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Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: water temp 582

I think my KF2 is ready to fly  but the water temp is 185  on static run up 

egt,s are good any body got a good way of checking the water  temp gage / 

sender? Like an inferred thermostat gun or something? how much  radiator fluid 

should be in the small bottle cold and  hot?

akfotoman

Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: water temp 582

During break-in I found it hard to keep my water temp below 190F and it even

flies at 185F and when climbing 190F. I took out the thermostat, put in a

thermometer and checked the water temp,( engine off) and also checked the

thermostat opening temp by putting it in hot H20 with a thermometer to

monitor that also.

Some engines run hotter than others, and some gauges are not as accurate as

they claim to be.

RS

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety

deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

--

_________________
Have cameras, will travel!

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: water temp 582

In a message dated 5/24/2006 9:01:27 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  

foto(at)alaska.net writes:



During  break-in I found it hard to keep my water temp below 190F and it even

flies  at 185F and when climbing 190F. I took out the thermostat, put in  a

thermometer and checked the water temp,( engine off) and also checked  the

thermostat opening temp by putting it in hot H20 with a thermometer  to

monitor that also.

Some engines run hotter than others, and some  gauges are not as accurate as

they claim to  be.

RS



About a year ago I flew my KF to Rotax service center for a 150 hour carbon  

looksie.  I dont want to say who, but the did a REALLY nice job, but man it  

all of a sudden ran "hot".

 

The short story is, the ratio of water to Glycol is VERY important.   Water 

is much better at taking away heat than the Glycol.  When we drained  and 

properly measured the ratio 50/50, instant 180!

 

Something else to consider...

 

Dave

torgemor(at)online.no
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: water temp 582

Hi Mal,



Check your water temp system by use of a boiling kettle, put the water 

temp tip into the boiling water -then read 210 deg. F at your indicator 

(remember to set the master switch to on as the water temp system need 12 

VDC for working).



For further fault finding got to Westach:



http://www.westach.com/repair.htm



then roll down to: "WATER, OIL, AIR, and CARBURETOR TEMPERATURE" section.



good luck.



regards

Torgeir.



On Wed, 24 May 2006 21:41:41 EDT, <Malcolmbru(at)aol.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I think my KF2 is ready to fly  but the water temp is 185  on static run 

 up

 egt,s are good any body got a good way of checking the water  temp gage /

 sender? Like an inferred thermostat gun or something? how much  radiator 

 fluid

 should be in the small bottle cold and  hot?






	


-- 

Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

torgemor(at)online.no
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: water temp 582

Sorry Mal, a correction here - you should read 212 deg. F (100 deg C) - 

equal to the temp of boiling water (at sea level of course.    )



Torgeir.

On Thu, 25 May 2006 22:55:07 +0200, Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor(at)online.no> 

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Mal,



 Check your water temp system by use of a boiling kettle, put the water

 temp tip into the boiling water -then read 210 deg. F at your indicator

 (remember to set the master switch to on as the water temp system need 12

 VDC for working).



 For further fault finding got to Westach:



 http://www.westach.com/repair.htm



 then roll down to: "WATER, OIL, AIR, and CARBURETOR TEMPERATURE" section.



 good luck.



 regards

 Torgeir.



 On Wed, 24 May 2006 21:41:41 EDT, <Malcolmbru(at)aol.com> wrote:



> 

>

> I think my KF2 is ready to fly  but the water temp is 185  on static run

> up

> egt,s are good any body got a good way of checking the water  temp gage 

> /

> sender? Like an inferred thermostat gun or something? how much  radiator

> fluid

> should be in the small bottle cold and  hot?

>

>




	


-- 

Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: water temp 582

Mal -

   

  Another consideration is that with a static test run, there's very little airflow passing through your radiator. Some have suggested that you hose down the radiator during static testing to keep temps down. If you didn't do something like that, you may well see that 185 reading drop to 170 or below when you're blowing 65 mph air thru the rad. 

  

Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor(at)online.no> wrote:

  



Hi Mal,



Check your water temp system by use of a boiling kettle, put the water 

temp tip into the boiling water -then read 210 deg. F at your indicator 

(remember to set the master switch to on as the water temp system need 12 

VDC for working).



For further fault finding got to Westach:



http://www.westach.com/repair.htm



then roll down to: "WATER, OIL, AIR, and CARBURETOR TEMPERATURE" section.



good luck.



regards

Torgeir.



On Wed, 24 May 2006 21:41:41 EDT, wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I think my KF2 is ready to fly but the water temp is 185 on static run 

 up

 egt,s are good any body got a good way of checking the water temp gage /

 sender? Like an inferred thermostat gun or something? how much radiator 

 fluid

 should be in the small bottle cold and hot?






	


-- 

Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/



Marco Menezes

Model 2 582 N99KX

		

---------------------------------

 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: water temp 582

Oh, yeah. This works, by golly!

But man, you should have heard the ass-chewing when she came home and found

the dining room table and chairs in the lawn, and a Kitfox in the kitchen.



My butt's still sore...



Bradley



--

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: water temp 582

At 03:32 PM 5/25/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Another consideration is that with a static test run, there's very little 

airflow passing through your radiator.


	


I wondered about this. I recently ran for about 30 minutes on the ground 

with all temperatures good except the water stabilized at 190. (582.) I 

assumed it was OK, since it was a ground run, but Dave Stevenson seemed to 

think 190 was too high, even for a full power ground run. What do you think?

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

rexjan(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: water temp 582

Hi ! Malcolm,

                         I think in normal weather static 185 deg is to =

be expected. You have no airflow over the radiator. Mine will do this =

and yet fly on about 175 deg. At the moment we are  in winter here in =

Australia and last weekend it flew at only 145 deg so really it needed a =

bit warmer. I don't think you need to worry just because you see 185 deg =

static but keep in mind all the advice you get.

                                                                         =

                                                                         =

                                                              Rex.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: water temp 582

I'll go along with Dave Stevenson.  180 is the max Rotax spec and should be 

respected whether observed on the ground, in the air or, sitting on a test 

bench.  Temperature is Temperature.



Don Smythe

---

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: water temp 582

I have been to Rotax seminars and it has been discussed .

176 F is the Rotax spec as Maximum but the consensus was that 180 to 200 is 

the caution area.

Over 200F is the danger zone.  Once you boil over you will most likely see 

some cylinder damage. Now where it boils over ?  Well Water alone is 212 F 

and with Antifreeze a bit higher.

Needless to  say I hope everyone uses distilled water and dexcool only . If 

not Kiss your RV shaft and seals good bye at some point.



I have a 582 and  the rad is attached just about under the control stick. 

Seems to work fine there and on 90F days I will see 190F on climbout but it 

will cruise 160 to 180 F .  I have seen foxes with the Rad too far forward 

and get really bad cooling. I think the farther back the better and also a 

new rad maybe a few inches wider and a bit thicker would help too I think.

Also temp gauges are not certified accurate so once gauge at 190 F might be 

170 or 195 in reality.



Here is a link to a Rotax shop that does seminars.

http://www.rotaxservice.com/documents/2STref.pdf





Dave



---

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: water temp 582

Guy,

One thing I would like to add is on initial start up and Break - in you can 

attach a garden hose in front of rad to allow for the extra cooling you may 

need on ground.



Your Rotax breakin for new engines should be just over 1 hour in length and 

with spurts up to 6500 RPM .

You will need the extra cooling for sure on the Kitfox unless it is very 

cold outside.  The breakin is essential to seat your rings and also temper 

them.  So follow that schedule closely.   If is a good idea to mix your fuel 

at 1%  oil as well  in addition to the regular  oil injection to ensure 

adequate lubrication.  After breakin go and fly circuits for an hour to 

finish the breakin process and see if you can stop smiling   



If you need a copy of it it can be found in the rotax manuals --  I might 

have a copy of you need -- let me know.

Dave



---

algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: water temp 582

When I ran my 582 in on the ground I experienced similar temps at WOT. I ran

a hose to the outside of the rad and applied additional cooling to keep

temps below 180 for the remainder of the run in period



Once it was in the air I still had initial problems with high temps but

solved this by lowering the rad 1" to get better airflow. I believe this is

a pretty common mod that most 582 owners have done.



My temps since then are 175 on Climb (sometimes 180 on extended climb in

summer) and 170 in cruise



Regards



Gary Algate



Mal -

   

  Another consideration is that with a static test run, there's very little

airflow passing through your radiator. Some have suggested that you hose

down the radiator during static testing to keep temps down. If you didn't do

something like that, you may well see that 185 reading drop to 170 or below

when you're blowing 65 mph air thru the rad.

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: water temp 582

At 04:27 AM 5/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  One thing I would like to add is on initial start up and Break - in you can

attach a garden hose in front of rad to allow for the extra cooling you may

need on ground.



Your Rotax breakin for new engines should be just over 1 hour in length and

with spurts up to 6500 RPM .


	


..



 	  Quote: 	
		  Dave


	


Dave,

         Fortunately Bob Robertson already broke the engine in on the bench 

some years ago. I'm just checking systems now. The water is a good idea, 

though I'll have to dig around at the airport to get some.

         My main question was whether 190 on the ground results in 

something less in the air. Nobody's said anything definitive either way so 

I'll just have to try it.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: water temp 582

At 05:34 AM 5/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  When I ran my 582 in on the ground I experienced similar temps at WOT. I ran

a hose to the outside of the rad and applied additional cooling to keep

temps below 180 for the remainder of the run in period



Once it was in the air I still had initial problems with high temps but

solved this by lowering the rad 1" to get better airflow. I believe this is

a pretty common mod that most 582 owners have done.


	


Thanks Gary,

         I've got the Skystar radiator cowl which I've reworked so all the 

inlet flow goes through the radiator. The interesting thing is that my 

round cowl has an exhaust protrusion which appears to block about half the 

radiator inlet! My only hope is that 1) the radiator cowl has more inlet 

than necessary; and 2) that I'll have excessive flow through the engine 

cowl which will feed into the radiator. Unfortunately this latter will be 

heated somewhat which won't be helping my cooling at all. Dropping the 

radiator cowl necessitates major rework. I could also cut away the engine 

cowl exhaust protrusion, but that would also look messy. Hopefully it 

doesn't make first flight more exciting than necessary!

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: water temp 582

 	  Quote: 	
		           My main question was whether 190 on the ground results in

 something less in the air. Nobody's said anything definitive either way so


	


The level flying temps should be less than the ground runup temps. However, 

during climbout on a hot day you may see temps over 180.  During those times 

I used to reduce power and step climb to keep things below 180.  I do not 

allow my temps to go above 180 under any circumstances.  That's just my 

rule.  Normal cruise on the average should be around 165 or so.



Don Smythe

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: water temp 582

I'll go out on a limb, Guy. I'll bet a beer that your 190 becomes 170 at 65 mph. Takers? But before you try it in the air, do a run-up as suggested with water from a hose directed over the rad. If it's still 190, bet's off. 



Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:  



At 04:27 AM 5/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  One thing I would like to add is on initial start up and Break - in you can

attach a garden hose in front of rad to allow for the extra cooling you may

need on ground.



Your Rotax breakin for new engines should be just over 1 hour in length and

with spurts up to 6500 RPM .


	


..



 	  Quote: 	
		  Dave


	


Dave,

Fortunately Bob Robertson already broke the engine in on the bench 

some years ago. I'm just checking systems now. The water is a good idea, 

though I'll have to dig around at the airport to get some.

My main question was whether 190 on the ground results in 

something less in the air. Nobody's said anything definitive either way so 

I'll just have to try it.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 



Marco Menezes

Model 2 582 N99KX

		

---------------------------------

 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: water temp 582

 	  Quote: 	
		  >solved this by lowering the rad 1" to get better airflow. I believe this 

>is a pretty common mod that most 582 owners have done.>>


	


I had the problem and tried lowering the rad 1",  2" and then way forward. 

The way forward worked the best for me (ahead of the cowl exhaust).

 	  Quote: 	
		  > inlet flow goes through the radiator. The interesting thing is that my 

> round cowl has an exhaust protrusion which appears to block about half 

> the >>


	


That bothered me too.  I ended up cutting off  that bottom protrusion and 

fiberglassing the bottom of the round cowl  to be straight across.  I then 

added two reverse scoops on either side of the cowl to provide cowl exhaust. 

Next, I fabricated a cowl for the radiator that extends the full width of 

the aircraft bottom and all the way back to the aft carry thru tube.  The 

front inlet almost blends in with the bottom of the round cowl.  All air 

coming off the bottom nose of the aircraft is funneled into the rad cowl. 

The new rad cowl has two independent cockpit controlled flaps on the back of 

the rad.  With two controls vice one, I can control the water temps under 

just about any circumstance.

    I spent a lot of time trying different things to keep my temps below 

180.  WaterWetter, no thermostat, moving radiator all over the place, 

different antifreeze ratios, etc, etc.  This mod seems to have done the 

trick and also gives me the ability to keep temps "high" during cold weather 

decents.  This is valuable for go arounds when the water cools off too much.



Don Smythe





 	  Quote: 	
		   radiator inlet! My only hope is that 1) the radiator cowl has more inlet

 than necessary; and 2) that I'll have excessive flow through the engine

 cowl which will feed into the radiator. Unfortunately this latter will be

 heated somewhat which won't be helping my cooling at all. Dropping the

 radiator cowl necessitates major rework. I could also cut away the engine

 cowl exhaust protrusion, but that would also look messy. Hopefully it

 doesn't make first flight more exciting than necessary!

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: water temp 582

Yes - I agree Marco.



Also I think i mentioned in last post that the further back the rad the 

better the cooling. Some Avids have the rad back by the Wing Attach struts 

and seem to run super cool.



Mine sits right below the control sticks in Kitfox IV  and no heating issues 

at all.



Dave



---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: water temp 582

Hi Don,



If you have the time, could you sum up the results

from each of your changes?  How much improvement did

you get from changing the ratios, adding waterwetter,

moving the radiator, adding the scoop, etc?  You might

prevent some tail-chasing for me and others.



Also, did your scoop change your performance any? 

Speed or climb?



Kurt S. S-5



--- Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   That bothered me too.  I ended up cutting off  that

 bottom protrusion and 

 fiberglassing the bottom of the round cowl  to be

 straight across.  I then 

 added two reverse scoops on either side of the cowl

 to provide cowl exhaust. 

 Next, I fabricated a cowl for the radiator that

 extends the full width of 

 the aircraft bottom and all the way back to the aft

 carry thru tube.  The 

 front inlet almost blends in with the bottom of the

 round cowl.  All air 

 coming off the bottom nose of the aircraft is

 funneled into the rad cowl. 

 The new rad cowl has two independent cockpit

 controlled flaps on the back of 

 the rad.  With two controls vice one, I can control

 the water temps under 

 just about any circumstance.

     I spent a lot of time trying different things to

 keep my temps below 

 180.  WaterWetter, no thermostat, moving radiator

 all over the place, 

 different antifreeze ratios, etc, etc.  This mod

 seems to have done the 

 trick and also gives me the ability to keep temps

 "high" during cold weather 

 decents.  This is valuable for go arounds when the

 water cools off too much.

 

 Don Smythe


	


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