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Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Is it my imagination or are most of the speeds and feeds stated in the 

article BS.



Flap extension speed = 115 knots

22" & 2300  producing 160 to 165 knots indicated, true even higher

Target speed on final = 98 knots



Seems like an old school factory ride where none of the numbers can be 

believed.  Or is just as simple as scrambling mph and knots (which 

again, is how old school reviews were done).



Bill

rv10flyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

First off I believe the demo plane(s) are MPH so believe everything as MPH, 

those flying and have done the transition training in Tx, know that Alex 

teaches the Vans way 90-95 MPH on final. I floated at that speed, at 98 

knots I call that a "fly-by". As far as flaps I believe the flap speed is 

100knots per Alex so that would be 115 MPH.



Yes, I thought it was a great marketing article. I can tell you that at 5500 

MSl 22/2300 I saw 159 TAS/ 140 indicated or 161 MPH.



So I conclude it is MPH not Knots. That would be about right in that case.



Pascal

--

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

I too assumed the numbers must be MPH.



Also, the "flap speed" mentioned is only for the first two notches. Vans recommends something slower (87 KIAS as I recall) for full flaps.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

I noticed the numbers being all over the place too, very odd.



With Mike Seager I was taught 85-90 mph from  initial to base and to final.

I usually preferred the 85 mph on relatively calm day, stay at 9o mph if

windy.

We used 100 mph for Vfe. 

At 23" and 2400 I think we would see about 165 Mph IAS. 

-Chris

N919AR



--

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Yes, it looks like a lot of confusion over mph and knots, though the 

confusion isn't even consistent.



So much of what we do is about precision.  One of the reasons so many of 

us are here with the RV line is the refreshing veracity of Van's 

performance quotes.  I'm sure they're not looking for marketing hype of 

this kind.



Budd, gush if you like, but leave the numbers alone unless you make the 

effort to get them right!



Bill "entertained but not enlightened... think I'll just go fly 

tomorrow" Watson



On 11/30/2011 6:41 PM, Pascal wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 First off I believe the demo plane(s) are MPH so believe everything as 

 MPH, those flying and have done the transition training in Tx, know 

 that Alex teaches the Vans way 90-95 MPH on final. I floated at that 

 speed, at 98 knots I call that a "fly-by". As far as flaps I believe 

 the flap speed is 100knots per Alex so that would be 115 MPH.



 Yes, I thought it was a great marketing article. I can tell you that 

 at 5500 MSl 22/2300 I saw 159 TAS/ 140 indicated or 161 MPH.



 So I conclude it is MPH not Knots. That would be about right in that 

 case.



 Pascal

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

"One of the reasons so many of 

us are here with the RV line is the refreshing veracity of Van's 

performance quotes."

Amen.



I think that's why the grins are so large. 



I still can't get over the fact that something I put together came in at book weight, and makes book speeds.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Wow. 1.3 Vso if you believe Van's advertised numbers is 82mph at gross wt of 2700. I could see 85mph on final decreasing to 80 over the fence. Most folks are going to make the majority of their landings at least 100-200lbs below gross, which would indicate even lower numbers. Of course if less flaps are used, speeds would have to go up. I'd have to believe that Van's landing distance numbers are achieved with lower speeds.

 

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Pascal <rv10flyer(at)verizon.net (rv10flyer(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)verizon.net (rv10flyer(at)verizon.net)>

 

 First off I believe the demo plane(s) are MPH so believe everything as MPH, those flying and have done the transition training in Tx, know that Alex teaches the Vans way 90-95 MPH on final. I floated at that speed, at 98 knots I call that a "fly-by". As far as flaps I believe the flap speed is 100knots per Alex so that would be 115 MPH.

  

 Yes, I thought it was a great marketing article. I can tell you that at 5500 MSl 22/2300 I saw 159 TAS/ 140 indicated or 161 MPH.

 

 So I conclude it is MPH not Knots. That would be about right in that case.

 

 Pascal

 

 

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Kelly,



I'd guess most cfi's will recommend a somewhat high approach speed, especially for new comers to the plane, because, compared to a typical Cessna, it is much easier to inadvertently apply a little back pressure on final. And if you do, especially with full flaps, the plane loses speed rapidly.



I'd say it works out well with a nice gentle round out, because then your over-the-fence speed ends up being quite a bit lower.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Had to chime in here.... flying back to TX last Sat from SoCal I was informed halfway that conditions were terrible... winds at destination 30mph gusting 45, and the airport I was landing at it also meant a 60 degree crosswind landing... all that coupled with a low, very low, left main tire. (which later meant wheel pant repair)  In an attempt to reach home before dark, I ran an rpm setting 200 higher than I normally do.  (and yes, I normally cruise at 2,100rpm.... 3 blade MT, and lot's of hp)   Attached is a pic of my panel during the last part of the trip.... 2300rpm, 20.2mp, 10.7gph, 21.6mpg, 166mph IAS, 199mph TAS, 231mph GS, 11,700', winds 316 at 81mph with crosswind comp of 69mph.

This is a great  plane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OK, I threw in a pic taken several days before while I was heading from Fullerton to the Sacramento area, showing my normal cruise rpm of 2,100, 21.5mp (not  WOT, ck quadrant), 8,500', 9.8gph, 19.6mpg, 164mph IAS, 189mph TAS, 192mph GS.

 

Two weeks ago we ran some speed checks with 3 RV10's and an RV7.  5,500', wot, 2,500rpm.... all 3 10's were within 3mph, with the fastest achieving 207TAS... the 7 was about 5mph slower.  We did not work on mixture or see if a slightly higher rpm would have increased the TAS.

 

Some other very useful info for others out there like me (cheap)....  Cruising back from Sedona last month at 9,500' with my normal settings the ground speed was 181knots while burning 10.0 gph.   Pushed the levers forward... wot and 2,500rpm, although speed increased a whopping 7 knots (a 3.8% increase), the fuel burn was now 16.6 (a 66% increase).... NOT a good tradeoff. 

 

Don McDonald

Flying, and loving every minute.



     

  From: Chris <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:48 PM

 Subject: RE: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

  

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com (toaster73(at)embarqmail.com)>



I noticed the numbers being all over the place too, very odd.



With Mike Seager I was taught 85-90 mph from  initial to base and to final.

I usually preferred the 85 mph on relatively calm day, stay at 9o mph if

windy.

We used 100 mph for Vfe. 

At 23" and 2400 I think we would see about 165 Mph IAS. 

-Chris

N919AR



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_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Slow to flap speed upon entering the pattern; 120 KIAS remove reflex; <100 KIAS 0-15 degrees; about 85 KIAS for flap >15 degrees. I use 65-70 KIAS 50-100% flaps on short final; 65 KIAS if two aboard; 70 KIAS if four aboard over the numbers. Easy turnoff at 2500 feet without braking; easy turnoff at 1200 feet with moderate braking. If you plan to use strips < 1000 feet, you may want to practice technique.   

   

See http://www.azcloudflyer.com/flight_test/proc_landing.jpg this website is updated by a friend who is an engineer and flew a comprehensive Phase I.  

   

--

rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:26 am Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Van's says 100 MPH is the maximum speed with full flaps, but I haven't seen any info from Van's stating that a higher airspeed is acceptable with less than full flaps.  Did I miss something?

 

 -Rob

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 

 I too assumed the numbers must be MPH.

 

 Also, the "flap speed" mentioned is only for the first two notches. Vans recommends something slower (87 KIAS as I recall) for full flaps.

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359950#359950

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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 http://forums.matronics.com

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Rob Kochman

RV-10 Flying since March 2011

 Woodinville, WA

 http://kochman.net/N819K



  [quote][b]

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

I missed it too.  I have only seen 100mph or 87knots from Vans.

     

     Having said that, my current practice is to slow it down to about     100 knots, then letting the 1st notch of flap get me down under 90     knots.

     

     Bill

     

     On 12/1/2011 1:22 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:     [quote]       Van's says 100 MPH is the maximum speed with full flaps, but         I haven't seen any info from Van's stating that a higher         airspeed is acceptable with less than full flaps.  Did I miss         something?

        

       -Rob

         

       

       On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bob         Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>         wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		             --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

           

           I too assumed the numbers must be MPH.

           

           Also, the "flap speed" mentioned is only for the first two           notches. Vans recommends something slower (87 KIAS as I           recall) for full flaps.

           

           --------

           Bob Turner

           RV-10 QB

         	
       

     [b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Yes, Vans does publish (higher) speeds for partial flap extensions. See the post about 3 up.



The numbers are in the paperwork that comes with the finish kit - same part  that talks about weight and balance.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

rv10flyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

page 21 of FINAL INSPECTION AND FLIGHT TEST

 140 Mph for Trail

 110 Mph for 1/2 flap

 100 Mph for Full flap

  

  

  

    

  From: Bill Watson (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:37 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport  Aviation

  



 I  missed it too.  I have only seen 100mph or 87knots from Vans.



Having  said that, my current practice is to slow it down to about 100 knots, then  letting the 1st notch of flap get me down under 90 knots.



Bill



On  12/1/2011 1:22 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:  [quote]   Van's says 100 MPH is the maximum speed with full flaps, but I haven't    seen any info from Van's stating that a higher airspeed is acceptable with    less than full flaps.  Did I miss something?

    

   -Rob

   On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>



I too assumed      the numbers must be MPH.



Also, the "flap speed" mentioned is only for      the first two notches. Vans recommends something slower (87 KIAS as I      recall) for full flaps.



--------

Bob Turner

RV-10    QB

	






href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

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href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

The flap speeds are in the packet that comes with the finishing kit.  I am sure someone has a scanned copy.  



I can't remember all the speeds but the -3 to 0 degree speed is 120 knots and the final flaps are 90 knots.  



20 degrees is something in between but I just slow down to 90 before adding 20 degrees.  



 

Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com



[quote]From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 1:37 PM

Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation



                     I missed it too.  I have only seen 100mph or 87knots from Vans.

     

     Having said that, my current practice is to slow it down to about     100 knots, then letting the 1st notch of flap get me down under 90     knots.

     

     Bill

     

     On 12/1/2011 1:22 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		         Van's says 100 MPH is the maximum speed with full flaps, but         I haven't seen any info from Van's stating that a higher         airspeed is acceptable with less than full flaps.  Did I miss         something?

        

       -Rob

         

       

       On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bob         Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>         wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		             --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

           

           I too assumed the numbers must be MPH.

           

           Also, the "flap speed" mentioned is only for the first two           notches. Vans recommends something slower (87 KIAS as I           recall) for full flaps.

           

           --------

           Bob Turner

           RV-10 QB

         	
       

     www.aeroelectt="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhttp========================


	




[b]

rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:51 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Wow, I missed that the first time.  Thanks, guys.  I've forgotten to raise my flaps after takeoff a few times, so hopefully I haven't damaged anything.

 

-Rob

 On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Pascal <rv10flyer(at)verizon.net (rv10flyer(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        page 21 of FINAL INSPECTION AND FLIGHT TEST

 140 Mph for Trail

 110 Mph for 1/2 flap

 100 Mph for Full flap

  

  

  

    

  From: Bill Watson (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:37 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport  Aviation

  



 I  missed it too.  I have only seen 100mph or 87knots from Vans.



Having  said that, my current practice is to slow it down to about 100 knots, then  letting the 1st notch of flap get me down under 90 knots.



Bill



On  12/1/2011 1:22 PM, Rob Kochman wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		     Van's says 100 MPH is the maximum speed with full flaps, but I haven't    seen any info from Van's stating that a higher airspeed is acceptable with    less than full flaps.  Did I miss something?

    

   -Rob

   On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 



I too assumed      the numbers must be MPH.



Also, the "flap speed" mentioned is only for      the first two notches. Vans recommends something slower (87 KIAS as I      recall) for full flaps.



--------

Bob Turner

RV-10    QB



	






href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	


    	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Rob Kochman

RV-10 Flying since March 2011

 Woodinville, WA

 http://kochman.net/N819K



  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

For some reason, I can't remember ever seeing that in my packet

that there was any restriction from -3 to 0.  I believe you

though.



The thing that boggles my mind is, why would there be any

limitation on going to zero degrees of flap.  I can't imagine

why it would matter if you are at 120 or 140 or 160 if you

are at zero...it seems that going -3 is just a way to get

speed benefit.



If someone knows that answer, I'd love an education on that.

Tim

do not archive

On 12/1/2011 3:37 PM, Scott Schmidt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The flap speeds are in the packet that comes with the finishing kit. I

 am sure someone has a scanned copy.

 I can't remember all the speeds but the -3 to 0 degree speed is 120

 knots and the final flaps are 90 knots.

 20 degrees is something in between but I just slow down to 90 before

 adding 20 degrees.

 Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Budd Davisson's RV10 article in Sport Aviation

Tim:



I don't know the answer to your question for certain, but here's my guess:



In flight the forces want to move the flaps up. I presume the force goes up as the speed goes up.  At 0 deg that force has to be held by the actuating rod. At -3 the flaps bump up against the aft spar, so the actuating rod doesn't carry that load anymore.  e.g., the limitation is to prevent over-stressing the flap actuating mechanism.



Others' guesses?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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