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Bing Carb Failure

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

Happened yesterday, RANS S-7, pilot landed, put the airplane away, went inside. Came back 2 hours later, 2 or 3  gallons of gas on the floor.



One of the float pins came out and the gas ran out the bottom of the float bowl.  Engine is a 912ULS, serial # is 5648894, carb serial # is 072585, this engine has approx 150 hours.



The pin is not knurled, it is just pressed into the bottom of the float bowl. Since a lot of the people on this list use the 912, thought it would be of interest.

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Bing Carb Failure

Thanks for the heads up, Richard. Of all the Bing 64 and 94 carbs I've taken apart I've never seen any indication that these pins were in any way loose. There is another pin, which acts as a hinge pin for the floats, that goes through the light gage ss part(11) that the float bears on. This other pin is knurled on one end so that it stays seated firmly in the cast metal part of the carb body. The pin I am referring to is labeled 12 in the attached image. 



It appears that the pin that fell out of one of the floats in your photo was due to a manufacturing defect. The float (item 10 in attached image) comes with these pins permanently installed, or so they should be.

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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

One of the float pins came out and the gas ran out the bottom of the float

bowl.  Engine is a 912ULS, serial # is 5648894, carb serial # is 072585,

this engine has approx 150 hours.



The pin is not knurled, it is just pressed into the bottom of the float

bowl. Since a lot of the people on this list use the 912, thought it would

be of interest.



--------

Richard Pike

 



Richard P/Gang:



The carb is designed to prevent the float pivot pin from being able to come

out as long as the float bowl is attached to the carb.  It is Murphy proof.

The front of the float bowl is considerably more narrow than the rear

portion.  This is the part of the float bowl that the float bowl bail slides

over and into its locked position.



Can't remember for sure because it has been many years since I had a two

stroke Bing carb apart, but believe the float bowl and float pivot pin is

similarly designed.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Bing Carb Failure

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  One of the float pins came out and the gas ran out the bottom of the float

bowl.  Engine is a 912ULS, serial # is 5648894, carb serial # is 072585,

this engine has approx 150 hours.



The pin is not knurled, it is just pressed into the bottom of the float

bowl. Since a lot of the people on this list use the 912, thought it would

be of interest.



--------

Richard Pike

 



Richard P/Gang:



The carb is designed to prevent the float pivot pin from being able to come

out as long as the float bowl is attached to the carb.  It is Murphy proof.

The front of the float bowl is considerably more narrow than the rear

portion.  This is the part of the float bowl that the float bowl bail slides

over and into its locked position.



Can't remember for sure because it has been many years since I had a two

stroke Bing carb apart, but believe the float bowl and float pivot pin is

similarly designed.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




You are correct, the two stroke is the same design, the float pivot pin cannot come out as long as the float bowl is in place. But this is a totally different pin, and it is not knurled, it is tapered where it goes into the float bowl. I concur with Thom's assessment that this was a bad part. On the other hand, it would be something easy to check, by dropping the float bowl and giving it the wiggle test.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

You are correct, the two stroke is the same design, the float pivot pin

cannot come out as long as the float bowl is in place. But this is a totally

different pin, and it is not knurled, it is tapered where it goes into the

float bowl. I concur with Thom's assessment that this was a bad part. On the

other hand, it would be something easy to check, by dropping the float bowl

and giving it the wiggle test.



--------

Richard Pike

 



Sorry, I misunderstood which pin you were talking about.



I think you are talking about the float guide pin.  That would ruin your day

is if came loose.



Wonder if the remaining float would work well enough to get back on the

ground with a little power.



Murphy never rests.  First time I have heard of this particular problem.



This gent's problem happened on the ground, I assume.  Or maybe it happened

in the air and he didn't realize it until he discovered the fuel needle was

not sealing.   ????



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Bing Carb Failure

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

 



Sorry, I misunderstood which pin you were talking about.



I think you are talking about the float guide pin.  That would ruin your day

is if came loose.



Wonder if the remaining float would work well enough to get back on the

ground with a little power.



Murphy never rests.  First time I have heard of this particular problem.



This gent's problem happened on the ground, I assume.  Or maybe it happened

in the air and he didn't realize it until he discovered the fuel needle was

not sealing.   ????



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




He realized it when he went back out into his hangar and found several gallons of gas all over the floor under his airplane. Picture 015 shows that it was one of the two pins that are seated into the bottom of the float bowl and the floats slide up and down on them. Surprisingly it looks from the picture that the end that goes into the float is slightly rounded but that's all, not knurled or anything. Still unclear when it came out, he had taken off from an airport about 15 miles away and flown home, landed and taxied in. His strip is smoother than mine, but still somewhat bumpy. When he pushed it into the hangar there was no gas smell or evidence of leakage, so I would assume it came out right at the end of taxiing in, and whatever fuel began to leak wasn't enough to attract attention. I know this pilot well, he is mechanically very sharp and does not tolerate anything unusual. Very fortunate that he did not turn the fuel valve off, or the failure would probably not have manifested itself by all that fuel leaking out the hole in the bottom of the bowl.  Don't know if or how the engine would have run on the next startup, but if it didn't run bad enough to attract notice, things could have gone very badly.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:31 am Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

ok    if the float guide pin, (mounted in the bottom of the float bowl, at 1 

end only)   came out,  then the float needle would not get the proper 

pressure to seal,,,,,,  my next question is  where did the pressure in the 

fuel system come from to continue to flow gas up to the carb and on the 

floor?

boyd

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

Boyd

  

 He said it was a Rans-S7.  I think they have high wing  tanks.  Gravity let fuel down to carb.  He said owner did not turn off  the gas valve.

  

 Bill Varnes

  

  In a message dated 10/29/2011 1:31:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "b young"    <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com>



ok    if the float guide    pin, (mounted in the bottom of the float bowl, at 1 

end only)      came out,  then the float needle would not get the proper 

pressure to    seal,,,,,,  my next question is  where did the pressure in the    

fuel system come from to continue to flow gas up to the carb and on the    

floor?

boyd  e  ies  ay                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS               - List Contribution Web Site  p;                             



	


 [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Bing Carb Failure

There are pictures attached to this report.  Look at them if you get a chance.  From looking at the pictures the guide pins,  are inserted into holes that are drilled all the way through the float bowl.  When the pin falls out, there is just a hole in the bottom of the float bowl for the fuel to drip out.

 	  byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c wrote: 	
		  ok    if the float guide pin, (mounted in the bottom of the float bowl, at 1 

end only)   came out,  then the float needle would not get the proper 

pressure to seal,,,,,,  my next question is  where did the pressure in the 

fuel system come from to continue to flow gas up to the carb and on the 

floor?

boyd

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

There are pictures attached to this report.  Look at them if you get a

chance.  From looking at the pictures the guide pins,  are inserted into

holes that are drilled all the way through the float bowl.  When the pin

falls out, there is just a hole in the bottom of the float bowl for the fuel

to drip out.

*************************************

 



Do you have a url for the report?



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Bing Carb Failure

I am talking about Richards  report of the incident right here in this very thread you are posting in.  I realize that some people might not have access to the pictures or might not bother to look at them.  But if you do, it clears up all confusion about what pin it is and the fact that when the pin comes out there is just a hole in the bottom of the float bowl.  

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  There are pictures attached to this report.  Look at them if you get a

chance.  From looking at the pictures the guide pins,  are inserted into

holes that are drilled all the way through the float bowl.  When the pin

falls out, there is just a hole in the bottom of the float bowl for the fuel

to drip out.

*************************************

 



Do you have a url for the report?



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:59 am Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

I am talking about Richards  report of the incident right here in this very

thread you are posting in.   

Jason/Gang:



Thanks for the info.  I missed it first time around.



I don't normally follow the Kolb BBS, but receive the antiquated email Kolb

List.  That is why I missed the photos of the float bowl.



Just pulled the float bowls a couple days ago, before Rev posted the

problem.  In the future when I pull the float bowls, I'll make sure the

guide pins are still secure.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Bing Carb Failure

Got this update this morning from Dean Vogel at Lockwood Aviation:



"We have seen that issue with the float bowls before.  I have â€“ for a while now â€“ included the checking of that detail in the Maintenance training class when we go through the carburetors.  The only solution is to replace the float bowl."



On the other hand, since this is East Tennessee, and we do things our own way - the owner reamed the hole a hair larger, packed it with JB Weld, and drove the pin in FIRMLY.



Will keep ya posted...

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Failure

"The only solution is to replace the float bowl."



If you are selling Bing parts, that is the only way .



Thom



On Oct 30, 2011, at 6:15 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Got this update this morning from Dean Vogel at Lockwood Aviation:



 "We have seen that issue with the float bowls before.  I have â€“ for a while now â€“ included the checking of that detail in the Maintenance training class when we go through the carburetors.  The only solution is to replace the float bowl."



 On the other hand, since this is East Tennessee, and we do things our own way - the owner reamed the hole a hair larger, packed it with JB Weld, and drove the pin in FIRMLY.



 Will keep ya posted...



 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 Hebrews 11:1





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356353#356353

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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