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Paul K Smith
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Hindmarsh Island, Sth Australia
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 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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All this talk about performance and earlier questions from
contributors about carbies leads me to pass on the fact that
a local South Australian Jabiru aircraft owner has developed
his own fuel injected Jab 3300. While he is rather coy
about the performance, it's very clear he's obtaining
significant increase in power at much lower fuel
consumptions using pretty ordinary automotive parts.
Computerised parts allow easy tuning.
He generates lots of interest wherever he flies when people
realise what's under the hood. Sounds amazing too! Clearly
not in production as it's only his personal alterations and
he obviously knows what he's doing, but it begs the question
why Jabiru themselves haven't gone down this pathway.
Maintenance simplicity and/or cost?
| Quote: | From memory I think he claims about a 15% improvement in
power with a 20% reduction in fuel consumption, but don't
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hold me to these numbers. His 3300 delivers the grunt
required with the economy of a 2200.
Thought you guys talking comparisons with others might be
interested.
Cheers, Paul Smith.
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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Can you see the look on my face?
15% more power on 20% less fuel.....but we have only his word for it.
It is generally hard to make something LESS complicated than a carb. It is easy to make a MORE complicated and more prone to fail system.
Also, if you burn 5 gal per hour with a carb, then you would burn 4 gal per hour with his system...by my math, which is a little shakey. So for the saving of 1 gal per hour (or less) someone must be willing to spend a whole lot more on something that is all ready expensive, the engine.
There is a long history of people who did not understand that air-cooled engines are also fuel-cooled. They were rewarded with early engine failures and the transfer of good metal into scrap.
I do understand that by controlling certain aspects of fuel flow greater economies can be achieved IN WATER COOLED ENGINES. I dont know of any production autos that still use a true carb. I just think the application to aircraft engines is an uphill fight with questionable returns.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 1/21/2008 8:00:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, stay(at)caithness.com.au writes:
| Quote: | All this talk about performance and earlier questions from
contributors about carbies leads me to pass on the fact that
a local South Australian Jabiru aircraft owner has developed
his own fuel injected Jab 3300. While he is rather coy
about the performance, it's very clear he's obtaining
significant increase in power at much lower fuel
consumptions using pretty ordinary automotive parts.
Computerised parts allow easy tuning.
He generates lots of interest wherever he flies when people
realise what's under the hood. Sounds amazing too! Clearly
not in production as it's only his personal alterations and
he obviously knows what he's doing, but it begs the question
why Jabiru themselves haven't gone down this pathway.
Maintenance simplicity and/or cost?
| Quote: | From memory I think he claims about a 15% improvement in
power with a 20% reduction in fuel consumption, but don't
|
hold me to these numbers. His 3300 delivers the grunt
required with the economy of a 2200.
Thought you guys talking comparisons with others might be
interested.
Cheers, Paul Smith.
|
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]
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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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I did talk to the Jabiru factory in Australia about a defense company who modified the Jabiru 3300 with twin turbos and electronic fuel injection. They claimed 200hp output in this configuration. The factory guys didn't know of the project, but said it was certainly attainable with those modifications. Again though, he said they keep expense down, maintenance down, and another biggie was keeping weight down. Still, an interesting thought of a 200hp aircraft engine weighing in around 200 lbs! If you could ever make it reliable enough it'd definately be a Lycoming and Continental challenger. Brian W.
| Quote: |
From: Kayberg(at)aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:01:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Can you see the look on my face?
15% more power on 20% less fuel.....but we have only his word for it.
It is generally hard to make something LESS complicated than a carb. It is easy to make a MORE complicated and more prone to fail system.
Also, if you burn 5 gal per hour with a carb, then you would burn 4 gal per hour with his system...by my math, which is a little shakey. So for the saving of 1 gal per hour (or less) someone must be willing to spend a whole lot more on something that is all ready expensive, the engine.
There is a long history of people who did not understand that air-cooled engines are also fuel-cooled. They were rewarded with early engine failures and the transfer of good metal into scrap.
I do understand that by controlling certain aspects of fuel flow greater economies can be achieved IN WATER COOLED ENGINES. I dont know of any production autos that still use a true carb. I just think the application to aircraft engines is an uphill fight with questionable returns.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 1/21/2008 8:00:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, stay(at)caithness.com.au writes:
| Quote: | All this talk about performance and earlier questions from
contributors about carbies leads me to pass on the fact that
a local South Australian Jabiru aircraft owner has developed
his own fuel injected Jab 3300. While he is rather coy
about the performance, it's very clear he's obtaining
significant increase in power at much lower fuel
consumptions using pretty ordinary automotive parts.
Computerised parts allow easy tuning.
He generates lots of interest wherever he flies when people
realise what's under the hood. Sounds amazing too! Clearly
not in production as it's only his personal alterations and
he obviously knows what he's doing, but it begs the question
why Jabiru themselves haven't gone down this pathway.
Maintenance simplicity and/or cost?
| Quote: | From memory I think he claims about a 15% improvement in
power with a 20% reduction in fuel consumption, but don't
|
hold me to these numbers. His 3300 delivers the grunt
required with the economy of a 2200.
Thought you guys talking comparisons with others might be
interested.
Cheers, Paul Smith.
|
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
| Quote: |
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more. [quote][b]
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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In a message dated 1/21/2008 9:33:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: |
I did talk to the Jabiru factory in Australia about a defense company who modified the Jabiru 3300 with twin turbos and electronic fuel injection. They claimed 200hp output in this configuration. The factory guys didn't know of the project, but said it was certainly attainable with those modifications. Again though, he said they keep expense down, maintenance down, and another biggie was keeping weight down. Still, an interesting thought of a 200hp aircraft engine weighing in around 200 lbs! If you could ever make it reliable enough it'd definately be a Lycoming and Continental challenger. Brian W.
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I can understand getting 200 hp out of the engine with turbocharging, fuel injection and running rich. I would just note that the 3300 requires attention to cooling airflow at 120 hp. I would think that nearly doubling the horsepower would quadruple the cooling problems. I would expect them to use liquid cooled heads, much like VW conversions of high hp.
Again, any fool can make simple designs complex. It makes more sense to increase the engine overall size if you want 200 hp. If you have ever lifted Lycon parts, you cant help but think there is a lighter way to do this.
Dk
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]
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14az(at)mysprocketmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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About 15 years ago I installed a home made injection system using Ford and other manufacture parts onto a VW Revemaster years ago. I also installed a modified automotive electronic ignition. It did make the engine more responsive, better fuel economy (did not ever check actual rate on this model since I was 3.5 GPH) and short takeoffs.. I liked it. Now, would I do it again, probably not. Reasons are reliability, complicated, not nearly as airworthy as the carb was, cost was high. The system is still in the aircraft today. I am often called by the new owner to troubleshoot the system once a year. I provided the new owner with a throttle body to replace the system as too much can go wrong without knowledgeable preventive maintenance.
Like any electronic ignition and fuel ejection system on certified aircraft it performs better and will use less fuel. My main problem was the aircraft electrical system could not keep up with the electrical requirements. I had dual electric pumps to provide the higher fuel pressure. If I lost electrical power I became a glider (never happened). I did install a backup battery that would work for about 30 minutes. With what is available today it can be a lot safer. This is why we call it experimental.
Enjoy Johnny Thompson N8WN
[quote][b]
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malannx(at)bigpond.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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Now the Lightning list is at last starting to venture out from the "you have
got a fantastic paint scheme" into the sort of discussion that may result in
someone moving up to the next level of performance.
Being an old rev head from way back I just love it when turbo charging, fuel
injection, super charging come up. But I have to agree with Doug's general
thrust. Its fantastic to look at on some else's plane and chew the fat over
but I don't want electronic fuel injection on mine if I'm taking the wife
for a trip at the weekend. I got a bad enough roasting when I ran 1 tank dry
before changing tanks, without informing the Boss. I just hate to think of
the response if we had several minutes of silence. Actually I would not be
in trouble till we got onto the ground, then I would have to turn off my
hearing aids.
FADEC as used on the Lycoming will become a way of life ultimately but it
costs big bickies due to the development costs. Just think about the
software required to decide is a sensor reading hot or has it failed out of
speck. Do "I"(the ECU) cut back the fuel to that cylinder or not. The MAP
sensor is reading low. Is the sensor faulty or not. I have had an ECU
failure. Do I relinquish control to the backup one if there is one or do I
go into the limp home mode.(on take off?)
In Europe a Diamond twin with thielert diesels took of with flat batteries
after a jump start. Retraction of the undercarriage and flaps dropped the
voltage enough that the ECU's shut down both engines after takeoff. Diamond
says it is Thielerts fault and vice versa.
You can see why fuel injection on a Lycosaurus is mechanical.
Turbo charging is another matter. It does not have the problem of having
multiple failure points requiring multiple redundant systems. Again why it
has found its way onto mainstream aero engines. Apart from plumbing issues
heat dissipation is the biggest problem. Ask yourself does my engine run on
the cool side or not. Very few engines do. So some re-design is necessary.
Also has the advantage of maintaining full power to high altitude, although
cooling really becomes a problem at reduced air densities. Turbo charging
can be a real benefit as the speed increases by about 1.6%/1000ft for a
given horsepower. So at FL150 your TAS can be 25% higher for the same
horsepower.
Interestingly some of your(US) military high altitude drones use a triple
stage turbo charged Rotax 914's and can reach above 80,000 feet with a prop
drive. I think I have seen that they are pensioned off after as little as
200-400 hours. Rotax have been fiddling with fuel injection for several
years but has not released it.
Ultimately the easiest speed increase comes from the airframe refinements.eg
Zodiac/Lightning
Even a 20% increase in hp does not give a big increase in speed. Look at
Darryl Greenmeyer's Lancair.It is twin turbo, methanol and water injection
reputed to be turning out around 700hp and 400mph- a little over twice
Buzz's Esqual top speed on 125 hp.
Keep the pressure on Arion for refinements.
Wow I hate it when I get on an interesting topic.
Malcolm Ferguson
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Paul K Smith
Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Hindmarsh Island, Sth Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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Posting Helmut's very interesting email on his fuel injected
3300 Jabiru, which, by the way, is not the person nor the
aircraft which was the basis for my original posting on the
topic. Thanks Helmut for your extra evidence and extensive
experience. I hadn't heard of you or your aircraft before
now but the reliability figures you quote and your technical
credibility adds lots of bite to the debate!!!
Cheers all,
Paul Smith.
[quote] Hi Paul Smith,
the reason I am sending you this email because for some
reason the Lightning list is rejecting my post which was a
reply to your post and the replies that followed. I get
the posts but am not able to reply. Could you please get
my post into the system as I am still trying to get my
subscription problems sorted out.
Thanks in advance Helmut Frensch
---
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georgeperry
Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Posts: 2
Location: WESTPAC (Navy)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
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Is a fuel injected retrofit kit for the 3300 coming soon to USA customers like the one they are developing in Gaborone, Botswana?
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=82492
Thanks
George
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George Perry
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