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Oil and the M-14P

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k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:30 am Post subject: Oil and the M-14P

Hello Carl,

Thanks for your help on the phone this last Thursday.

I was a little confused with the fact that the FBO guys appeared to be ordering me a 55 gallon drum of AeroShell 120 straight weight mineral oil. It was my understanding that straight weight mineral oils were to be used mostly for engine break-in. I have been using the AeroShell 100 during the break-in period. I think you may have mentioned on the phone that straight weight mineral oils have also been used with the M-14P for regular operation, beyond the break-in period, but I was not sure. 

Should they instead be ordering me the AeroShell W120, which is an ashless dispersant oil?

Just looking to get it right. Whatever I get, will combine it with CamGurad. 

All the best,

Warren

Warren E. Hill, MD, FACS

5620 E. Broadway Road

Mesa, AZ  85206

Tel: +1-480-981-6111

FAX: +1-480-985-2426

hill(at)doctor-hill.com

www.doctor-hill.com

On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:27 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Warren, 

 CamGuard exceptional performance, beats the pants off any premium oils for corrosion protection and anti-wear properties... 

 Lots of owners are complaining about corrosion problems in engines. Part of this is because of reduced flight activity due to higher fuel prices and economic uncertainties.  CamGuard isn’t a slam dunk solution to corrosion problems, but it’s the best solution out there because it provides "marginally and measurably" better corrosion and anti-wear resistance than any oil out there.

 Multi-weight versus mono-grades with CamGuard... in desert climates like AZ as well as temperate areas like California, the airplane won't see wide swings in temperature. Although corrosion is less of a problem in these areas and you could go with a multi-grade per se, I would stick with the Aeroshell W100 + the CamGuard. At lower temperatures, multi-grade offers definite advantages by reducing the strain on the pneumatic starter and battery and delivering oil pressure sooner... it's better to have full oil pressure and parts bathed in oil sooner rather than later... so during the coolest times of the year, you may opt to switch to multi-grade and of course keeping adding CamGuard. 

 And how about specific "multi-grade" oil brands to use with CamGuard?.... you're looking for very small differences between similar oil products.  No one can produce convincing field data that one oil is hands down a better choice than another... but Phillips XC is a good choice to go with CamGuard because XC is a simple mineral-based oil with anti-oxidative and anti-foam additives that responds well to CamGuard.

 So I would stick to single grade Aeroshell W100 + CamGuard for temperate climates, without subfreezing temperatures, and multi-grade oil like Phillips XC 25W-60 + CamGuard for the coolest parts of the year. 

 Of course the use of the Phillips XC, should be conditioned with the new findings from Jill (M14p engines shop in AZ) on M-14 engines that used this oil type.  Jill also mentioned that Phillips XC 25W-60 when used with CamGuard do not seem to be encountering the stuck valve problem.

 Carl

 k7wx wrote:

> Carl,

> 

> Great post!

> 

> I wonder if you, or others with insights into this have any thoughts about using CamGuard with either straight weight or multi-viscosity oils for the M-14P. I have heard anecdotally that for those engines in which CamGuard has been used look better when inspected during an overhaul. 

> 

> Another simple question. I'm breaking in a zero-time M-14P. At about 20 hours, oil temps began to come down and oil consumption leveled off. What would you consider a reasonable endpoint for the break-in period before switching from AeroShell 100 mineral oil to AeroShell 120 AD? Oil temp? Oil consumption? Minimal number of hours?

> 

> Warren Hill

> N464TW

> 

> 

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348113#348113

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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: Oil and the M-14P

On Saturday, November 5, 2011, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I was a little confused with the fact that the FBO guys appeared to be ordering me a 55 gallon drum of AeroShell 120 straight weight mineral oil. It was my understanding that straight weight mineral oils were to be used mostly for engine break-in. I have been using the AeroShell 100 during the break-in period. I think you may have mentioned on the phone that straight weight mineral oils have also been used with the M-14P for regular operation, beyond the break-in period, but I was not sure.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Should they instead be ordering me the AeroShell W120, which is an ashless dispersant oil?


	


Ah yes, the oil argument that won't die. 



I am sure you will hear lots of things about how this oil is perfect and that oil will destroy your engine. Of course which oil is which will change depending on who you talk to. 

 

Here is what is right: all these oils will work to lubricate your engine adequately. You can use straight-weight mineral oil, AD oil, anti-scuff additives, and/or multi-viscosity oil. The only thing you really need to make sure is that you get adequate flow when cold to ensure all parts of the engine get adequate lubrication. You also need to make sure that the oil has sufficient viscosity to maintain a proper lubricating film when hot.

 

Want to use straight-weight mineral oil? No problem. Fly often and change oil often. Want to use cam guard? No problem. Want to use an AD oil? No problem. You will probably have a cleaner engine at overhaul and fewer combustion chamber deposits. Want to use a multi-vis oil? No problem. You can get away with not switching oils when weather changes in that case. 

 

So, do what you like. Change oil often, fly often for long periods so that the oil comes up to operating temperature and stays there for 30 minutes, and select proper viscosity to match ambient temperatures. everything else is rhetoric. 

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

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k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: Oil and the M-14P

Thanks Brian,



Warren Hill

 

On Nov 5, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

[quote]On Saturday, November 5, 2011, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I was a little confused with the fact that the FBO guys appeared to be ordering me a 55 gallon drum of AeroShell 120 straight weight mineral oil. It was my understanding that straight weight mineral oils were to be used mostly for engine break-in. I have been using the AeroShell 100 during the break-in period. I think you may have mentioned on the phone that straight weight mineral oils have also been used with the M-14P for regular operation, beyond the break-in period, but I was not sure.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Should they instead be ordering me the AeroShell W120, which is an ashless dispersant oil?


	


Ah yes, the oil argument that won't die. 



I am sure you will hear lots of things about how this oil is perfect and that oil will destroy your engine. Of course which oil is which will change depending on who you talk to. 

 

Here is what is right: all these oils will work to lubricate your engine adequately. You can use straight-weight mineral oil, AD oil, anti-scuff additives, and/or multi-viscosity oil. The only thing you really need to make sure is that you get adequate flow when cold to ensure all parts of the engine get adequate lubrication. You also need to make sure that the oil has sufficient viscosity to maintain a proper lubricating film when hot.

 

Want to use straight-weight mineral oil? No problem. Fly often and change oil often. Want to use cam guard? No problem. Want to use an AD oil? No problem. You will probably have a cleaner engine at overhaul and fewer combustion chamber deposits. Want to use a multi-vis oil? No problem. You can get away with not switching oils when weather changes in that case. 

 

So, do what you like. Change oil often, fly often for long periods so that the oil comes up to operating temperature and stays there for 30 minutes, and select proper viscosity to match ambient temperatures. everything else is rhetoric. 

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

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CD 2.0

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Oil and the M-14P

Warren,

Adding to what Brian said, when selecting an oil type, main factors to consider are budget, climate and flying habits... 

If you fly your airplane regularly any oil should work fine.... If it goes weeks without been flown then you need an oil that will run off slower from the metal parts and will give some amount of protection during startup with essentially a dry cam and tappet bodies. Corrosion is a common problem after the oil runs off, especially in radial engines. 

To put it in another perspective, a pilot flying 5 hours a week should use a different oil type than someone flying twice a month.  Those who fly “regularly” and only use oil as the Aeroshell W120 will not see any signs of corrosion or wear in their engines even if they don’t use CamGuard. A weekly flight of at least 30 minutes is much better for your engine then any oil or additive you can buy.... but if you don't fly weekly and want to significantly reduce rust and improve lubrication, CamGuard is a good option. 

For an easier understanding of what improvements are in line with specific combinations, I would recommend doing an oil analysis prior to making any changes, in this case using CamGuard for the first time.  Then do the oil analysis after the next 25 hours with the additive. You’ll most likely notice a fairly dramatic change in wear metals for the better. That was the experience of many who are quite sold on the product but there is nothing like testing it by yourself. 

There is also the option of Aero Shell W100 Plus, an ashless dispersant (AD type) with “corrosion and anti-wear protection”.  Notice that Aero Shell 100W and Aero Shell 100W Plus are different oils.  With the “Plus” option, CamGuard may not be necessary and still help with corrosion issues when not flying regularly. The W100 Plus, has anti-wear additives that help to increase the service life of critical engine parts by acting as a protective layer particularly at high temperatures. It will also help to protect against corrosion when the aircraft is parked or in short term storage being that it is an excellent wear and corrosion protection oil. 

AeroShell 120 or W120 ? 

I would stick with the W120 for long term use....  Most A&P shops recommend using non-ashless dispersant (AD) oils for the break-in process as well as “switching” to a high quality (AD) oil similar to the W80, W100 or W120 after the first 25 to 50 hours post-overhaul. 

Precision Engines, in addition to recommending Aeroshells oils for the break-in, (moderate to warm climates grade 120 and grade 100 for colder climates)....  they also suggest the use of (AD) mineral oil types after the break-in process.  

AeroShell Oils like 80, 100 and 120 are used when dispersant additive (AD) is “not required”, mainly during the break-in of a new piston engine or those recently overhauled.

AeroShell Oils W80, W100 and W120 ashless dispersant oils, combine non-metallic additives with high viscosity index base oils, giving great stability, dispersancy and anti-foaming performance.  Definitely the one I would use with or without CamGuard.  

Carl

 	  k7wx wrote: 	
		  Hello Carl,

Thanks for your help on the phone this last Thursday.

I was a little confused with the fact that the FBO guys appeared to be ordering me a 55 gallon drum of AeroShell 120 straight weight mineral oil. It was my understanding that straight weight mineral oils were to be used mostly for engine break-in. I have been using the AeroShell 100 during the break-in period. I think you may have mentioned on the phone that straight weight mineral oils have also been used with the M-14P for regular operation, beyond the break-in period, but I was not sure. 

Should they instead be ordering me the AeroShell W120, which is an ashless dispersant oil?

Just looking to get it right. Whatever I get, will combine it with CamGurad. 

All the best,

Warren

Warren E. Hill, MD, FACS

5620 E. Broadway Road

Mesa, AZ  85206

Tel: +1-480-981-6111

FAX: +1-480-985-2426

hill(at)doctor-hill.com

www.doctor-hill.com

On Jul 30, 2011, at 9:27 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Warren, 

 CamGuard exceptional performance, beats the pants off any premium oils for corrosion protection and anti-wear properties... 

 Lots of owners are complaining about corrosion problems in engines. Part of this is because of reduced flight activity due to higher fuel prices and economic uncertainties.  CamGuard isn’t a slam dunk solution to corrosion problems, but it’s the best solution out there because it provides "marginally and measurably" better corrosion and anti-wear resistance than any oil out there.

 Multi-weight versus mono-grades with CamGuard... in desert climates like AZ as well as temperate areas like California, the airplane won't see wide swings in temperature. Although corrosion is less of a problem in these areas and you could go with a multi-grade per se, I would stick with the Aeroshell W100 + the CamGuard. At lower temperatures, multi-grade offers definite advantages by reducing the strain on the pneumatic starter and battery and delivering oil pressure sooner... it's better to have full oil pressure and parts bathed in oil sooner rather than later... so during the coolest times of the year, you may opt to switch to multi-grade and of course keeping adding CamGuard. 

 And how about specific "multi-grade" oil brands to use with CamGuard?.... you're looking for very small differences between similar oil products.  No one can produce convincing field data that one oil is hands down a better choice than another... but Phillips XC is a good choice to go with CamGuard because XC is a simple mineral-based oil with anti-oxidative and anti-foam additives that responds well to CamGuard.

 So I would stick to single grade Aeroshell W100 + CamGuard for temperate climates, without subfreezing temperatures, and multi-grade oil like Phillips XC 25W-60 + CamGuard for the coolest parts of the year. 

 Of course the use of the Phillips XC, should be conditioned with the new findings from Jill (M14p engines shop in AZ) on M-14 engines that used this oil type.  Jill also mentioned that Phillips XC 25W-60 when used with CamGuard do not seem to be encountering the stuck valve problem.

 Carl

 k7wx wrote:

> Carl,

> 

> Great post!

> 

> I wonder if you, or others with insights into this have any thoughts about using CamGuard with either straight weight or multi-viscosity oils for the M-14P. I have heard anecdotally that for those engines in which CamGuard has been used look better when inspected during an overhaul. 

> 

> Another simple question. I'm breaking in a zero-time M-14P. At about 20 hours, oil temps began to come down and oil consumption leveled off. What would you consider a reasonable endpoint for the break-in period before switching from AeroShell 100 mineral oil to AeroShell 120 AD? Oil temp? Oil consumption? Minimal number of hours?

> 

> Warren Hill

> N464TW

> 

> 

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348113#348113

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

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