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Insurance Question for the Group

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sfarner

Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

Apologies in advance if this is supposed to go in a different forum, but since we were talking insurance last week, I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction.    

   

I am an RV 10 builder in the early stages. It looks like I’m going to be on the “ultra slow build” plan.  In the meantime, I have access to a Bonanza, but am having some insurance issues.  I have 350 hours and an instrument rating, 25 hours complex.  I cannot be put on as a named insured under his policy because I need 750 hours and 100 hours in type.  This is because he has a higher liability coverage than the norm of $1,000,000.  

   

I’m content with a $1,000,000 policy while I build time, but have not found a carrier that will insure two different pilots in the same aircraft at different levels of liability coverage.  The explanation from the agent is that courts have always upheld the higher liability under situations like this, so they just won’t do it.   

   

It just seems like a person like me should have a way to fly a Bonanza.  If anyone has ideas, let me know.  Thanks!  

   

Steve Farner    

      [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

It sounds like although you have access to a Bonanza, you really

don't have access to a Bonanza that YOU can use.  I don't know

ANYTHING about the insurance industry other than the standard 1M

type policies, so I'm no good for advice there, but, you're

doing the right things. (i.e. the 350 hours and an

instrument rating and 25 in complex)  My advice for ALL pilots is

to go build time before flying their RV-10.  Get 100-200 hours

if possible, just for insurance sake, if not more. Then

DEFINITELY get the instrument rating, and go get HP signoff

before you even get to fly your RV-10.  All those things are

worth it in the skills you get, plus they'll help with your

insurance rates.



My guess is, if you could find a different Bonanaza, or you

owned your own, that you'd be insurable just fine, and would

probably start at a higher rate but after a year the rate

would drop and keep dropping as you build time in type.

The >1M liability is probably killing you with that deal you

have now.



The RV-10 probably will not end up far off from the Bonanza

in how the insurance requirements work...they're similar

planes, and the RV-10 may have the higher hull value in

some cases of various model years. (Not against new ones

though)



Tim

On 11/10/2011 10:23 AM, Steve Farner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Apologies in advance if this is supposed to go in a different forum, but

 since we were talking insurance last week, I was hoping someone could

 point me in the right direction.



 I am an RV 10 builder in the early stages. It looks like I’m going to be

 on the “ultra slow build” plan. In the meantime, I have access to a

 Bonanza, but am having some insurance issues. I have 350 hours and an

 instrument rating, 25 hours complex. I cannot be put on as a named

 insured under his policy because I need 750 hours and 100 hours in type.

 This is because he has a higher liability coverage than the norm of

 $1,000,000.



 I’m content with a $1,000,000 policy while I build time, but have not

 found a carrier that will insure two different pilots in the same

 aircraft at different levels of liability coverage. The explanation from

 the agent is that courts have always upheld the higher liability under

 situations like this, so they just won’t do it.



 It just seems like a person like me should have a way to fly a Bonanza.

 If anyone has ideas, let me know. Thanks!



 Steve Farner



 *

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

I'm sure Tim is right that the higher liability is the sticking point. I was flying my D35 Bonanza when I was a 65 hours TT pilot with minimum high performance & retract sign off only. Insured by Avemco. Wow, one becomes a much better pilot with the added hours. 

Any chance the other individual will consider reducing his Liability limits? It's either that or there's a Cherokee/Cessna in your future.



Robin



--

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Insurance Question for the Group

I can explain why the insurance company won't write a separate policy for you.



In most states, the rule is that an injured party gets paid no matter what it takes, e.g., so-called "deep pockets" laws. So, for example:

Your friend has $10M liability

You have $1M

You have an accident, and the jury finds:  The injured person needs $8M.

The jury finds that you were 99% responsible; your friend the owner is 1% responsible because he let you fly, or didn't change the oil on time, or some other excuse the plantiff's attorney will find.

You owe 99% of $8M = $7.92M

Your friend owes 1% of $8M = $80,000

Your insurance pays $1M. You pay $500K, your net worth, and declare bankruptcy.

Your friend, and his insurance company, are now on the hook for the remaining $$6.5M, despite the "1% ruling".



See why they won't write you a separate policy?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

On 11/10/2011 01:35 PM, Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It's either that or there's a Cherokee/Cessna in your future.


	


	A Grumman Tiger might be a nice option more "closer" to the RV10.



-Dj

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance Question for the Group

Getting "Split Limits" is virtually impossible on smaller airplanes.  On some larger accounts it is not unusual to have them.



Example on a turboprop that might have $10m liability when "pro-flown" but only $3m when "owner flown".  These  policies bring a lot more money to the underwriter so they are more likely to do something special.



Your situation is pretty typical and not much can be done about it.  In the past i have had to cancel and re-write many policies for just this reason when a new partner came into an airplane group.  That gets to be more work than some want to do.



Not a whole lot of options in your case.



Tj

www.airpowerinsurance.com

thane

Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 56

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

I am not sure, but you have confused me with someone else.  I dont want to 

split anything, I have no partner, just me.

Are we on the same page??

Thane

---

_________________
Working on finish kit: I hate fiberglass!!

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Insurance Question for the Group

Thane, my post referenced the original post on this subject.

Nothing to do with our conversation.  

Happy Friday all.



TJ

sfarner

Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

Hi All- Thanks for the information.  Maybe if I promise to always fly the Bonanza with the gear down?  



I realize they are going by the statistics, but it is interesting/frustrating that they put so much emphasis on the gear.  I might be wrong on this, but it would seem that 100 hours in a 172RG would bring my rates dowm more than 100 hours in an RV10 (to fly a Bonanza).



The other perplexing thing is why they just won't write a policy at a higher premium.  I can see the premium doubling if I request 2m liability versus 1m, but am less clear why they won't write it at all.  Thanks for the responses!



Steve Farner



________________________________________

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50 [tomjohnson(at)cox.net]

Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:45 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Insurance Question for the Group






Getting "Split Limits" is virtually impossible on smaller airplanes.  On some larger accounts it is not unusual to have them.



Example on a turboprop that might have $10m liability when "pro-flown" but only $3m when "owner flown".  These  policies bring a lot more money to the underwriter so they are more likely to do something special.



Your situation is pretty typical and not much can be done about it.  In the past i have had to cancel and re-write many policies for just this reason when a new partner came into an airplane group.  That gets to be more work than some want to do.



Not a whole lot of options in your case.



Tj

www.airpowerinsurance.com





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357404#357404

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance Question for the Group

Steve, I'd guess you're wrong about the last post, since the emphasis here seems to be on liability coverage.



No one gets hurt in gear up landings, so retract time affects hull coverage more than liability.



OTOH, a V35 or an RV-10 is not a 172RG. Things happen much faster, it's easier for pilots to be overwhelmed, get behind, etc. I've been impressed by how quickly a 10 with full flaps can lose speed with just a little back pressure.

A 172RG doesn't even qualify as a high performance airplane per the FARs.



I may be wrong, but I'd guess it's your lack of time in a high speed airplane that's driving this.



Of course the insurance industry is hard to understand. When I was in our 182 partnership, the second $1M of liability cost more than the first $1M! I have no explanation for that.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

sfarner

Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: Insurance Question for the Group

Bob- Good point, the 172 is "complex" but not "high performance."  The email from the insurance broker said I needed "125 hours of retract," which led me to believe that 125 hours in a 172RG would help me much more than 125 hours in a Cirrus...interesting because you are right, the speed is the issue.  Thanks,



Steve



________________________________________

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Turner [bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu]

Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:04 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Insurance Question for the Group






Steve, I'd guess you're wrong about the last post, since the emphasis here seems to be on liability coverage.



No one gets hurt in gear up landings, so retract time affects hull coverage more than liability.



OTOH, a V35 or an RV-10 is not a 172RG. Things happen much faster, it's easier for pilots to be overwhelmed, get behind, etc. I've been impressed by how quickly a 10 with full flaps can lose speed with just a little back pressure.

A 172RG doesn't even qualify as a high performance airplane per the FARs.



I may be wrong, but I'd guess it's your lack of time in a high speed airplane that's driving this.



Of course the insurance industry is hard to understand. When I was in our 182 partnership, the second $1M of liability cost more than the first $1M! I have no explanation for that.



--------

Bob Turner

RV-10 QB





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357567#357567

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