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Z16 voltage concern

 
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lgold(at)quantum-associat
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Robert,
I used your Z16 drawing in my Rotax 912 powered Zenith aircraft when I built it three yours ago. It works great except for a low voltage problem from the get-go whenever the main power distribution bus is on without turning on the endurance bus.
With the main bus only, I get about 12.5 volts on instruments attached to the endurance bus. With both buses set to “on” I get about 13.5 volts coming to these instruments. Of course this varies somewhat depending on whether the motor is on, with RPM, and with the state of battery charge, but the difference remains depending upon whether the endurance bus is on or off. Some of my instruments are sensitive to voltage so I have to leave the endurance buss on at all times. I have changes batteries and the Rotax voltage regulator but this situation remains.
Is this normal or is there a problem that needs to be addressed? If there is a problem, can you suggest a fix?
Thank you for your help,
Les
[quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:26 pm    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
At 03:59 PM 10/26/2011, you wrote:
Robert,
I used your Z16 drawing in my Rotax 912 powered Zenith aircraft when I built it three yours ago. It works great except for a low voltage problem from the get-go whenever the main power distribution bus is on without turning on the endurance bus.
With the main bus only, I get about 12.5 volts on instruments attached to the endurance bus. With both buses set to “on” I get about 13.5 volts coming to these instruments. Of course this varies somewhat depending on whether the motor is on, with RPM, and with the state of battery charge, but the difference remains depending upon whether the endurance bus is on or off. Some of my instruments are sensitive to voltage so I have to leave the endurance buss on at all times. I have changes batteries and the Rotax voltage regulator but this situation remains.
Is this normal or is there a problem that needs to be addressed? If there is a problem, can you suggest a fix?
Thank you for your help,

Have you conducted a load analysis? What's the
expected load on the alternator with everything
turned on? Does your engine have the external
belt driven alternator . . . or just the built
in? Since you referenced Z16, I presume it's
the built in alternator.

The built-in alternator is good for about 18A total. If
the battery is not fully charged, it can soak up
a large proportion of that 18A.

You need to put a good charger/maintainer on the
battery and make sure it is topped off. Start
the engine and turn off every accessory with
a switch.

You can't get full output out of the alternator
except at cruise:

[img]cid:.0[/img]


This data plot is a real 'hedge' on reality. First
a 5% tolerance. Next good at 20C. Finally, output
at these loads may be as low as 13.5 volts. In other
words, high enough to keep you from discharging
the battery but not enough to charge it either.

Hence, that excursion above 20A is a bit
of whimsy seldom realized in real world utility.

In your case, we first need to see if the alternator
WILL charge a battery at 14.2 or a tad better if
all the system loads are minimized if not OFF>


Bob . . .

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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:45 pm    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Hello Les,

The problem comes from the diode between the Main Bus and the Endurance bus; the forward voltage drop across this diode leaves you with the lower voltage at the Endurance bus. When you put the alternate feed on to the Endurance bus you ‘boost’ boost the voltage because there is no diode in the alternate path. If you use a Schottkey diode instead of a normal diode between the Main and Endurance bus the Endurance bus voltage will be better as the forward voltage drop across a Schottkey is less than that of a normal diode, but you will always have a slightly lower voltage on the Endurance bus.
Jay

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner
Sent: 26 October 2011 10:59 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Z16 voltage concern

Robert,
I used your Z16 drawing in my Rotax 912 powered Zenith aircraft when I built it three yours ago. It works great except for a low voltage problem from the get-go whenever the main power distribution bus is on without turning on the endurance bus.
With the main bus only, I get about 12.5 volts on instruments attached to the endurance bus. With both buses set to “on” I get about 13.5 volts coming to these instruments. Of course this varies somewhat depending on whether the motor is on, with RPM, and with the state of battery charge, but the difference remains depending upon whether the endurance bus is on or off. Some of my instruments are sensitive to voltage so I have to leave the endurance buss on at all times. I have changes batteries and the Rotax voltage regulator but this situation remains.
Is this normal or is there a problem that needs to be addressed? If there is a problem, can you suggest a fix?
Thank you for your help,
Les
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:24 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
At 01:41 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:

Quote:
Hello Les,

The problem comes from the diode between the Main Bus and the
Endurance bus; the forward voltage drop across this diode leaves you
with the lower voltage at the Endurance bus. When you put the
alternate feed on to the Endurance bus you 'boost' boost the voltage
because there is no diode in the alternate path. If you use a
Schottkey diode instead of a normal diode between the Main and
Endurance bus the Endurance bus voltage will be better as the
forward voltage drop across a Schottkey is less than that of a
normal diode, but you will always have a slightly lower voltage on
the Endurance bus.

Jay

My face is red. I should also have asked where you
measured the system voltage. If measured on the e-bus
in normal ops mode, the voltage will be a bit lower than
the main bus . . . which doesn't matter.

Recall that when the alternator is running and carrying
all operating loads, the target voltage for the battery
and main bus is 14.2 to 14.6 volts. This is the nominal
supply necessary to top off your battery after an engine
start.

The e-bus, being fed through the diode WILL be down around
13.5 to 13.8 which is okay. Recall also that while a
battery CHARGES at 14.2 to 14.6, it DELIVERS energy
at 12.5 volts and BELOW . . . when it gets down to 10.5
volts, the battery is used up.

If your e-bus accessories are chosen for their usefulness
as aids to battery-only ops, then they're EXPECTED to
perform over the battery only voltage range of 10.5 to
12.5 volts. Hence a normal e-bus voltage of 13.5 presents no
issues of concern.

If your low voltage warning is built into an accessory
attached to the e-bus, then it needs to trigger at
some level which accommodates the diode drop. 12.8
volts is about right. If it is not user adjustable,
then perhaps it should be disabled and a separate,
standalone, LV warning set for 13.0 volts be driven
from the MAIN bus.

Finally, if push comes to shove, there's no sin in
leaving the e-bus alternate feed switch closed during
normal operations. The diode is there to prevent back-
feeding the main bus should you find it necessary to
revert to battery only operations.

Sorry for the fire-drill.

Bob . . .

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sam.marlow



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:56 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Just wondered where I could find a Schottkey bridge to bring my voltage
back up close to normal?
Thanks,
Sam

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

At 01:41 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:

> Hello Les,
>
> The problem comes from the diode between the Main Bus and the
> Endurance bus; the forward voltage drop across this diode leaves you
> with the lower voltage at the Endurance bus. When you put the
> alternate feed on to the Endurance bus you 'boost' boost the voltage
> because there is no diode in the alternate path. If you use a
> Schottkey diode instead of a normal diode between the Main and
> Endurance bus the Endurance bus voltage will be better as the forward
> voltage drop across a Schottkey is less than that of a normal diode,
> but you will always have a slightly lower voltage on the Endurance bus.
>
> Jay

My face is red. I should also have asked where you
measured the system voltage. If measured on the e-bus
in normal ops mode, the voltage will be a bit lower than
the main bus . . . which doesn't matter.

Recall that when the alternator is running and carrying
all operating loads, the target voltage for the battery
and main bus is 14.2 to 14.6 volts. This is the nominal
supply necessary to top off your battery after an engine
start.

The e-bus, being fed through the diode WILL be down around
13.5 to 13.8 which is okay. Recall also that while a
battery CHARGES at 14.2 to 14.6, it DELIVERS energy
at 12.5 volts and BELOW . . . when it gets down to 10.5
volts, the battery is used up.

If your e-bus accessories are chosen for their usefulness
as aids to battery-only ops, then they're EXPECTED to
perform over the battery only voltage range of 10.5 to
12.5 volts. Hence a normal e-bus voltage of 13.5 presents no
issues of concern.

If your low voltage warning is built into an accessory
attached to the e-bus, then it needs to trigger at
some level which accommodates the diode drop. 12.8
volts is about right. If it is not user adjustable,
then perhaps it should be disabled and a separate,
standalone, LV warning set for 13.0 volts be driven
from the MAIN bus.

Finally, if push comes to shove, there's no sin in
leaving the e-bus alternate feed switch closed during
normal operations. The diode is there to prevent back-
feeding the main bus should you find it necessary to
revert to battery only operations.

Sorry for the fire-drill.

Bob . . .



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email(at)jaredyates.com
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Bob sells a nice package on the aeroelectric connection website. I
installed his system and subsequently cooked the diode due to improper
insulation in my mounting, and I was able to find the diode itself
online separately for a few dollars. I would recommend Bob's package
since it has the circuit board and mounting hardware ready to go.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:
Quote:

<sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>

Just wondered where I could find a Schottkey bridge to bring my voltage back
up close to normal?
Thanks,
Sam

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 01:41 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:
>
>> Hello Les,
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem comes from the diode between the Main Bus and the Endurance
>> bus; the forward voltage drop across this diode leaves you with the lower
>> voltage at the Endurance bus.  When you put the alternate feed on to the
>> Endurance bus you 'boost' boost the voltage because there is no diode in the
>> alternate path.  If you use a Schottkey diode instead of a normal diode
>> between the Main and Endurance bus the Endurance bus voltage will be better
>> as the forward voltage drop across a Schottkey is less than that of a normal
>> diode, but you will always have a slightly lower voltage on the Endurance
>> bus.
>>
>> Jay
>
>   My face is red. I should also have asked where you
>   measured the system voltage. If measured on the e-bus
>   in normal ops mode, the voltage will be a bit lower than
>   the main bus . . . which doesn't matter.
>
>   Recall that when the alternator is running and carrying
>   all operating loads, the target voltage for the battery
>   and main bus is 14.2 to 14.6 volts. This is the nominal
>   supply necessary to top off your battery after an engine
>   start.
>
>   The e-bus, being fed through the diode WILL be down around
>   13.5 to 13.8 which is okay. Recall also that while a
>   battery CHARGES at 14.2 to 14.6, it DELIVERS energy
>   at 12.5 volts and BELOW . . . when it gets down to 10.5
>   volts, the battery is used up.
>
>   If your e-bus accessories are chosen for their usefulness
>   as aids to battery-only ops, then they're EXPECTED to
>   perform over the battery only voltage range of 10.5 to
>   12.5 volts. Hence a normal e-bus voltage of 13.5 presents no
>   issues of concern.
>
>   If your low voltage warning is built into an accessory
>   attached to the e-bus, then it needs to trigger at
>   some level which accommodates the diode drop. 12.8
>   volts is about right. If it is not user adjustable,
>   then perhaps it should be disabled and a separate,
>   standalone, LV warning set for 13.0 volts be driven
>   from the MAIN bus.
>
>   Finally, if push comes to shove, there's no sin in
>   leaving the e-bus alternate feed switch closed during
>   normal operations. The diode is there to prevent back-
>   feeding the main bus should you find it necessary to
>   revert to battery only operations.
>
>   Sorry for the fire-drill.
>
>  Bob . . .
>




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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
At 08:53 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:
Quote:

<sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>

Just wondered where I could find a Schottkey bridge to bring my
voltage back up close to normal?
Thanks,

Why are you worried about it? Given the physics of
how the system is designed, 13.5 IS normal.

The standard rectifier bridge will give you a drop
of about .7 volts for a 10A e-bus load. The Schottky
device will drop that to about .5 volts. Not a
great difference.

The acid test is to operate your airplane for a time
with the e-bus alt feed switch open, and then for
a time with it closed. Were it not for a reading on
a display, would you know the difference?

Know that bus isolation diodes are used on large
aircraft. While these are usually 28 volt systems
were the diode drop represents a smaller percentage
of loss . . . the drop is noted, evaluated and found
insignificant to normal operations of devices down-
stream of the diode.

I suggest that such is the case here as well.
Bob . . .

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sam.marlow



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:59 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
I'm aware of the Schottkey diode board but that's not a bridge. I need two sources in to feed my aux buss, so no switching is required. I have this setup now, but it drops the voltage to the 12v range, with the Radio Shack bridge setup.

---- Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> wrote:

=============


Bob sells a nice package on the aeroelectric connection website. I
installed his system and subsequently cooked the diode due to improper
insulation in my mounting, and I was able to find the diode itself
online separately for a few dollars. I would recommend Bob's package
since it has the circuit board and mounting hardware ready to go.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:
Quote:

<sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>

Just wondered where I could find a Schottkey bridge to bring my voltage back
up close to normal?
Thanks,
Sam

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 01:41 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:
>
>> Hello Les,
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem comes from the diode between the Main Bus and the Endurance
>> bus; the forward voltage drop across this diode leaves you with the lower
>> voltage at the Endurance bus.  When you put the alternate feed on to the
>> Endurance bus you 'boost' boost the voltage because there is no diode in the
>> alternate path.  If you use a Schottkey diode instead of a normal diode
>> between the Main and Endurance bus the Endurance bus voltage will be better
>> as the forward voltage drop across a Schottkey is less than that of a normal
>> diode, but you will always have a slightly lower voltage on the Endurance
>> bus.
>>
>> Jay
>
>   My face is red. I should also have asked where you
>   measured the system voltage. If measured on the e-bus
>   in normal ops mode, the voltage will be a bit lower than
>   the main bus . . . which doesn't matter.
>
>   Recall that when the alternator is running and carrying
>   all operating loads, the target voltage for the battery
>   and main bus is 14.2 to 14.6 volts. This is the nominal
>   supply necessary to top off your battery after an engine
>   start.
>
>   The e-bus, being fed through the diode WILL be down around
>   13.5 to 13.8 which is okay. Recall also that while a
>   battery CHARGES at 14.2 to 14.6, it DELIVERS energy
>   at 12.5 volts and BELOW . . . when it gets down to 10.5
>   volts, the battery is used up.
>
>   If your e-bus accessories are chosen for their usefulness
>   as aids to battery-only ops, then they're EXPECTED to
>   perform over the battery only voltage range of 10.5 to
>   12.5 volts. Hence a normal e-bus voltage of 13.5 presents no
>   issues of concern.
>
>   If your low voltage warning is built into an accessory
>   attached to the e-bus, then it needs to trigger at
>   some level which accommodates the diode drop. 12.8
>   volts is about right. If it is not user adjustable,
>   then perhaps it should be disabled and a separate,
>   standalone, LV warning set for 13.0 volts be driven
>   from the MAIN bus.
>
>   Finally, if push comes to shove, there's no sin in
>   leaving the e-bus alternate feed switch closed during
>   normal operations. The diode is there to prevent back-
>   feeding the main bus should you find it necessary to
>   revert to battery only operations.
>
>   Sorry for the fire-drill.
>
>  Bob . . .
>




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sam.marlow



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:03 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Your right Bob, I just wanted see normal, or as close to normal, as possible. It's a good dignastic tool. Is it possible to construct my own bridge using Schottkey diode's, or is that silly?
---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:

=============


At 08:53 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:
Quote:

<sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>

Just wondered where I could find a Schottkey bridge to bring my
voltage back up close to normal?
Thanks,

Why are you worried about it? Given the physics of
how the system is designed, 13.5 IS normal.

The standard rectifier bridge will give you a drop
of about .7 volts for a 10A e-bus load. The Schottky
device will drop that to about .5 volts. Not a
great difference.

The acid test is to operate your airplane for a time
with the e-bus alt feed switch open, and then for
a time with it closed. Were it not for a reading on
a display, would you know the difference?

Know that bus isolation diodes are used on large
aircraft. While these are usually 28 volt systems
were the diode drop represents a smaller percentage
of loss . . . the drop is noted, evaluated and found
insignificant to normal operations of devices down-
stream of the diode.

I suggest that such is the case here as well.
Bob . . .

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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
I could tell you where to find it in South Africa! Smile

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HH Enterprises
• Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics
• Flight instruction
• General and Electrical Engineering services
(NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng)
• Great dinner parties and conversation
• General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living

Blog: www.rawhyde.wordpress.com
Cel: 083 300 8675
Email: jay(at)horriblehyde.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--

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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Quote:
Is it possible to construct my own bridge using Schottkey diode's, or is that silly?

The advantage of using a diode bridge with mounting hole in the center is its mechanical robustness. Two discrete diodes will function electrically just as well, as long as they are mounted securely for mechanical strength and heat dissipation.
If it is desired to boost the voltage output from the Rotax regulator from 13.5 to 14, a Schottky diode could be put in series with the wire going to the regulator "C" terminal (arrow pointing towards the regulator). I have not actually done that but it should work.
My Rotax voltage regulator puts out 13.6 volts. That might not be enough to top off a discharged battery, but the engine starts so quickly that it does not get run down much. I connect a battery maintainer when not flying. Everything works fine so I have not tried to boost the regulator voltage.
Joe

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Joe Gores
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
At 11:00 AM 10/27/2011, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>

Your right Bob, I just wanted see normal, or as close to normal, as possible. It's a good dignastic tool. Is it possible to construct my own bridge using Schottkey diode's, or is that silly?

Not at all. I selected the single hole, potted 'brick'
of plastic with 4 diodes for it's simplicity of mounting,
no insulation needed, and fast-on tabs. In most applications
we used only one of the four diodes . . . the other three
were not 'in the way' of successful exploitation of other
features for the device.

If you only need one diode, then there's a host of
offerings from the electronics suppliers. There are
a number of dual Shottky devices that feature two
diodes in the single package. Here's one example:

http://tinyurl.com/4x87a6s

This particular device does need to be insulated
from its heat-sinking surface like so . . .

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9001



Bob . . . [quote][b]

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sam.marlow



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject: Z16 voltage concern Reply with quote
Thanks!
---- user9253 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com> wrote:

=============

Quote:
Is it possible to construct my own bridge using Schottkey diode's, or is that silly?

The advantage of using a diode bridge with mounting hole in the center is its mechanical robustness. Two discrete diodes will function electrically just as well, as long as they are mounted securely for mechanical strength and heat dissipation.
If it is desired to boost the voltage output from the Rotax regulator from 13.5 to 14, a Schottky diode could be put in series with the wire going to the regulator "C" terminal (arrow pointing towards the regulator). I have not actually done that but it should work.
My Rotax voltage regulator puts out 13.6 volts. That might not be enough to top off a discharged battery, but the engine starts so quickly that it does not get run down much. I connect a battery maintainer when not flying. Everything works fine so I have not tried to boost the regulator voltage.
Joe

--------
Joe Gores


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356109#356109

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