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Fwd: Flying with a level

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GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

Did this go out to the list?  I didn't see it. 



Gary

Sent from my iPad



Begin forwarded message:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



	


[quote]1. No comment

2. I said the horizontal was at zero degrees with respect to the canopy rails. I have no clue where zero lift occurs. 

3. I said between 3 and 3 1/2 degrees. That was based on calculations made years ago. I haven't checked it with my new fangled digital level. I need to do that. 

4. Based on similar wings (Clark Y, AG03, USA 35B) zero lift occurs between -1.5 and -5 degrees AOA

5. My guess would be that based on the shape of the front of the cowling, there is still lift from the front of the cowling. That is still a guess. If it is approaching zero lift, tha would be great. 

6. No comment

7. I did?

8. I did?  I thought I said, based on what I've learned, inlet sizes, weights, white arc, prop choices,  that I thought the design speed was 120 knots. Not for the Tiger. For the Traveler. The Tiger was an attempt to optimize the Traveler fuselage/wing combination. 

9. See previous email. 

10. Remove both aileron trim tabs. Tighten the cables to 35 lbs. Fine tune roll with the flaps. Look at the position of the ailerons. If one is still higher, determine if the error is not in the wing tip. I've seen wing tips 1/2 inch different side-to-side. 

11. No comment

12. I didn't know that. I thought all planes had a tendency to pitch up as speed increases. This is a very well know aerodynamic behavior. It is not unique to our planes. 

13. I've tried every possible combination of rigging of flaps and ailerons. My flaps are intentionally rigged at 7 1/2 degrees up.  Under most flight conditions, optimum speed is obtained between 0 and +2 degrees for the flaps. Under MOST conditions. There is no one single setting for all fuel loads, passenger loading, or baggage loading/distribution for optimum speed. 

* it takes an enormous amount of patience to wait for the speed to change by 1 or 2 knots for each loading condition. If you want to record each loading and each flap setting for optimum speed, you'll need a lot of dedication. 

BH, wing incidence won't gain you much, if any. Look for interference drag reduction first. 





Gary

Sent from my iPad



On Nov 22, 2011, at 9:23 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com (teamgrumman(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote] 

 

  --

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

GrummanDude

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

I have nothing to hide. Besides, I think there are a lot of folks who would like the education even if they have nothing to add. Who knows, there may be a lurker out there with some valuable information. 



Gary

Sent from my iPad



On Nov 23, 2011, at 11:03 PM, Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com (bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



[quote]>>Did this go out to the list?  I didn't see it. 

 

 No, my last several emails have gone only to you, and Bob Steward, and  Ned.  I think Ned and Bob are kind of keeping it between the four of us  as well, at least for now.

 

 Bob Hodo

 

 

 

 

[b]

_________________
Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman

Doug Doty

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Madison In

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

You are right about Lurkers. I drag raced for 25 years and crave speed and efficiency, so don't think I am not enjoying the exchange of information, I am dying to pick up a little extra MPH and smoke a  mooney or two.....

_________________
1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

It wasn't that I was trying to keep anything from the lurkers, as much as I was trying to organize my thinking, knew I was probably making some mental mis-calculations, etc.



I had sent a 13 item list to Bob S, Ned, and Gary of a combo of facts and assumptions, and immediately got two corrections from Ned, and later a string from Gary.



I won't re-print the errant first draft, but will come back later on with some ideas, or at least observations I have never seen addressed either here or on the grumman gang.



I have not seen a word about any of this on the GG so far.



It began with Ned asking a very reasonable question about whether a certain amount of split elevator might not be a lower drag arrangement.



Then Ned said something about flying with a level on his canopy rails, so I had to go fly the cheetah and see what my level  would show me.



Now I have downloaded an inclinometer for both my droid x and my Motorola Xoom, and am surprised at my first few readings.



I have also been staring at a wing rib borrowed from Bob Steward.  I am convinced that we do not need to go into the experimental category to find some speed and economy that Roy Lo-Presti said was in there.



....................



For the moment I will offer this:  Our canopy rails and the floor under the front seat, and the HS appear to all be parallel to each other.



When the flat bottom of the fuselage bends upwards, it does so at a 7 degree angle.  I am told that is a significant number.



When my cheetah is strait and level at 140 knots, the canopy rails are more than 1 degree ( 1.27 is my first measurement ) nose down.  That means that rear section is 8.27 degrees nose down.



I just don't see how that is not a problem from a  fuselage drag standpoint, nevermind what the empenage is experiencing.



Another thing most of you do not know is that our wings are NOT flat on the bottom.  They are flat with a 4+ degree bend just like the bottom of the fuselage has its 7 degree bend.



The aft flat section of the wing sits two degrees nose down to the canopy rails, the flat front section being just more than 2 degrees nose up.  By the time we reflex our flaps or ailerons or both, the bottom side of our wing is just horrible compared to that beautiful camber on the top.



And then I walk across the maintenance hanger and look at that wing on the Cirrus SR22...



Bob Hodo

GADsden, AL,  I need to start smoking a pipe.



 [quote][b]

Doug Doty

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Madison In

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

I am always looking for some place to go so maybe I'll swing over that way and compare notes some day, I am going to Florida to get warm soon and Louisiana to visit a son healing from an  Afghanistan wound a while back. I look at it.



Doug...

_________________
1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

This is the basic 64-415 airfoil. It really is a nice airfoil. Too bad the leading edge was messed with:  http://worldofkrauss.com/foils/1674

7 or 8 degree rise in the aft fuselage in flight, though not all that optimum, is not that bad from a flow separation stand point. Just look at the aft end of an Aerostar. Crawl under your plane after filling it with 8 qts of oil and flying for an hour. The oil streaks are quite uniform. A while back, I put dye on the sides where the fuselage breaks. Not great but not all that bad. 

Any chance of getting the ribs to build a 64-415 wing for a Tiger?

Just an observation:  look at the leading edge of a late AG5B.  It's a lot sharper than a 70s era wing. 



Gary

Sent from my iPad



On Nov 24, 2011, at 7:51 PM, Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com (bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



[quote]It wasn't that I was trying to keep anything from the lurkers, as much as I was trying to organize my thinking, knew I was probably making some mental mis-calculations, etc.



I had sent a 13 item list to Bob S, Ned, and Gary of a combo of facts and assumptions, and immediately got two corrections from Ned, and later a string from Gary.



I won't re-print the errant first draft, but will come back later on with some ideas, or at least observations I have never seen addressed either here or on the grumman gang.



I have not seen a word about any of this on the GG so far.



It began with Ned asking a very reasonable question about whether a certain amount of split elevator might not be a lower drag arrangement.



Then Ned said something about flying with a level on his canopy rails, so I had to go fly the cheetah and see what my level  would show me.



Now I have downloaded an inclinometer for both my droid x and my Motorola Xoom, and am surprised at my first few readings.



I have also been staring at a wing rib borrowed from Bob Steward.  I am convinced that we do not need to go into the experimental category to find some speed and economy that Roy Lo-Presti said was in there.



....................



For the moment I will offer this:  Our canopy rails and the floor under the front seat, and the HS appear to all be parallel to each other.



When the flat bottom of the fuselage bends upwards, it does so at a 7 degree angle.  I am told that is a significant number.



When my cheetah is strait and level at 140 knots, the canopy rails are more than 1 degree ( 1.27 is my first measurement ) nose down.  That means that rear section is 8.27 degrees nose down.



I just don't see how that is not a problem from a  fuselage drag standpoint, nevermind what the empenage is experiencing.



Another thing most of you do not know is that our wings are NOT flat on the bottom.  They are flat with a 4+ degree bend just like the bottom of the fuselage has its 7 degree bend.



The aft flat section of the wing sits two degrees nose down to the canopy rails, the flat front section being just more than 2 degrees nose up.  By the time we reflex our flaps or ailerons or both, the bottom side of our wing is just horrible compared to that beautiful camber on the top.



And then I walk across the maintenance hanger and look at that wing on the Cirrus SR22...



Bob Hodo

GADsden, AL,  I need to start smoking a pipe.



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[b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:17 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

Doug:



Say hello and thank you to your Son from me.

Barry

USAF



On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Doug Doty <39marinette(at)gmail.com (39marinette(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Doug Doty" <39marinette(at)gmail.com (39marinette(at)gmail.com)>

  

 I am always looking for some place to go so maybe I'll swing over that way and compare notes some day, I am going to Florida to get warm soon and Louisiana to visit a son healing from an  Afghanistan wound a while back. I look at it.

  

 Doug...

 

 --------

 1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359147#359147

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

So, Doug, tell us about your dragster. 



I've been looking for a C6 chassis to go under a C3. Lots of cutting and fabricating. That project will have wait until the IO360 is finished. 



Gary

Sent from my iPad



On Nov 24, 2011, at 12:25 PM, "Doug Doty" <39marinette(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You are right about Lurkers. I drag raced for 25 years and crave speed and efficiency, so don't think I am not enjoying the exchange of information, I am dying to pick up a little and smoke a certain mooney !!!!!

 

 --------

 1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359129#359129

Doug Doty

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Madison In

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

Started with big block Camaro's in the middle 80's then into the 5.0 craze in the middle 90's and back to big Chevys in Camaro's in the 05' and out and done in 08' Here is a couple of pic's of the last 8.5 outlaw car. I built for the 08 season. It made 1098 hp. with 615 ci. and conventional heads from a "Texas pro stock class" head and intake custom shop on the right coast. Lucky to have enough money left the have a couple planes and a hanger after the racing, it was fun but a major drain on finances.

_________________
1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

Doug Doty

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Madison In

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

Back to airplanes,  On my tiger during preflight today I was looking a lot harder at a few thing than normal as a result of this and the other threads and I found that if I aligned the left elevator tip on the front balance portion with the HS that my right side rode high maybe as much as 1/2" in the same far forward spot adjacent to the HS on the right side. Is this normal or do I need to get after figuring this out asap. ????????????????  It flys flat and level with no trim in the alierons buy has a good bit of trim tab bent to the right on the rudder... Help....

_________________
1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

Doug asked:

 I found that if I aligned the left elevator tip on the front balance  portion with the HS that my right side rode high maybe as much as 1/2"  in the same far forward spot adjacent to the HS on the right side. Is  this normal or do I need to get after figuring this out asap. ?



You have a typical split elevator.  1/2 inch is pretty bad.  From a structural standpoint it is the possibility of one side flopping around that is most concerning.  I doubt that if you look aft while flying you will see it doing that, however.



If you go to aya.org and click on "Maintenance Hanger" then AA5 Maintenance manual then chapter 27 and when the pdf downloads go about 60% of the way down to Fig 404 in Chapter 27-3-1 on g=page 408 you will see Item 24. BELL CRANK and item 30. TORQUE TUBE.



Basically there is a tube in a tube, and a hole drilled through both walls of both tubes and a bolt which is actually a pin that keeps the two aligned.  They wear over 30 years or so.  And it is the slop more than the misalignment that is problematic.  The first cure is an oversize bolt from Fletchair or possibly Ken Blackman that will go inside the  hole after it is redrilled to the proper next step up in size.



The problem is that you want perfect alignment before redrilling, and it is just best to let one of the guru's who have the reamer and the experience to just get it perfect.



Now Doug, I do a lot of my own maintenance on a lot of things including my cheetah.  But I gladly chose to let Bob Steward do mine.  (He supervises and trains and approves the things I do anyway, and for a while was urging me to get my A&P.)



I don't think it is dangerous to fly as it is, but it is not something that can be ignored either.  You WILL get it fixed, it might as well be right away and might as well be done by an expert.



shortcut to the .pdf at AYA.org

http://www.aya.org/s/358/images/editor_documents/content/The%20maintenance%20Manual%20is%20an%20essential%20%28and%20legally%20required/27.pdf



That's my 2 cents...



Bob Hodo

GADsden,  AL

 [quote][b]

Doug Doty

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Madison In

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

Flew today and the weather is going to be lousey for a few days starting at this very moment as I hear the rain on the skylites, so I will pull the tail cone tomorrow morning and get into it, it needs the jack screw on the trim cleaned up anyway, not feeling as smooth as it should. My IA is just across the taxiway and always happy to help. I can switch places with the 150 and it needs to be in front anyway as it is going away for a few days for some maint. too.  I'll get it taken care of before I fly it again. I just like fixing every thing I can find asap, especially on a plane like this that is still new to me and not much history with it yet. Might even get a few pic's along the way.

_________________
1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

Getting to it is no problem.  It is very likely that only one side is wallowed out.  But you won't necessarily need to go up from whatever the current standard size is to the next standard size.  Garner Rice (Fletchair, 1-800-FAWINGS) should have in stock a special size bolt that they order just for this.



But you need a special reamer to do it right, not just a drill.



Anyway, your goal of course is for them both to sit with the leading edge of the el tips matching the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer at the same time with near zero play in either elevator.



Also, since you are a tiger, you should be able to turn around in cruise flight and see them flying like that.  If your plane is fast, you will see the el tips begin to rise above the HS leading edge beginning around 140 knots or so. (Made worse by using the  cheetah trick of carrying some extra water as rear ballast.)



Good luck, and keep us posted on what you find.



BH

 [quote][b]

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:22 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

The bolts on the elevator are crowded out. Most likely the right one. Get a -19x from Garner and a G ream. Getting the ream is more of a challenge. 



Gary

Sent from my iPad



On Nov 26, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Doug Doty" <39marinette(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Back to airplanes,  On my tiger during preflight today I was looking a lot harder at a few thing than normal as a result of this and the pther threads and I found that if I aligned the left elevator tip on the front balance portion with the HS that my right side rode high maybe as much as 1/2" in the same far forward spot adjacent to the HS on the right side. Is this normal or do I need to get after figuring this out asap. ????????????????  It flys flat and level with no trim in the alierons buy has a good bit of trim tab bent to the right on the rudder... Help....

 

 --------

 1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359353#359353

Doug Doty

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Madison In

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

Thanks Gary I will be looking at it this afternoon



Doug Doty

On Nov 27, 2011, at 12:20 PM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 The bolts on the elevator are crowded out. Most likely the right one. Get a -19x from Garner and a G ream. Getting the ream is more of a challenge. 

 

 Gary

 Sent from my iPad

 

 On Nov 26, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Doug Doty" <39marinette(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Back to airplanes,  On my tiger during preflight today I was looking a lot harder at a few thing than normal as a result of this and the pther threads and I found that if I aligned the left elevator tip on the front balance portion with the HS that my right side rode high maybe as much as 1/2" in the same far forward spot adjacent to the HS on the right side. Is this normal or do I need to get after figuring this out asap. ????????????????  It flys flat and level with no trim in the alierons buy has a good bit of trim tab bent to the right on the rudder... Help....

> 

> --------

> 1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359353#359353

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

_________________
1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:07 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

Doug, 

On my web site there is a story I wrote about the "Great Race of 68."  Find is on the About AuCountry page.

I always liked big blocks.  When I was a senior in High School, I bought a 69 Road Runner coupe (posts) with a 440, 3 deuces, 4 speed, 4:10 Dana Spicer, and no other options.  Weight with me in it was 3675.  To say I did a little stop light racing would be an understatement.  I once got a ticket for not shifting between stop lights.  0-35 and back to 0 in first gear.  Oh, the stories I could tell.

Gary

ps.  I may add them to my web site.

       From: Doug Doty <39marinette(at)gmail.com>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 2:07 PM

 Subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

  

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Doug Doty" <39marinette(at)gmail.com (39marinette(at)gmail.com)>



Started with big block Camaro's in the middle 80's then into the 5.0 craze in the middle 90's and back to big Chevys in Camaro's in the 05' and out and done in 08' Here is a couple of pic's of the last 8.5 outlaw car. I built for the 08 season. It made 1098 hp. with 615 ci. and conventional heads from a "Texas pro stock class" head and intake custom shop on the right coast. Lucky to have enough money left the have a couple planes and a hanger after the racing, it was fun but a major drain on finances.



--------

1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl. egt, stock otherwise.





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359351#359351www.aeroelectric.com[b]http



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: Fwd: Flying with a level

The elevator trim jack screw on the Project X AG5B was so corroded I had to soak it in Liquid Wrench and still use Vice Grips to work it loose.  The previous owner had disconnected the pitch trim on the S-Tec 30; probably because he couldn't adjust trim.

That plane was so filthy and disgusting that you just wouldn't believe it.  Plane was maintained by a shop in Columbia, CA.  

       From: Doug Doty <39marinette(at)gmail.com>

 To:  teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:25 PM

 Subject: Re: Fwd: Flying with a level

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Doug Doty" <39marinette(at)gmail.com (39marinette(at)gmail.com)>

Flew today and the weather is going to be lousey for a few days starting at this very moment as I hear the rain on the skylites, so I will pull the tail cone tomorrow morning and get into it, it needs the jack screw on the trim cleaned up anyway, not feeling as smooth as it should. My IA is just across the taxiway and always happy to help. I can switch places with the 150 and it needs to be in front anyway as it is going away for a few days for some maint. too.  I'll get it taken care of before I fly it again. I just like fixing every thing I can find asap, especially on a plane like this that is still new to me and not much history with it yet. Might even get a few pic's along the way.

--------

1977 AA5B N28454, Fuel Totalizer, Lopresti Nose, Red Rudder Cap, 4 cyl.  egt, stock otherwise.

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359375#359375

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