon 8.4 inch) it was about $15,950. A two screen G3X similarly configured came to $10,200. Wait a minute – that is a big price difference. What if I wanted to add a third G3X screen? $2500 and just plug it in. That means the cost for a 3 screen G3X is $12,800, or about $1700-$3000 less than 2 screen AFS/GRT setups. The maintenance costs (database upgrades) are equal so in the end cost factored high. I went with the G3X. Upside: geo-reference plates and taxi diagrams, 3 screens that fit the panel nicely, cost less. Downside: portrait format, and I’m feeding the gorilla.
(Note that the above are for comparisons for the time I was shopping, there are minor adjustments to the equipment, and rounding may not make the math perfect. Prices appear to have changed for the GRT, coming down significantly based on their website today. You can usually get a 5% discount using a check and you may be able to negotiate a better deal.)
The Rest of the Panel – more decisions:
Autopilot: Went with the GX Pilot which is made for the G3X. There are others with slightly more features, but they cost a lot more.
Transponder: GTX-23ES remotely installed (behind baggage), operated from the G3X , mode S, partial ADS-B, and not a bad price. Experimental only.
Com2: SL-40. Don’t need the second VOR.
Audio panel: PMA 5000EX. Note that if you get a GTN-750 you can use a remote Garmin audio panel.
Standby instruments: a Dynon D-6 with battery backup, completely independent. No round gages on my panel and the D-6 cost less than the 3 gage backups seen in many glass panels.
ELT: ACK E-04 406 MHz
ADS-B: I’m waiting for the Garmin model to come out. Garmin blocks the NavWorx interface which is the only full capability ADS-B out there. The NavWorks does interface with GRT/AFS. The Garmin folks told me it will be released soon.
I only have 7 switches, 24 circuit breakers, and there is room for a large glove box and power plug.
There is another choice you must make and that is to go with pre-made harnesses or make your own. The Approach Fast Stack hubs are really nice and provide flexibility. Stein will also make the harnesses for you. As Stein says, it isn’t hard to do – you just trade money for time. Figure $2000 - $1000 for harnesses depending on with or without Fast Stack hub. I’m making my own and even then it is not cheap. Crimper: $400, wire: $300 - $400.
Suggestions
1. Wait to the very last minute to buy. Functionality goes up and cost goes down – frequently.
2. If cost doesn’t matter then there are other choices that you may like even better.
3. I don’t think there is a right or wrong choice. They are all good.
4. There may be other reasons to pick (I just like it!). Emotional reasons are good too.
5. Don’t attach your upper forward fuselage assembly/center cabin brace before the panel is done. This allows you to remove the entire instrument panel section to work it on the bench.
The above was my experience over the July-September time frame – prices and capabilities have probably changed since then. I hope I got the facts right and invite other comparisons and opinions. This is meant to help the next one to make a decision and to not make their head hurt like mine did.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
Rest almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355740#355740
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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I"m sure you'll get lots of responses. Keep in mind that it's human nature not to be too critical of one's self, so everyone - myself included - will love what they did!
The G3X was not available when I bought, and I must say, it looks attractively priced. I have a secret fear that the EFIS companies may drive the autopilot companies out of business, and that Garmin may then drive the EFIS companies out, and then be left, again, as a monopoly...
Nor was the Sky View system out yet, when I started cutting metal....
I went with the GRT HX/HS pair, plus EIS. HX in front of left seat, HS right of center but not fully in front of right seat. From lots of 182 hours I'm used to looking to the right for engine instruments, so this works for me. I also like the landscape mode and, unlike many others, I mounted the EFIS units relatively low in the panel (the GRT fit with no cutting of ribs). This works for me because I'm relatively short (seat one notch back from full forward) and I wear bi-focals. With the EFIS low in the panel, my head is looking straight out the windscreen but the EFIS is in focus. This won't work as well for those of you young enough or lucky enough to not need bi-focals (yet!). I strongly recommend everyone sit in the airplane at the proper height and location, and look at paper mock ups, to see how it works for you.
I went with a SL-30/G420 (not 430) pair just to split the nav radios, so if one quit I still had the other. The SL-40/G430 route would have saved almost a $1K. Also, the SL-30 is a much better VOR than the 430, it can still be used following a complete EFIS failure. It's also easier to wire.
Like you, I have a D-6 backup, and I've done an a VOR approach (hood, during IPC) using just the D-6 and the SL-30 (using built in CDI), and that works fine.
I built my own audio panel. I'm surprised more builders don't do this. The PS panel is a great audio panel (my former aircraft had one) but the do-it-yourself route works just fine, I got what I wanted (independent volume controls for pilot and passenger for intercom, radio, and music) and it cost about $50 and 3 days of my time.
I really like the Trio autopilot. Not sure about the G3 version, but the Trio Pro can be ordered with "auto trim". Not only will it keep the elevator in trim while the autopilot is on; it can also be used to trim, manually, even when the servos are not engaged. The trim speed is adjustable by software to run slower as airspeed picks up. I use it rather than the stick trim (which runs full speed) to trim in cruise. It also provides a trim backup, should the stick switch stick on and you need to pull the trim breaker. (It also makes for another mode for trim runaway, so I put the autopilot and trim breakers together, right in front of the pilot.)
I also really like the GRT EIS (engine instrument system). I put the red warning light in front of the pilot. Let me be honest, I never used to look at the ammeter, or even the oil pressure, that often in the 182. Now, the EIS looks for me! (I think it's even more important to monitor the amps, in an all electric plane). Coming from the "fuel on both" 182, the EIS also nags me every 30 minutes to switch tanks. On start up, the red light is on; I switch on the alternator, and the red light goes off. If it ever doesn't, I can look at the EIS to see if it's oil pressure, alternator, or whatever that's an issue. No need to wait for the EFIS to boot up. Although, at some point, I may put in a secondary battery so I can boot up the EFIS prior to engine start.
Another comment: the independent dealers, like Stein, can usually get you a discount from list prices, as well as good service.
Final comment: I riveted the front section in place before the avionics work. The only trying work was anchoring the radio rack to the forward subpanel. So much goes in from the front, I just left a little slack in the wiring, attached the plugs then installed (from the front). I did have to reach up underneath to bundle up the slack, but that wasn't that much of an ordeal.
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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I went through this decision process last year. It can get painful.
My criteria was similar to yours - and with "biggest bang for the buck" as the overriding factor. I really like GRT but consider the autopilot too pricey, and after you all it all up the GRT system was out of my price range. I decided to go with the Dynon Skyview for the following reasons:
- I have a small Dynon EFIS in my RV-8A. It works perfectly and the customer support I received is better than any vendor I have worked with.
- Dynon does their own autopilot - so total autopilot cost is $1500 as compared to $4000+ with the other options and pilot reports on the units are good.
- Dynon offers a mode S behind the panel transponder - you save $1000 over the Garmin option and have more panel space. The unit is well known and has a very good reputation.
- Dynon will soon provide a behind the panel comm radio. Again you save cash and panel space for the Comm #2 requirement. The EFIS itself fulfills the Nav 2 function as it has an independent GPS system.
- With the (2) 10" displays you are still below the other options cost and you get a better visual presentation.
- I choose the Garmin GNS-670. I got it from Stark avionics at a very nice price.
So the panel has (2) 10" EFIS displays, and audio panel, the GNS-670, and altimeter and an airspeed instrument (I could not get myself to go without these two steam gauges).
This install is not to be confused with a G1000 or similar panel - but it meets my needs and price range.
Carl
Just finished clear coat on the fuselage a couple of hours ago.
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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I'm curious, is there any real world experience yet on how easy or hard the new Garmin touch screens are to use, in turbulence?
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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Carl,
Just to show how fast things change: what you said was true when you bought, a year ago. But now GRT offers their own autopilot for about $2k or slightly less. For a while they had an intro price of $1K.
This was why I commented that I fear Trio and TruTrak may be driven out of business by the EFIS companies. Of course the EFIS driven autopilots do not have the redundancy that a true stand-alone autopilot offers. If the EFIS quits, so does their autopilot.
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Bob Turner
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Strasnuts
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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Dave, I have 115 hours on my 3 screen G3X and loving every minute of it. The iBBS back-up battery works great with the system. The system has dedicated pinouts for the iBBS. I also have the D6 as a AHRS/MAG back-up with an internal battery. I was also one of the last 430W buyers but would jump on the GTN750 if it was available. I played with one too and super user friendly. A lot less button pushing compared to the 430W or 530W. All the new jets have G1000/G3000/G5000 with touch pads so the touch screen is where it is going and turbulence must not be a factor if these are getting approved. I think turning a knob and pushing buttons in turbulence might be harder than using the grips and pushing a touch screen but I have no real experience in turbulence while using the touch screen. I seam to get by pushing my iphone touch screen while I'm listening to music through my audio panel.
Here are some pics of mine . I need new ones to show my interior panels from Aerosport.
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RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
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Strasnuts
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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As far as the ADS-b, I have both the in/out with the G3X. I have the GTS800 TAS with ADS-b in and the GTX330(es) for the out. It's expensive compared to the Navworx but includes active TAS and works everywhere. I wired the entire panel. Garmin's installation manuals tell you everything you need to know, you just have to read A LOT!
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RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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I know nothing about the new Garmins except that they're touch screen. But two people have now commented that they think the rather huge uptick in cost from a 430 to a 750 is worthwhile. I'd like to know why, specifically. As far as I can tell it gains you no capability, just ease of use.
I have flown behind a 530 and a 430, and, given that TIS and WX can be displayed on an EFIS, I could not justify the cost of the 530 to myself.
So I, too, wish Garmin had introduced the 650/750 several years ago. But not so I could buy one. Instead, I'd hope enough people traded in their 430's that I could find a good used one at a great price! (Not sure that has happened yet).
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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Yep - competition is a wonderful thing.
Carl
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nukeflyboy
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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About the comment on the Dynon Skyview - I did not consider it because of three reasons. First, they work only with their own autopilot which is internal to the EFIS. In the event of an EFIS failure you are out of luck but with all the other units, assuming you are using an external A/P, the A/P will fly the airplane. Second, it does not have XM weather capability. Third, it can not do a complete coupled approach, lacking vertical navigation. While I think the Skyview is a really nice unit (and may put one in my VFR RV-6), it did not measure up to the other choices. I'm sure some will disagree with me about whether these are worthy points or not.
I hope Dynon catches up but they seem more interested in the LSA and VFR market.
I wish I had the GTN-750 rather than the 650 because it is a joy to look at and use. From a pure functional standpoint it does not do much more than the 650 but if I recall, cost about $6-7K more. My heart told me to buy it but my brain overrode.
I like the panel shots. The G3X fits the panel nicely without being overcrowded. I have mounted all the avionics and was also able to do it without touching the ribs in front of the panel.
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RV-6 built and sold
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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After looking at AFS, Dynon and G3X the last 3 days....to my old eyes
the G3X is just to small....not to mention their expensive options and
update prices.
Dynon---vertical nav on autopilot is coming, probably in 6-9 months.
ADS-B weather and ability to display sectional, enroute and approach
charts are high priority for future features. Vertical nav is apparently
going to require an external control panel similar to what they had on
their legacy products. Also coming is Com radio, remotely mounted with a
very small control head, similar to AP control head.
AFS seems to be the most advanced at this point. They seem to be able to
implement new features more quickly than others. Only downside I see is
the size of the bezel, due to more hardware knobs and buttons and price.
Current screens(5000 series) have significantly less depth than earlier
versions. Other advantage is AHARS built-in, so only magnetometer needs
to be mounted elsewhere on airframe. All of the above work with VPX from
Vertical Power. Glad I have a few more months before I need to make a
decision.
On 10/22/2011 7:59 PM, nukeflyboy wrote:
| Quote: |
About the comment on the Dynon Skyview - I did not consider it because of three reasons. First, they work only with their own autopilot which is internal to the EFIS. In the event of an EFIS failure you are out of luck but with all the other units, assuming you are using an external A/P, the A/P will fly the airplane. Second, it does not have XM weather capability. Third, it can not do a complete coupled approach, lacking vertical navigation. While I think the Skyview is a really nice unit (and may put one in my VFR RV-6), it did not measure up to the other choices. I'm sure some will disagree with me about whether these are worthy points or not.
I hope Dynon catches up but they seem more interested in the LSA and VFR market.
I wish I had the GTN-750 rather than the 650 because it is a joy to look at and use. From a pure functional standpoint it does not do much more than the 650 but if I recall, cost about $6-7K more. My heart told me to buy it but my brain overrode.
I like the panel shots. The G3X fits the panel nicely without being overcrowded. I have mounted all the avionics and was also able to do it without touching the ribs in front of the panel.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
Rest almost done
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Strasnuts
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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Size of the G3X screens was a big concern of mine before and when I got them. They are great when actually using them. They are only two feet away and probably have the same font size as the competition. I have flown behind Cheltons, GRT, AFS, G1000, SPZ5000, Primus 1000, Proline21, and the DA900EASy. I think Garmin has all you need in these boxes plus some. I like mine more than any of the others but again it's mine. The landscape is more broad in some of the others with synthetic vision, but the same info is there. As far as databases....well I spend 1300 per year on the Garmin bundle and the XM so that could be a lot better. Hopefully that will come down. I see they have a special with the 750 but that doesn't help me with my 430w.
I think ease of use with the GTN 750 is the gain in capability.
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rene(at)felker.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: Panel Choice |
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I have the GRT system and have not flown behind other systems....but want to
give my opinion, take it for what it is worth. 
I have not updated my GRT system to the HX screens and thus do not have
synthetic Vision, but I do have one HS screen and one WS screen. I have a
separate trutrak autopilot.
I really like what I have.....here are the biggest pro's
The autopilot is separate from the EFIS and can fly the plane without any
external input. This was one of my original requirements and it performs
great. Take off...turn on course and establish climb rate.....turn on
autopilot and it is good to go. Easy to change track and rate of
climb....great backup. It has a great interface with the GRT system and I
have a switch that allows the autopilot to be commanded by the EFIS or 430.
GRT system is easy to use and fully integrated with the EIS. Both screens
provide all functions.
Data are free............
Customer support is great........
Synthetic approach is great along with HITS....
Extended runway centerlines...
Airport information is good......but I really use Wing X for all of that.
But when you need it, it is great to be there. I was on a local flight on
Friday and decided to fly up in the mountains (it is what he kids wanted to
do) and could not remember the a frequency and instead of pulling my paper
chart out (I do carry a paper chart for the local area....but not for
outside the local area, I use Wing X) I just hit a couple of buttons and got
the frequency. Also, if I look the Freq up on the GRT, I can push it to my
SL30.
Rene'
801-721-6080
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: Panel Choice |
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WOW! spending $1300 a year just for Database updates is a reason to NOT go with Garmin. I think you need to consider not just the initial cost but also the cost of ownership. Heck for that kind of money I could replace my EFIS units in the panel every 5 years or so. Keeps you up to date with technology too!
Just food for thought.
Jim Combs
N312F - Flying dual AFS EFIS.
Do Not archive
[quote][b]
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nukeflyboy
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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Garmin update costs were a concern to me too initially but don't miss my point (in my lengthy note!) that with the 650/750 the update costs are the same as for everyone else. It comes with the IFR subscription, no extra charge for the map. If you have a 430/530/650/750 and you fly IFR then you pay a subscription cost for the database. With the G3X and 650/750 you get the map update free from Jepp. With GRT/AFS you get the map updates from GRT/AFS no charge, when they decide to send an update.
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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Ok, but do apples to apples.
First, if you just use the GRT/AFS database, I'm not 100% positive but
I'm doubtful you'll get actual JEPP data, and if not, or perhaps even
if, you won't be getting Jepp APPROACHES with your data. Then your
system really doesn't have that same level of IFR capabilities. You're
relegated to using approach plates and flying the approaches using
other references to get to your various waypoints.
So you want to make it more apples to apples, which means you have to
factor in the cost of your garmin updates for the IFR device (430W
or similar) that you connect to your AFS/GRT system....well, those are
gonna cost you a few hundred dollars a year.
Certainly there's still a delta in cost between doing that and going
all out with the $1300/yr package, but you get far more data
components for that cost than you get with just updating a 430W.
So it's all relative. In the end, IFR is a pay to play activity.
For most people, it is NOT worth the added cost to be 100% equipped
and ready for an IFR flight across the US...it's far too much money
for additional biannual tests, data subscriptions, and things of
that nature. But people don't do it to save money, they do it to
be able to reach a destination despite some weather in the way.
To NOT cancel that trip just due to some low ceilings and miserable
weather down low. Or, just because it's a super fun challenge.
In the end, after flying in Sean's plane with a G3X, I came to
the conclusion that for the money, you can't beat that system
these days, and personally I'd even choose it over a G900 panel,
since you can do 3 screens across. It's a perfect fit for
the RV-10. If he wants to save some data costs, he can drop some
of the subscriptions for various components....some of what he
subscribes to could be done on an iPad for less money. Either way,
I think his panel is far more IFR ready than going with some of
the other experimental EFIS systems.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
On 10/23/2011 2:42 PM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | WOW! spending $1300 a year just for Database updates is a reason to NOT
go with Garmin. I think you need to consider not just the initial cost
but also the cost of ownership. Heck for that kind of money I could
replace my EFIS units in the panel every 5 years or so. Keeps you up to
date with technology too!
Just food for thought.
Jim Combs
N312F - Flying dual AFS EFIS.
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Panel Choice |
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Just to add on to "apples to apples..."
Don't forget the quoted $1300 includes xm weather (up to $600/yr depending on subscription). I don't think anyone else was including that cost in their discussion.
OTOH: Is anyone NOT doing biennial pitot/static/transponder inspections, as I thought Tim was implying? To not do so would restrict you to below 10,000', 30 nm away from all Class B, and no Class C, areas.
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: Panel Choice |
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Why would that cost enter into the decisions? Whether you fly with
steam gauges and a KX170B or equiv, you would need static system and
transponder checked. (pitot only gets hooked up to protect the
airspeed bellows, there is not testing required of it). If one
chooses a VFR certification, cost can be under $100.
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | OTOH: Is anyone NOT doing biennial pitot/static/transponder inspections, as I thought Tim was implying? To not do so would restrict you to below 10,000', 30 nm away from all Class B, and no Class C, areas.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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