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rudder bearing play

 
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mhubel



Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.

I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.


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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Mark,

I don't know if this is a common problem; but I recall seeing a video of Gus Warren on pre-flighting a 601XL where he cautions to check this joint for excessive wear and play.

Jay






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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:21 am    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Same here. I have seen that some people used bronze bushings on the part that is fixed on the fuselage. I'd like to do that, but I am nervous about minimum edge distance.

Michel

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 15, 2011, at 20:54, "mhubel" <mhubel(at)nemon.com> wrote:

Quote:


I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.

I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.

--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
70 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com




Read this topic online here:

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psm(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:25 am    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.

After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the portion
of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the hole. I
think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is rotating
against the aluminum bracket.

I don't know what I will do about this. Perhaps a slightly larger steel
tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner tube to
move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction on this
approach, but some axle grease might help.

Paul
Camas, WA
XL through 20 hours of phase I testing
On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
Quote:


I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.

I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.

--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
70 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163



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mhubel



Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Paul,
Given what I thought was a design that had the potential to have a
problem here, I am looking at some other solutions. If I find anything
that works, I will post it. I expect to be working on it this week.

On 10/16/2011 2:22 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
Quote:


Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.

After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the portion
of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the hole. I
think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is rotating
against the aluminum bracket.

I don't know what I will do about this. Perhaps a slightly larger
steel tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner
tube to move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction
on this approach, but some axle grease might help.

Paul
Camas, WA
XL through 20 hours of phase I testing
On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
>
>
> I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in
> my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3
> bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.
>
> I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I
> wonder if many others have noted this.
>
> --------
> Mark Hubelbank
> N708HU
> CH601XL
> Jabiru 3300
> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
> Sensenich ground adj prop.
> 70 hr TAF
> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163
>


--
Mark Hubelbank
NorthEast Monitoring
2 Clock Tower Place
Suite 555
Maynard, MA, 01754 - USA
mhubel(at)nemon.com
978-443-3955


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_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
Back to top
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I currently have my rudder and horizontal stabilizer removed. To make a
long story short, before removal the "Chief" mechanic on my field was
looking at it and started moving the stab back and forth. I guess the
tips moved around 1/2 inch from front to rear. I told him I would
tighten the bolts holding it in place and he just laughed saying he
never liked this design. He also said something about how the stab
should be attached with steel instead of aluminum.

After wiggling it and tightening the bolts and wiggling it some more I
took it for a flight. After the flight it seemed to move a little bit
more than before. I decided to take the stab off and take a good look
to try to discover the source of the movement. It became obvious after
removing it and the rudder (it wouldn't come off without taking off the
rudder too) that the mounting brackets (6B3-3, 6b3-4 in current parts
database, 6B1-8 and 6B1-9 in my set of drawings) were bending. I
decided to replace them with steel.

Then this discussion came up and I looked to see significant wear on the
heavy aluminum angle (lower hinge?) for the rudder. This comes as no
surprise since the steel tube is rubbing against aluminum and the rudder
cables tensioned to 25 pounds each provide a 50 pound force grinding the
steel into the aluminum. It must be a real problem for others who have
more than 20 hours on their planes.

My first thought was to get a piece of steel tube just larger than the
current one and press it into the aluminum. Then I heard someone
suggest bronze bushing and looked at McMaster Carr for the material. My
first cut located much larger bushing stock - starting at 1 inch O.D.
with 1/4 inch walls.

For now I am hoping you get a brighter idea than any of mine. I have
not found any aircraft steel angles, and I could put hardware store
steel in there but am reluctant to do that. I guess I could try to bend
a 4130 flat into a right angle but that sounds like a big job - that is
pretty tough stuff.

I anxiously await your own efforts. Perhaps we can find a solution to
this horrible design that actually works well.

Paul
XL 20 hours into phase I testing.

On 10/16/2011 3:20 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:
Quote:


Paul,
Given what I thought was a design that had the potential to have a
problem here, I am looking at some other solutions. If I find anything
that works, I will post it. I expect to be working on it this week.

On 10/16/2011 2:22 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
>
> Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.
>
> After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the
> portion of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the
> hole. I think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is
> rotating against the aluminum bracket.
>
> I don't know what I will do about this. Perhaps a slightly larger
> steel tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner
> tube to move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction
> on this approach, but some axle grease might help.
>
> Paul
> Camas, WA
> XL through 20 hours of phase I testing
> On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
>>
>>
>> I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing
>> in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the
>> AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.
>>
>> I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I
>> wonder if many others have noted this.
>>
>> --------
>> Mark Hubelbank
>> N708HU
>> CH601XL
>> Jabiru 3300
>> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
>> Sensenich ground adj prop.
>> 70 hr TAF
>> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

I made a design for an Oilite bearing in the Rudder of my CH701. The 4130 steel tube is clamped by the through bolt and rotates in the bearing which can be replaced if it should wear. I do not like steel in aluminum as a bearing pair. Picture attached. I did a similar design for all of the rotating bearings on the wings and stab of the 701. Lubricate at assembly with MoS2 grease. Remember our airplanes are Experimental so use the design at your own risk.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 12:25:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net writes:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>

Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.

After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the portion
of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the hole. I
think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is rotating
against the aluminum bracket.

I don't know what I will do about this. Perhaps a slightly larger steel
tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner tube to
move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction on this
approach, but some axle grease might help.

Paul
Camas, WA
XL through 20 hours of phase I testing
On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
Quote:
-->  Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel(at)nemon.com>

I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.

I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.

--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
70 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163





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psm(at)att.net
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Hi John,

Thanks for the drawing and comments on the rudder bearings.

I'm not familiar with Oilite or sintered bronze. Can you give me any clues where to get that stuff and what form it takes? Do I order bearings or just the material and machine it to my design?

Thanks,

Paul

On 10/16/2011 3:53 PM, JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote] I made a design for an Oilite bearing in the Rudder of my CH701. The 4130 steel tube is clamped by the through bolt and rotates in the bearing which can be replaced if it should wear. I do not like steel in aluminum as a bearing pair. Picture attached. I did a similar design for all of the rotating bearings on the wings and stab of the 701. Lubricate at assembly with MoS2 grease. Remember our airplanes are Experimental so use the design at your own risk.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 12:25:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> (psm(at)att.net)

Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.

After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the portion
of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the hole. I
think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is rotating
against the aluminum bracket.

I don't know what I will do about this. Perhaps a slightly larger steel
tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner tube to
move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction on this
approach, but some axle grease might help.

Paul
Camas, WA
XL through 20 hours of phase I testing


On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel(at)nemon.com> (mhubel(at)nemon.com)
>
> I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.
>
> I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.
>
> --------
> Mark Hubelbank
> N708HU
> CH601XL
> Jabiru 3300
> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
> Sensenich ground adj prop.
> 70 hr TAF
> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




[b]


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

 
This is what I was thinking... What is the edge distance on the bearing part that the bushing is installed? Is there enough aluminum left?

----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
From: "JohnDRead(at)aol.com" <JohnDRead(at)aol.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:53:07 PM
Subject: Re: rudder bearing play

I made a design for an Oilite bearing in the Rudder of my CH701. The 4130 steel tube is clamped by the through bolt and rotates in the bearing which can be replaced if it should wear. I do not like steel in aluminum as a bearing pair. Picture attached. I did a similar design for all of the rotating bearings on the wings and stab of the 701. Lubricate at assembly with MoS2 grease. Remember our airplanes are Experimental so use the design at your own risk.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

The best fix for this would be a Bell crank bearing like this http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/bearings_bellcrank.html but you would then have the rudder too far aft and the rear saddle would look funny. So another fix would be to use an Aurora bearing upper and lower like this http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/bearings_aurora.html But you would have to install a nut plate to the backside (inside) of the rudder along with a doublers on the outside.

Every 601 I have done upgrades to have had to have the bushings replaced so the extra effort involved in opening up the rudder would be time well spent to fix this.

Jeff

[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Hi Paul,
 The manufacturer of the bearings I used for the rudder mod is Symmco Inc. www.symmco.com in Sykesville PA. The Upper Rudder bearing is p/n SF-812-5 the Lower Rudder bearing is p/n SF-812-4. You can download their catalog from their web site. I reamed the holes in the plates to 0.0375, the bearings are 0.377 OD which gives a light press fit into the plates. The 4130 material supplied by Zenith is a good fit in the bearings. The bolts are torqued to the normal torque for AN3 bolts.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 6:34:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net writes:
Quote:
Hi John,

Thanks for the drawing and comments on the rudder bearings.

I'm not familiar with Oilite or sintered bronze. Can you give me any clues where to get that stuff and what form it takes?  Do I order bearings or just the material and machine it to my design?

Thanks,

Paul

On 10/16/2011 3:53 PM, JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com) wrote:
Quote:
I made a design for an Oilite bearing in the Rudder of my CH701. The 4130 steel tube is clamped by the through bolt and rotates in the bearing which can be replaced if it should wear. I do not like steel in aluminum as a bearing pair. Picture attached. I did a similar design for all of the rotating bearings on the wings and stab of the 701. Lubricate at assembly with MoS2 grease. Remember our airplanes are Experimental so use the design at your own risk.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 12:25:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> (psm(at)att.net)

Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.

After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the portion
of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the hole. I
think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is rotating
against the aluminum bracket.

I don't know what I will do about this.  Perhaps a slightly larger steel
tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner tube to
move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction on this
approach, but some axle grease might help.

Paul
Camas, WA
XL through 20 hours of phase I testing
On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel(at)nemon.com> (mhubel(at)nemon.com)

I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.

I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.

--------
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
70 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
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p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

There is plenty of metal for the edge distance at least on the 701 plates. I do not know about 601s I'll check them on my hangar buddies plane to verify.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 8:01:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, mtherr(at)yahoo.com writes:
Quote:

This is what I was thinking... What is the edge distance on the bearing part that the bushing is installed? Is there enough aluminum left?

----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby


From: "JohnDRead(at)aol.com" <JohnDRead(at)aol.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:53:07 PM
Subject: Re: rudder bearing play

I made a design for an Oilite bearing in the Rudder of my CH701. The 4130 steel tube is clamped by the through bolt and rotates in the bearing which can be replaced if it should wear. I do not like steel in aluminum as a bearing pair. Picture attached. I did a similar design for all of the rotating bearings on the wings and stab of the 701. Lubricate at assembly with MoS2 grease. Remember our airplanes are Experimental so use the design at your own risk.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
Quote:


href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:57 am    Post subject: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

Hi John,

Thanks for the info. I looked at McMaster and found gobs of choices for Oilite bearings. The were so inexpensive (most under $1) I thought it might be possible to find them at a local hardware store.

Thanks again,

Paul

On 10/16/2011 10:16 PM, JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote] Hi Paul,
The manufacturer of the bearings I used for the rudder mod is Symmco Inc. www.symmco.com in Sykesville PA. The Upper Rudder bearing is p/n SF-812-5 the Lower Rudder bearing is p/n SF-812-4. You can download their catalog from their web site. I reamed the holes in the plates to 0.0375, the bearings are 0.377 OD which gives a light press fit into the plates. The 4130 material supplied by Zenith is a good fit in the bearings. The bolts are torqued to the normal torque for AN3 bolts.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 6:34:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:
Quote:
Hi John,

Thanks for the drawing and comments on the rudder bearings.

I'm not familiar with Oilite or sintered bronze. Can you give me any clues where to get that stuff and what form it takes? Do I order bearings or just the material and machine it to my design?

Thanks,

Paul

On 10/16/2011 3:53 PM, JohnDRead(at)aol.com (JohnDRead(at)aol.com) wrote:
Quote:
I made a design for an Oilite bearing in the Rudder of my CH701. The 4130 steel tube is clamped by the through bolt and rotates in the bearing which can be replaced if it should wear. I do not like steel in aluminum as a bearing pair. Picture attached. I did a similar design for all of the rotating bearings on the wings and stab of the 701. Lubricate at assembly with MoS2 grease. Remember our airplanes are Experimental so use the design at your own risk.

Regards, John

CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300

Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 10/16/2011 12:25:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> (psm(at)att.net)

Your comments on this issue got me to look at my rudder mounting.

After only 20 hours of flight I can see measurable wear on the portion
of the top bracket hole at the front (toward the nose) of the hole. I
think the way this "Hinge" is designed the steel tube is rotating
against the aluminum bracket.

I don't know what I will do about this. Perhaps a slightly larger steel
tube pressed into the aluminum will provide a way for the inner tube to
move without removing aluminum. I'm concerned about friction on this
approach, but some axle grease might help.

Paul
Camas, WA
XL through 20 hours of phase I testing


On 10/15/2011 5:54 PM, mhubel wrote:
> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "mhubel"<mhubel(at)nemon.com> (mhubel(at)nemon.com)
>
> I just noted what I consider excess play in the top rudder bearing in my CH601XL. It seems the design assumes the metal bushing on the AN3 bolt will not move against the mounting plates on the rudder.
>
> I plan to fix it with a slightly over sized bushing and hole but I wonder if many others have noted this.
>
> --------
> Mark Hubelbank
> N708HU
> CH601XL
> Jabiru 3300
> Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
> Sensenich ground adj prop.
> 70 hr TAF
> Pictures at photo.hubbles.com
>
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>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355163#355163
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mhubel



Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: rudder bearing play Reply with quote

I am now part way through a repair. I am replacing the original bearings with precision ball bearings. These are McMaster Carr number 57155K16 and are 3/16 ID, 5/16 OD with an extended center shaft.

The biggest part of this is to open the 1/4 inch holes to 5/16. There appears to be enough metal to do this. The hole is first enlarged to 19/64 then reamed out to 0.3115 to make it a tight fit.

The bolts may need to be sanded a bit with 400 paper to fit the bearing. If the holes the bolts seat in have been enlarged, (as mine were). they can be opened up to 1/4 inch and a spacer can be made out of bearing material (6391K124). Also a spacer will need to be made to take up the about 0.2 inch space between the top beating and the bracket.

There will be more and pictures when all this is finished.


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