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doug.ilg(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:39 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Dan,

That is, indeed, a simple system and most of it looks good to this novice.  I only see two issues, both in the starting/ignition circuit.

First, it appears that your starter contactor is energized whenever both mags are hot.  That means your starter will always be engaged in flight.  Adding a simple momentary-on start switch would be one way to fix that.

The second thing is that both mags are required to be hot, in order to start.  That would be sort of okay if you had 2 impulse coupled mags.  Since you only show the left mag as having an impulse coupling, you really want to start with only the left mag hot.   



If I recall, at least one of Bob's diagrams uses 2-10 switches (in place of the 2-5's you show).  They are on-on-(on) with some fancy wiring that will fix both of these problems.  Switch down = mag grounded, switch in the middle = mag hot, both switches momentarily up = energize starter contactor.  I believe there's a way to have the up position ground out the unwanted mag, too.

Personally, I prefer the simplicity and flexibility of independently switched mags and an independent starter switch.

 

Doug Ilg

Grumman Tiger N74818, College Park Airport (KCGS), Maryland

Challenger II LSS LW (N641LG reserved) - kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)



 



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dan Sherburn <dsherburn(at)att.net>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:03 PM

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design



          I'm building a Zenith CH750 (just started). The Zenith Builders group  directed me to the AeroElectric Connection. I've ordered Bob's books and CD.  I've utilized one of the sample drawings I'd like to use as the basis for an  electrical design for my Zenith. To date, I'm planning on a very simple, day,  VFR airplane. Continental 0200, no vacuum. As such, I'm looking for a very  simple, proper electrical design for the plane. Attached is a straight  forward electrical design taken from the AeroElectric Connection samples.  Please review and comment. I've yet to detail avionics, but at a minimum I'll  have a simple GPS and Comm (no Nav), but a transponder is a "maybe".

  

 I'm an Electrical Engineer, which doesn't mean alot in terms of Aircraft  electrical systems; just that I'm comfortable with electrical control  systems

  

 Thanks in advance!

 Dan Sherburn

 Michigan

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

10/12/2011



Hello Dan, You wrote: "....but a transponder is a "maybe"."



Please change that "maybe" to a "yes".



Having a transponder in an aircraft in this day and age is sort of like 

having turn signals in an automobile. You may get by OK for a time with arm 

signals in your automobile, but you will soon regret not having turn signals 

installed.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."



PS: Someday you, your widow, or your children will be selling that airplane. 

A prospective buyer will be discouraged by the lack of a transponder.



=================================================================



Time: 06:07:18 PM PST US

From: "Dan Sherburn" <dsherburn(at)att.net>

Subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design



I'm building a Zenith CH750 (just started). The Zenith Builders group

directed me to the AeroElectric Connection. I've ordered Bob's books and

CD. I've utilized one of the sample drawings I'd like to use as the

basis for an electrical design for my Zenith. To date, I'm planning on a

very simple, day, VFR airplane. Continental 0200, no vacuum. As such,

I'm looking for a very simple, proper electrical design for the plane.

Attached is a straight forward electrical design taken from the

AeroElectric Connection samples. Please review and comment. I've yet to

detail avionics, but at a minimum I'll have a simple GPS and Comm (no

Nav), but a transponder is a "maybe".



I'm an Electrical Engineer, which doesn't mean alot in terms of Aircraft

electrical systems; just that I'm comfortable with electrical control

systems



Thanks in advance!

Dan Sherburn

Michigan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

At 07:35 AM 10/12/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dan,



That is, indeed, a simple system and most of it looks good to this 

novice.  I only see two issues, both in the starting/ignition circuit.



First, it appears that your starter contactor is energized whenever 

both mags are hot.  That means your starter will always be engaged 

in flight.  Adding a simple momentary-on start switch would be one 

way to fix that.



The second thing is that both mags are required to be hot, in order 

to start.  That would be sort of okay if you had 2 impulse coupled 

mags.  Since you only show the left mag as having an impulse 

coupling, you really want to start with only the left mag hot.



If I recall, at least one of Bob's diagrams uses 2-10 switches (in 

place of the 2-5's you show).  They are on-on-(on) with some fancy 

wiring that will fix both of these problems.  Switch down = mag 

grounded, switch in the middle = mag hot, both switches momentarily 

up = energize starter contactor.  I believe there's a way to have 

the up position ground out the unwanted mag, too.


	


     This mag/starter switch configuration is based on two,

     2-5 on-off-(on) three position toggle switches. This

     wiring is depicted in Figure Z-11.



     If you study the wiring in Z-11, you'll see that the

     starter cannot be cranked unless the right mag switch

     is OFF. Then, raising the left mag switch from the stable,

     mid position (mag hot) to full up, the starter contactor

     is energized. The spring-loaded, full-up position of the

     right mag siwtch is not used.



     I used two identical switches so that the magneto

     switches for normal flight ops are BOTH in the mid

     position.

   Bob . . .

doug.ilg(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

And now you have the real story.  Forget most of what I said.  (I still prefer independent switches/circuits, though.)

Thanks for the correction, Bob.



 

Doug Ilg

Grumman Tiger N74818, College Park Airport (KCGS), Maryland

Challenger II LSS LW (N641LG reserved) - kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)



 



[quote]    This mag/starter switch configuration is based on two,

    2-5 on-off-(on) three position toggle switches. This

    wiring is depicted in Figure Z-11.



    If you study the wiring in Z-11, you'll see that the

    starter cannot be cranked unless the right mag switch

    is OFF. Then, raising the left mag switch from the stable,

    mid position (mag hot) to full up, the starter contactor

    is energized. The spring-loaded, full-up position of the

    right mag siwtch is not used.



    I used two identical switches so that the magneto

    switches for normal flight ops are BOTH in the mid

    position.

  Bob . . . 



[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:38 pm Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

At 11:44 AM 10/12/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  And now you have the real story.  Forget most of what I said.  (I 

still prefer independent switches/circuits, though.)



Thanks for the correction, Bob.


	


   Not necessarily a correction of your analysis . . . the

   diagram you were evaluating was not accurately quoted

   from Z-11. I'm glad you caught this . . . I sure didn't

   the first time I looked at it.



   Readers should keep in mind too that many FEATURES

   of the various Z-figures can be interchanged. There's

   perhaps a half dozen examples of practical magneto/starter

   management spread across the various drawings.



   The purpose of so many different z-figures is to

   speak to ARCHITECTURES . . . not detailed features.

   Bob . . .

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good Morning OC,

  

 I think we may have had this discussion before, but I do not feel a  transponder is needed by everyone. 

  

 Never actually measured the amount of airspace where a transponder is  required, but I will bet a milk shake that the airspace where one is required  makes up way less the ten percent of the air space in the USA.  Sure, for  those of us who live and fly in the shadow of places like O'Hare International  Airport, it is required equipment, but out in the boonies, it is just another  toy for most.

  

 As Always, It All Depends!

  

 For just piddling around in the hinterlands it is cost and weight that can  be done without.

  

 As for resale value, ANY electronics you install will be the fastest  depreciating component in the airplane!

  

 Keep it simple and install nothing you do not need.

  

 The Street Price for a good working Garmin 496 is now about 800 bucks. Two  years ago it would bring 2400.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Stearman N3977A

 Downers Grove, Illinois

  

  In a message dated 10/12/2011 7:55:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  bakerocb(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by:    <bakerocb(at)cox.net>



10/12/2011



Hello Dan, You wrote:    "....but a transponder is a "maybe"."



Please change that "maybe" to a    "yes".



Having a transponder in an aircraft in this day and age is sort    of like 

having turn signals in an automobile. You may get by OK for a time    with arm 

signals in your automobile, but you will soon regret not having    turn signals 

installed.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we    can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand    knowledge."



PS: Someday you, your widow, or your children will be    selling that airplane. 

A prospective buyer will be discouraged by the lack    of a    transponder.



========================================



Time:    06:07:18 PM PST US

From: "Dan Sherburn"    <dsherburn(at)att.net>

Subject: Tentative Zenith    Electrical Design



I'm building a Zenith CH750 (just started). The    Zenith Builders group

directed me to the AeroElectric Connection. I've    ordered Bob's books and

CD. I've utilized one of the sample drawings I'd    like to use as the

basis for an electrical design for my Zenith. To date,    I'm planning on a

very simple, day, VFR airplane. Continental 0200, no    vacuum. As such,

I'm looking for a very simple, proper electrical design    for the plane.

Attached is a straight forward electrical design taken from    the

AeroElectric Connection samples. Please review and comment. I've yet    to

detail avionics, but at a minimum I'll have a simple GPS and Comm    (no

Nav), but a transponder is a "maybe".



I'm an Electrical    Engineer, which doesn't mean alot in terms of Aircraft

electrical systems;    just that I'm comfortable with electrical control

systems



Thanks in    advance!

Dan  Sherburn

Michigan

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Bob,



  Regarding "required" airspace for a transponder, you are correct.  

  However, another VERY valuable attribute of the transponder is having the

various airspace monitors (ATC guys) keep an eye on you with "Flight Following".

  For the few 'several hundred mile 'cross-countrys'  I've been on, plus a few shorter ones,

I've enjoyed the security of knowing the ATC guys were watching out for me.  The 5-6

x-country journeys I can think of were over mountains, or remote deserts.

  Absolutely necessary?  No.  A little comforting?  Very much so!

Mike Welch





On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:46 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]     Good Morning OC,

  

 I think we may have had this discussion before, but I do not feel a  transponder is needed by everyone. 

  

 Never actually measured the amount of airspace where a transponder is  required, but I will bet a milk shake that the airspace where one is required  makes up way less the ten percent of the air space in the USA.  Sure, for  those of us who live and fly in the shadow of places like O'Hare International  Airport, it is required equipment, but out in the boonies, it is just another  toy for most.

  

 As Always, It All Depends!

  

 For just piddling around in the hinterlands it is cost and weight that can  be done without.

  

 As for resale value, ANY electronics you install will be the fastest  depreciating component in the airplane!

  

 Keep it simple and install nothing you do not need.

  

 The Street Price for a good working Garmin 496 is now about 800 bucks. Two  years ago it would bring 2400.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Stearman N3977A

 Downers Grove, Illinois

  

  In a message dated 10/12/2011 7:55:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by:    <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



10/12/2011



Hello Dan, You wrote:    "....but a transponder is a "maybe"."



Please change that "maybe" to a    "yes".



Having a transponder in an aircraft in this day and age is sort    of like 

having turn signals in an automobile. You may get by OK for a time    with arm 

signals in your automobile, but you will soon regret not having    turn signals 

installed.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we    can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand    knowledge."



PS: Someday you, your widow, or your children will be    selling that airplane. 

A prospective buyer will be discouraged by the lack    of a    transponder.



========================================



Time:    06:07:18 PM PST US

From: "Dan Sherburn"    <dsherburn(at)att.net (dsherburn(at)att.net)>

Subject: Tentative Zenith    Electrical Design



I'm building a Zenith CH750 (just started). The    Zenith Builders group

directed me to the AeroElectric Connection. I've    ordered Bob's books and

CD. I've utilized one of the sample drawings I'd    like to use as the

basis for an electrical design for my Zenith. To date,    I'm planning on a

very simple, day, VFR airplane. Continental 0200, no    vacuum. As such,

I'm looking for a very simple, proper electrical design    for the plane.

Attached is a straight forward electrical design taken from    the

AeroElectric Connection samples. Please review and comment. I've yet    to

detail avionics, but at a minimum I'll have a simple GPS and Comm    (no

Nav), but a transponder is a "maybe".



I'm an Electrical    Engineer, which doesn't mean alot in terms of Aircraft

electrical systems;    just that I'm comfortable with electrical control

systems



Thanks in    advance!

Dan  Sherburn

Michigan



	




  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

I believe a functioning transponder with an altitude encoder is priceless for enhancing safety.  Modern collision avoidance systems use the transponder and mode C read outs to make your presence known to fast movers and allow the TCAS to calculate evasive maneuvers if needed.  My aircraft will definitely be equipped with a transponder with Mode C.

Bob S.



On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:46, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:



[quote]  Good Morning OC,

  

 I think we may have had this discussion before, but I do not feel a  transponder is needed by everyone. 

  

 Never actually measured the amount of airspace where a transponder is  required, but I will bet a milk shake that the airspace where one is required  makes up way less the ten percent of the air space in the USA.  Sure, for  those of us who live and fly in the shadow of places like O'Hare International  Airport, it is required equipment, but out in the boonies, it is just another  toy for most.

  

 As Always, It All Depends!

  

 For just piddling around in the hinterlands it is cost and weight that can  be done without.

  

 As for resale value, ANY electronics you install will be the fastest  depreciating component in the airplane!

  

 Keep it simple and install nothing you do not need.

  

 The Street Price for a good working Garmin 496 is now about 800 bucks. Two  years ago it would bring 2400.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Stearman N3977A

 Downers Grove, Illinois

  

  In a message dated 10/12/2011 7:55:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by:    <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



10/12/2011



Hello Dan, You wrote:    "....but a transponder is a "maybe"."



Please change that "maybe" to a    "yes".



Having a transponder in an aircraft in this day and age is sort    of like 

having turn signals in an automobile. You may get by OK for a time    with arm 

signals in your automobile, but you will soon regret not having    turn signals 

installed.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we    can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand    knowledge."



PS: Someday you, your widow, or your children will be    selling that airplane. 

A prospective buyer will be discouraged by the lack    of a    transponder.



========================================



Time:    06:07:18 PM PST US

From: "Dan Sherburn"    <dsherburn(at)att.net (dsherburn(at)att.net)>

Subject: Tentative Zenith    Electrical Design



I'm building a Zenith CH750 (just started). The    Zenith Builders group

directed me to the AeroElectric Connection. I've    ordered Bob's books and

CD. I've utilized one of the sample drawings I'd    like to use as the

basis for an electrical design for my Zenith. To date,    I'm planning on a

very simple, day, VFR airplane. Continental 0200, no    vacuum. As such,

I'm looking for a very simple, proper electrical design    for the plane.

Attached is a straight forward electrical design taken from    the

AeroElectric Connection samples. Please review and comment. I've yet    to

detail avionics, but at a minimum I'll have a simple GPS and Comm    (no

Nav), but a transponder is a "maybe".



I'm an Electrical    Engineer, which doesn't mean alot in terms of Aircraft

electrical systems;    just that I'm comfortable with electrical control

systems



Thanks in    advance!

Dan  Sherburn

Michigan



	


  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:10 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good Morning Mike,

  

 As I said before, It all depends.

  

 Personally, I enjoy flying without contacting Flight Following. If the  weather is such that I think I may need to fly in cloud or in reduced  visibilities, I will file IFR. Sometimes I file IFR if the terrain is very  intimidating.

  

 The vast majority of time I enjoy just getting by on my own. 

  

 Figure I am saving the taxpayers a little bit of money each time I avoid  taking Federal Aid. 

  

 However, I certainly encourage the use of flight following by anyone who  feels it adds to their comfort of flight. Just doesn't do anything for me.  Probably just part of my reactionary cantankerous nature I guess <G>

  

 Managed to make it through some sixty-five years of flying and thirty-eight  thousand hours doing it that way. 

  

 Seems to work for me.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 9:33:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,    



     Regarding "required" airspace for a transponder, you are correct.     

   



     However, another VERY valuable attribute of the transponder is    having the

   various airspace monitors (ATC guys) keep an eye on you with "Flight    Following".

   



     For the few 'several hundred mile 'cross-countrys'  I've been    on, plus a few shorter ones,

   I've enjoyed the security of knowing the ATC guys were watching out for    me.  The 5-6

   x-country journeys I can think of were over mountains, or remote    deserts.

   



     Absolutely necessary?  No.  A little comforting?     Very much so!

   



   Mike Welch

   



   



   



   



   



   



   



   



         On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:46 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		                 Good Morning OC,

      

     I think we may have had this discussion before, but I do not feel a      transponder is needed by everyone. 

      

     Never actually measured the amount of airspace where a transponder is      required, but I will bet a milk shake that the airspace where one is      required makes up way less the ten percent of the air space in the      USA.  Sure, for those of us who live and fly in the shadow of places      like O'Hare International Airport, it is required equipment, but out in the      boonies, it is just another toy for most.

      

     As Always, It All Depends!

      

     For just piddling around in the hinterlands it is cost and weight that      can be done without.

      

     As for resale value, ANY electronics you install will be the      fastest depreciating component in the airplane!

      

     Keep it simple and install nothing you do not need.

      

     The Street Price for a good working Garmin 496 is now about 800 bucks.      Two years ago it would bring 2400.

      

     Happy Skies,

      

     Old Bob

     AKA

     Bob Siegfried

     Stearman N3977A

     Downers Grove, Illinois

      

          In a message dated 10/12/2011 7:55:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net) writes:

      	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>



10/12/2011



Hello        Dan, You wrote: "....but a transponder is a "maybe"."



Please change        that "maybe" to a "yes".



Having a transponder in an aircraft in        this day and age is sort of like 

having turn signals in an automobile.        You may get by OK for a time with arm 

signals in your automobile, but        you will soon regret not having turn signals 

installed.



'OC'        Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to        

gather and understand knowledge."



PS: Someday you, your widow,        or your children will be selling that airplane. 

A prospective buyer        will be discouraged by the lack of a        transponder.



========================================



Time:        06:07:18 PM PST US

From: "Dan Sherburn" <dsherburn(at)att.net (dsherburn(at)att.net)>

Subject:        Tentative Zenith Electrical Design



I'm building        a Zenith CH750 (just started). The Zenith Builders group

directed me to        the AeroElectric Connection. I've ordered Bob's books and

CD. I've        utilized one of the sample drawings I'd like to use as the

basis for an        electrical design for my Zenith. To date, I'm planning on a

very        simple, day, VFR airplane. Continental 0200, no vacuum. As such,

I'm        looking for a very simple, proper electrical design for the        plane.

Attached is a straight forward electrical design taken from        the

AeroElectric Connection samples. Please review and comment. I've        yet to

detail avionics, but at a minimum I'll have a simple GPS and        Comm (no

Nav), but a transponder is a "maybe".



I'm an Electrical        Engineer, which doesn't mean alot in terms of Aircraft

electrical        systems; just that I'm comfortable with electrical        control

systems



Thanks in advance!

Dan        Sherburn

Michigan



	




 	  Quote: 	
		  



	
	




	


 [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good Morning Bob S.

  

 And in what percentage of the US airspace will your Mode C transponder  supply traffic information and collision avoidance guidance to those fast  movers?

  

 Some day, that system will work. Right now it is often  just a  provider of false security. The best way to avoid a collision is to look out the  window and avoid flying where the fast movers who never look out the window are  prevalent.

  

 As I have said so often. It All Depends!

  

 I prefer to save my money until the product is ready for prime time.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Bob S.

  

 Rarely abbreviated from Bob Siegfried.

 Downers Grove, Illinois

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 9:56:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  endspeed(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I believe a functioning transponder with an altitude encoder is priceless    for enhancing safety.  Modern collision avoidance systems use the    transponder and mode C read outs to make your presence known to fast movers    and allow the TCAS to calculate evasive maneuvers if needed.  My aircraft    will definitely be equipped with a transponder with Mode C.

   



   Bob S.

   



   

On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:46, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:

   

    	  Quote: 	
		            Good Morning OC,

      

     I think we may have had this discussion before, but I do not feel a      transponder is needed by everyone. 

      

     Never actually measured the amount of airspace where a transponder is      required, but I will bet a milk shake that the airspace where one is      required makes up way less the ten percent of the air space in the      USA.  Sure, for those of us who live and fly in the shadow of places      like O'Hare International Airport, it is required equipment, but out in the      boonies, it is just another toy for most.

      

     As Always, It All Depends!

      

     For just piddling around in the hinterlands it is cost and weight that      can be done without.

      

     As for resale value, ANY electronics you install will be the      fastest depreciating component in the airplane!

      

     Keep it simple and install nothing you do not need.

      

     The Street Price for a good working Garmin 496 is now about 800 bucks.      Two years ago it would bring 2400.

      

     Happy Skies,

      

     Old Bob

     AKA

     Bob Siegfried

     Stearman N3977A

     Downers Grove,  Illinois

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:57 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:26 AM,  <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        Good Morning Bob S.

  

 And in what percentage of the US airspace will your Mode C transponder  supply traffic information and collision avoidance guidance to those fast  movers?

  

 

	




Right now, all of it.

TCAS provides interrogation from the aircraft in which it is installed. You can be in a mountain valley, and that fast moving airplane will see you, present your information to him, and provide him a traffic advisory or resolution advisory. You won't know about him, but he'll know about you.

 



More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

 



-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)

   [quote][b]

endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good morning, Bob S.'

  

   TCAS works great right now. And it works everywhere as in 100% of U.S. airspace as well as over some God forsaken pieces of real estate worldwide.  It is strictly between your transponder/mode C and the TCAS system of the fast mover.  Many, many times professional flight crews search for ATC called traffic and cannot find it!  Vigilance is a nice thing but it definitely doesn't solve the problem of avoiding traffic you cannot find despite your best efforts.  See and avoid obviously has its limitations.  But see and avoid aided by TCAS is much more effective.  Many times crews using TCAS can find traffic and if they can't, the TCAS can give evasive maneuver guidance.  So, if you want to show up on the big jets TCAS display, install a transponder with Mode C.  Good day to you.

  

 Bob  S.



--- On Tue, 10/18/11, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>

Subject: Re: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 11:26 AM



   Good Morning Bob S.

  

 And in what percentage of the US airspace will your Mode C transponder supply traffic information and collision avoidance guidance to those fast movers?

  

 Some day, that system will work. Right now it is often  just a provider of false security. The best way to avoid a collision is to look out the window and avoid flying where the fast movers who never look out the window are prevalent.

  

 As I have said so often. It All Depends!

  

 I prefer to save my money until the product is ready for prime time.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Bob S.

  

 Rarely abbreviated from Bob Siegfried.

 Downers Grove, Illinois

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 9:56:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, endspeed(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I believe a functioning transponder with an altitude encoder is priceless for enhancing safety.  Modern collision avoidance systems use the transponder and mode C read outs to make your presence known to fast movers and allow the TCAS to calculate evasive maneuvers if needed.  My aircraft will definitely be equipped with a transponder with Mode C.

 



 Bob S.

 



 

On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:46, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		    Good Morning OC,

  

 I think we may have had this discussion before, but I do not feel a transponder is needed by everyone. 

  

 Never actually measured the amount of airspace where a transponder is required, but I will bet a milk shake that the airspace where one is required makes up way less the ten percent of the air space in the USA.  Sure, for those of us who live and fly in the shadow of places like O'Hare International Airport, it is required equipment, but out in the boonies, it is just another toy for most.

  

 As Always, It All Depends!

  

 For just piddling around in the hinterlands it is cost and weight that can be done without.

  

 As for resale value, ANY electronics you install will be the fastest depreciating component in the airplane!

  

 Keep it simple and install nothing you do not need.

  

 The Street Price for a good working Garmin 496 is now about 800 bucks. Two years ago it would bring 2400.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Stearman N3977A

 Downers Grove, Illinois



	
	




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ist" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

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 [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good Afternoon Andrew,

  

 That would be true if the fast mover happens to be an airliner or other  large aircraft that is properly equipped to do so, but very few GA airplanes  have that capability. 

  

 It is coming, but I feel that most Zenith 610 builders who intend to piddle  around VFR will not get substantial benefit from a transponder. If the builder  wishes to install one, more power to him, but I do not think the degree of  additional safety will be worth the trouble. Not sure how most Light Sport  Aircraft are flown, but low and slow and away from the major airways are where I  would be flying such an aircraft.  I have quite a bit of experience in a  Legend Cub. It is equipped for IFR flight, though I have not yet had occasion to  file for such service, Since it is flown primarily in a high density flight  area, I encouraged the builder to install a transponder as well as an IFR  approvable GPS unit.

  

 My Stearman has a transponder because it flies in an area where I think  having one is prudent. If I were piddling around out in the boonies, I would  have no radios at all. Who knows, I may even equip the Stearman for IFR flight  one of these days. Depends on how and where it is to be used

  

 As I said in the message that started this string. It All Depends!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 11:58:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  



   On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:26 AM, <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		            Good Morning Bob S.

      

     And in what percentage of the US airspace will your Mode C transponder      supply traffic information and collision avoidance guidance to those fast      movers?

      

     

	
   



   Right now, all of it.

   



   TCAS provides interrogation from the aircraft in which it is installed.    You can be in a mountain valley, and that fast moving airplane will see you,    present your information to him, and provide him a traffic advisory or    resolution advisory. You won't know about him, but he'll know about you.

   



   More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

    



-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)

 	  Quote: 	
		  



ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

That's fair, but on a regular basis, whether IFR or VFR, we see someone on the TCAS box before ATC alerts us. Sometimes, they're too busy to give us the advisory.



Having a transponder does not always just provide me access to airspace that requires it. It also allows people to see and avoid me with something other than their eyes.

 



Also, keep in mind that the majority of mid-air collisions don't happen along "major airways," but rather in the vicinity of an airport, where many types of aircraft convene.



 

It's a tool, sometimes operationally required. I'm just pointing out that like landing/taxi/strobe lights, it is sometimes about helping other people see YOU, even though they aren't required.

 



I'll be putting a mode C transponder in my RV-7, but I fully respect your decision not to. Just making sure people think of the other side of the transmit/recieve transaction.

 -az



On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 1:50 PM,  <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        Good Afternoon Andrew,

  

 That would be true if the fast mover happens to be an airliner or other  large aircraft that is properly equipped to do so, but very few GA airplanes  have that capability. 

  

 It is coming, but I feel that most Zenith 610 builders who intend to piddle  around VFR will not get substantial benefit from a transponder. If the builder  wishes to install one, more power to him, but I do not think the degree of  additional safety will be worth the trouble. Not sure how most Light Sport  Aircraft are flown, but low and slow and away from the major airways are where I  would be flying such an aircraft.  I have quite a bit of experience in a  Legend Cub. It is equipped for IFR flight, though I have not yet had occasion to  file for such service, Since it is flown primarily in a high density flight  area, I encouraged the builder to install a transponder as well as an IFR  approvable GPS unit.

  

 My Stearman has a transponder because it flies in an area where I think  having one is prudent. If I were piddling around out in the boonies, I would  have no radios at all. Who knows, I may even equip the Stearman for IFR flight  one of these days. Depends on how and where it is to be used

  

 As I said in the message that started this string. It All Depends!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 11:58:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  



   On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:26 AM, <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		            Good Morning Bob S.

      

     And in what percentage of the US airspace will your Mode C transponder      supply traffic information and collision avoidance guidance to those fast      movers?

      

     

	
   



   Right now, all of it.

   



   TCAS provides interrogation from the aircraft in which it is installed.    You can be in a mountain valley, and that fast moving airplane will see you,    present your information to him, and provide him a traffic advisory or    resolution advisory. You won't know about him, but he'll know about you.

   



   More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

     



-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)

 	  Quote: 	
		  



ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


  	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	




-- 

Andrew Zachar

andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)

 



  [quote][b]

endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good afternoon Bob S.,

  Not to belabor a point but your concept of major airports and traffic is not necessarily 100% correct these days.  I retired from a major airline and we flew into uncontrolled airports!  VFR or IFR, it did not matter.  So if you fly your Cub into uncontrolled fields, you could find yourself eyeball to eyeball with a rather large, fast object.  No doubt, if you stay well off the beaten path of most traffic, you will have less chance of colliding.  But I flew into uncontrolled mountain airports and smaller uncontrolled southeastern airports for a major.  How much farther off the beaten track could one get?  And often our approaches brought us quite low over bugsmasher airports nearby.  Many times, I wished TCAS traffic had an altitude readout but the traffic had no mode C.  And the non transponder equipped aircraft never even showed up at all.  As I said, my aircraft will have a transponder with mode C.  

Best regards,

Another Bob S.

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 18, 2011, at 12:50, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:



[quote]  Good Afternoon Andrew,

  

 That would be true if the fast mover happens to be an airliner or other  large aircraft that is properly equipped to do so, but very few GA airplanes  have that capability. 

  

 It is coming, but I feel that most Zenith 610 builders who intend to piddle  around VFR will not get substantial benefit from a transponder. If the builder  wishes to install one, more power to him, but I do not think the degree of  additional safety will be worth the trouble. Not sure how most Light Sport  Aircraft are flown, but low and slow and away from the major airways are where I  would be flying such an aircraft.  I have quite a bit of experience in a  Legend Cub. It is equipped for IFR flight, though I have not yet had occasion to  file for such service, Since it is flown primarily in a high density flight  area, I encouraged the builder to install a transponder as well as an IFR  approvable GPS unit.

  

 My Stearman has a transponder because it flies in an area where I think  having one is prudent. If I were piddling around out in the boonies, I would  have no radios at all. Who knows, I may even equip the Stearman for IFR flight  one of these days. Depends on how and where it is to be used

  

 As I said in the message that started this string. It All Depends!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 11:58:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  



   On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:26 AM, <[url=mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com]BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)[/url]> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		            Good Morning Bob S.

      

     And in what percentage of the US airspace will your Mode C transponder      supply traffic information and collision avoidance guidance to those fast      movers?

      

     

	
   



   Right now, all of it.

   



   TCAS provides interrogation from the aircraft in which it is installed.    You can be in a mountain valley, and that fast moving airplane will see you,    present your information to him, and provide him a traffic advisory or    resolution advisory. You won't know about him, but he'll know about you.

   



   More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

    



-- 

Andrew Zachar

[url=mailto:andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com]andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com (andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com)[/url]

 	  Quote: 	
		  



ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


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===================================

st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

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[b]

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Actually anyone with a $400. (and up) traffic device such as the little 

PCAS will be alerted to your presence if you have a transponder. A 

collision with another light aircraft tends to be just as fatal as with 

a big one. Many times I've avoided another light aircraft that obviously 

did not see me. And many times I would not have seen the other guy 

either if it wasn't for the PCAS insisting he was there. The PCAS is 

passive but there are almost always overflying big guys with TCAS 

triggering every other transponder within a couple of hundred miles. So 

these things work even down low in the boonies and provide significant 

safety improvement IMO. I rarely use my transponder for ATC purposes but 

it is always on.

Ken



On 18/10/2011 3:11 PM, Robert Sultzbach wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Good afternoon Bob S.,



 Not to belabor a point but your concept of major airports and traffic is

 not necessarily 100% correct these days. I retired from a major airline

 and we flew into uncontrolled airports! VFR or IFR, it did not matter.

 So if you fly your Cub into uncontrolled fields, you could find yourself

 eyeball to eyeball with a rather large, fast object. No doubt, if you

 stay well off the beaten path of most traffic, you will have less chance

 of colliding. But I flew into uncontrolled mountain airports and smaller

 uncontrolled southeastern airports for a major. How much farther off the

 beaten track could one get? And often our approaches brought us quite

 low over bugsmasher airports nearby. Many times, I wished TCAS traffic

 had an altitude readout but the traffic had no mode C. And the non

 transponder equipped aircraft never even showed up at all. As I said, my

 aircraft will have a transponder with mode C.



 Best regards,



 Another Bob S.

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good Evening Ken,

  

 Well, it is certain that my opinion IS in the minority.

  

 It so happens that I currently own and fly four airplanes and all of them  are equipped with Mode C transponders.

  

 I see that there was "Another Bob S." that commented.  I did not  receive his message though it is copied in your message. I also flew for a  "major" for 38 years. I think I am aware of where air carriers are likely to be  found. 

  

 The original comment was triggered by a pilot who is starting to build a  Zenith.  Some of you seem to feel that having a transponder installed is  almost mandatory. I am not of that opinion. 

  

 Does not make me right, but it IS my opinion and I just wanted to let the  Zenith builder know that if he is primarily interested in flying low and slow  way out in the boonies, the odds of his needing a transponder are still pretty  slim. We lose more airplanes due to pilot error than to any other cause.   Those errors are made by thirty year airline pilots just like they are made by  student pilots. We cannot buy safety just by buying toys. My contention is that  the decision to equip an airplane with every bell and whistle should be made  based on where and how that aircraft is going to be operated. Ya can't buy  safety, ya gotta learn how to stay within your personal and your  equipment's limitations.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, Illinois

 Stearman, Turbo Normalized Bonanza, Normally aspirated Bonanza, and a  Pacer  Couple more in the bowels of the hangar that may be rebuilt someday.  <G>

  

  In a message dated 10/18/2011 4:05:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  klehman(at)albedo.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken    <klehman(at)albedo.net>



Actually anyone with a $400. (and up)    traffic device such as the little 

PCAS will be alerted to your presence if    you have a transponder. A 

collision with another light aircraft tends to    be just as fatal as with 

a big one. Many times I've avoided another light    aircraft that obviously 

did not see me. And many times I would not have    seen the other guy 

either if it wasn't for the PCAS insisting he was    there. The PCAS is 

passive but there are almost always overflying big guys    with TCAS 

triggering every other transponder within a couple of hundred    miles. So 

these things work even down low in the boonies and provide    significant 

safety improvement IMO. I rarely use my transponder for ATC    purposes but 

it is always on.

Ken



On 18/10/2011 3:11 PM, Robert    Sultzbach wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Good afternoon Bob S.,



 Not to belabor    a point but your concept of major airports and traffic is

 not    necessarily 100% correct these days. I retired from a major airline

    and we flew into uncontrolled airports! VFR or IFR, it did not matter.

    So if you fly your Cub into uncontrolled fields, you could find    yourself

 eyeball to eyeball with a rather large, fast object. No    doubt, if you

 stay well off the beaten path of most traffic, you will    have less chance

 of colliding. But I flew into uncontrolled mountain    airports and smaller

 uncontrolled southeastern airports for a major.    How much farther off the

 beaten track could one get? And often our    approaches brought us quite

 low over bugsmasher airports nearby. Many    times, I wished TCAS traffic

 had an altitude readout but the traffic    had no mode C. And the non

 transponder equipped aircraft never even    showed up at all. As I said, my

 aircraft will have a transponder with    mode C.



 Best regards,



 Another Bob    S.


	


	


 [quote][b]

riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

You are right, a transponder is only required in class A, B, and C airspace.

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:51 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

Good Evening Ken,

Well, it is certain that my opinion IS in the minority.

It so happens that I currently own and fly four airplanes and all of them are equipped with Mode C transponders.

I see that there was "Another Bob S." that commented.  I did not receive his message though it is copied in your message. I also flew for a "major" for 38 years. I think I am aware of where air carriers are likely to be found. 

The original comment was triggered by a pilot who is starting to build a Zenith.  Some of you seem to feel that having a transponder installed is almost mandatory. I am not of that opinion. 

Does not make me right, but it IS my opinion and I just wanted to let the Zenith builder know that if he is primarily interested in flying low and slow way out in the boonies, the odds of his needing a transponder are still pretty slim. We lose more airplanes due to pilot error than to any other cause.  Those errors are made by thirty year airline pilots just like they are made by student pilots. We cannot buy safety just by buying toys. My contention is that the decision to equip an airplane with every bell and whistle should be made based on where and how that aircraft is going to be operated. Ya can't buy safety, ya gotta learn how to stay within your personal and your equipment's limitations.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Downers Grove, Illinois

Stearman, Turbo Normalized Bonanza, Normally aspirated Bonanza, and a Pacer  Couple more in the bowels of the hangar that may be rebuilt someday. <G>

In a message dated 10/18/2011 4:05:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, klehman(at)albedo.net writes:

[quote]

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>

Actually anyone with a $400. (and up) traffic device such as the little 

PCAS will be alerted to your presence if you have a transponder. A 

collision with another light aircraft tends to be just as fatal as with 

a big one. Many times I've avoided another light aircraft that obviously 

did not see me. And many times I would not have seen the other guy 

either if it wasn't for the PCAS insisting he was there. The PCAS is 

passive but there are almost always overflying big guys with TCAS 

triggering every other transponder within a couple of hundred miles. So 

these things work even down low in the boonies and provide significant 

safety improvement IMO. I rarely use my transponder for ATC purposes but 

it is always on.

Ken

On 18/10/2011 3:11 PM, Robert Sultzbach wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Good afternoon Bob S.,

 Not to belabor a point but your concept of major airports and traffic is

 not necessarily 100% correct these days. I retired from a major airline

 and we flew into uncontrolled airports! VFR or IFR, it did not matter.

 So if you fly your Cub into uncontrolled fields, you could find yourself

 eyeball to eyeball with a rather large, fast object. No doubt, if you

 stay well off the beaten path of most traffic, you will have less chance

 of colliding. But I flew into uncontrolled mountain airports and smaller

 uncontrolled southeastern airports for a major. How much farther off the

 beaten track could one get? And often our approaches brought us quite

 low over bugsmasher airports nearby. Many times, I wished TCAS traffic

 had an altitude readout but the traffic had no mode C. And the non

 transponder equipped aircraft never even showed up at all. As I said, my

 aircraft will have a transponder with mode C.

 Best regards,

 Another Bob S.

  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	

1 	  Quote: 	

2 	  Quote: 	

3 	  Quote: 	

4 	  Quote: 	

5 	  Quote: 	

6 	  Quote: 	

7

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

I'm sure you are aware, but that's not the only airspace where a 

transponder is required.



91.215 if interested in the details...



On 10/18/11 8:17 PM, Lynn A Riggs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 You are right, a transponder is only required in class A, B, and C 

 airspace.



 *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 

 *BobsV35B(at)aol.com

 *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:51 PM

 *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design



 Good Evening Ken,



 Well, it is certain that my opinion IS in the minority.



 It so happens that I currently own and fly four airplanes and all of 

 them are equipped with Mode C transponders.



 I see that there was "Another Bob S." that commented.  I did not 

 receive his message though it is copied in your message. I also flew 

 for a "major" for 38 years. I think I am aware of where air carriers 

 are likely to be found.



 The original comment was triggered by a pilot who is starting to build 

 a Zenith.  Some of you seem to feel that having a transponder 

 installed is almost mandatory. I am not of that opinion.



 Does not make me right, but it IS my opinion and I just wanted to let 

 the Zenith builder know that if he is primarily interested in flying 

 low and slow way out in the boonies, the odds of his needing a 

 transponder are still pretty slim. We lose more airplanes due to pilot 

 error than to any other cause.  Those errors are made by thirty year 

 airline pilots just like they are made by student pilots. We cannot 

 buy safety just by buying toys. My contention is that the decision to 

 equip an airplane with every bell and whistle should be made based on 

 where and how that aircraft is going to be operated. Ya can't buy 

 safety, ya gotta learn how to stay within your personal and your 

 equipment's limitations.



 Happy Skies,



 Old Bob



 AKA



 Bob Siegfried



 Downers Grove, Illinois



 Stearman, Turbo Normalized Bonanza, Normally aspirated Bonanza, and a 

 Pacer  Couple more in the bowels of the hangar that may be rebuilt 

 someday. <G>



 In a message dated 10/18/2011 4:05:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 

 klehman(at)albedo.net writes:



     



     Actually anyone with a $400. (and up) traffic device such as the

     little

     PCAS will be alerted to your presence if you have a transponder. A

     collision with another light aircraft tends to be just as fatal as

     with

     a big one. Many times I've avoided another light aircraft that

     obviously

     did not see me. And many times I would not have seen the other guy

     either if it wasn't for the PCAS insisting he was there. The PCAS is

     passive but there are almost always overflying big guys with TCAS

     triggering every other transponder within a couple of hundred

     miles. So

     these things work even down low in the boonies and provide

     significant

     safety improvement IMO. I rarely use my transponder for ATC

     purposes but

     it is always on.

     Ken



     On 18/10/2011 3:11 PM, Robert Sultzbach wrote:

     > Good afternoon Bob S.,

     >

     > Not to belabor a point but your concept of major airports and

     traffic is

     > not necessarily 100% correct these days. I retired from a major

     airline

     > and we flew into uncontrolled airports! VFR or IFR, it did not

     matter.

     > So if you fly your Cub into uncontrolled fields, you could find

     yourself

     > eyeball to eyeball with a rather large, fast object. No doubt, if you

     > stay well off the beaten path of most traffic, you will have less

     chance

     > of colliding. But I flew into uncontrolled mountain airports and

     smaller

     > uncontrolled southeastern airports for a major. How much farther

     off the

     > beaten track could one get? And often our approaches brought us quite

     > low over bugsmasher airports nearby. Many times, I wished TCAS

     traffic

     > had an altitude readout but the traffic had no mode C. And the non

     > transponder equipped aircraft never even showed up at all. As I

     said, my

     > aircraft will have a transponder with mode C.

     >

     > Best regards,

     >

     > Another Bob S.

     >

     >



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bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: Tentative Zenith Electrical Design

10/19/2011



Hello Fellow EAB (Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft) Builders and Pilots, 

Fair warning -- I have broken out my whip and am about to give a nearly dead 

horse another (final?) whack.



The subject of whether or not to install a transponder in the aircraft that 

you are currently building has been hashed over pretty thoroughly recently 

from many aspects except for this one:



1) Suppose that you are flying around in (relatively remote) airspace that 

does not require a transponder. Further suppose that you are a very safety 

conscious individual and that you have you and your aircraft equipped with:



a) A GPS capable 406 ELT (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/elt.html),



b) A hand held portable radio,



c) A cell phone (both with well charged batteries),



d) And maybe even a PLB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_radiobeacon).



2) You are flying several thousand feet above ground when your engine 

suffers an unrecoverable failure. As you glide down you take some comfort in 

having each of the tools listed in 1 above available, but each of those 

tools (and your ability to operate them) severally have failure modes during 

and after contact with the earth's surface.



3) But you have one other very powerful tool available to notify ATC (even 

if you are not in radio or ongoing flight following radar contact with them) 

that you have both an emergency and your present location IF you have an 

operable transponder on board and you squawk 7700.



4) Points have been raised about cost, weight, and obsolencence of avionics 

systems in general. Modern, lightweight, solid state transponders that will 

remain useable in the ATC system for the foreseeable future are available 

for less than $2,000. Is that a good investment for you and your aircraft?



5) Please keep 3 and 4 above in mind, as well as the many other points that 

have been made on this subject, as you consider whether or not to install a 

transponder when you build your aircraft.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."

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