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Seat question

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: Seat question

I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in 

gold now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining.  

However, I still labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation.  I 

had read about how the stops could be modified for easy removal but I 

forgot about that and instead returned to the idea of nut plates on the 

T-handles.



However, I ended up doing something slightly different.  I used nutserts 

in the T-handle.



The only concern I observed after I did the first one is that nutsert 

are not finished flush on the inserted face.  It would work this way but 

there would be a roughly 1/64" space between the T-handler and the seat 

frame.



Turns out that if  you install them 'backwards', they leave a flush fit 

for the T-handle to mate with the seat frame.  It also leaves a nicely 

finished face on the outside edge... not that one ever really sees that 

edge.



Now the T-handles can be removed and re-installed with a single powered 

screwdriver using a single hand.  That combined with the rail 

modification (trim the plastic, not the aluminum) makes the whole 

operation much easier than stock.



BTW, this was all done during the process of installing the PlaneAround 

90degree retrofit door latch.  Not only do I feel safer, but this 

product fixed my entire door installation that includes the IFLYRV10 

flush billet door handles and lock. There was excessive friction in the 

setup and I never could completely latch the doors from the outside.  

Now it all works!



Up to now, my RV10 passenger safety briefing consisted of "This is a 

fantastic airplane, nothing to worry about but under no circumstances 

are you to touch the doors - I open and close all doors at all times".  

Now I can say, " remember this isn't car and it's not a car door  so no 

slamming, just pull it down and close the latch, Thank You"



Bill "Door Victory at Last - but I need to refinish the )(*&$#(at)$(at)#*^ 

things again" Watson

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:54 pm Post subject: Seat question

On 22.10.2015 03:50, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in

 gold now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining.

 However, I still labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation.  I

 had read about how the stops could be modified for easy removal but I

 forgot about that and instead returned to the idea of nut plates on the

 T-handles.



Bill,
	




do you have some pictures of that modification?



Thanks Werner

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:38 am Post subject: Seat question

On 10/21/2015 9:50 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in 

 gold now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining.  

 However, I still labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation.  

 I had read about how the stops could be modified for easy removal but 

 I forgot about that and instead returned to the idea of nut plates on 

 the T-handles.



 However, I ended up doing something slightly different.  I used 

 nutserts in the T-handle.

I drilled and tapped the T-handles.
	


Linn

rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:29 am Post subject: Seat question

Any pictures of your seat modifications please Bill?



Warm regards



Patrick



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 22 Oct 2015, at 12:20, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in gold now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining.  However, I still labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation.  I had read about how the stops could be modified for easy removal but I forgot about that and instead returned to the idea of nut plates on the T-handles.

 

 However, I ended up doing something slightly different.  I used nutserts in the T-handle.

 

 The only concern I observed after I did the first one is that nutsert are not finished flush on the inserted face.  It would work this way but there would be a roughly 1/64" space between the T-handler and the seat frame.

 

 Turns out that if  you install them 'backwards', they leave a flush fit for the T-handle to mate with the seat frame.  It also leaves a nicely finished face on the outside edge... not that one ever really sees that edge.

 

 Now the T-handles can be removed and re-installed with a single powered screwdriver using a single hand.  That combined with the rail modification (trim the plastic, not the aluminum) makes the whole operation much easier than stock.

 

 BTW, this was all done during the process of installing the PlaneAround 90degree retrofit door latch.  Not only do I feel safer, but this product fixed my entire door installation that includes the IFLYRV10 flush billet door handles and lock. There was excessive friction in the setup and I never could completely latch the doors from the outside.  Now it all works!

 

 Up to now, my RV10 passenger safety briefing consisted of "This is a fantastic airplane, nothing to worry about but under no circumstances are you to touch the doors - I open and close all doors at all times".  Now I can say, " remember this isn't car and it's not a car door  so no slamming, just pull it down and close the latch, Thank You"

 

 Bill "Door Victory at Last - but I need to refinish the )(*&$#(at)$(at)#*^ things again" Watson

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: Seat question

Here is a photo and description of the       T-handle mod My         Kitlog - T-Handle Seat Mod

       

       I don't have any photos of the rail mod which I did a few years       ago per postings here or on Vans Airforce.  Some have ground away       part of the aluminum rail.  The alternative I took was to cut out       part of the front of the plastic runners.  A little bit of       aluminum may have to be removed as well but I don't think so.        Sorry I don't exactly recall.  In either case, it allow the seat       to slide out without have to touch the flap actuation cover... or       the carpet that it may be covered with

       

       It's all back together now but if I can take a meaningful pic, I       will.

       

       Bill "Finally happy with seat removal and installation but it's       still a back breaker" Watson

       

       

       On 10/22/2015 8:25 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au> (rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au)



Any pictures of your seat modifications please Bill?



Warm regards



Patrick



          	  Quote: 	
		  On 22 Oct 2015, at 12:20, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com) wrote:



--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)



I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in gold now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining.  However, I still labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation.  I had read about how the stops could be modified for easy removal but I forgot about that and instead returned to the idea of nut plates on the T-handles.



However, I ended up doing something slightly different.  I used nutserts in the T-handle.



The only concern I observed after I did the first one is that nutsert are not finished flush on the inserted face.  It would work this way but there would be a roughly 1/64" space between the T-handler and the seat frame.



Turns out that if  you install them 'backwards', they leave a flush fit for the T-handle to mate with the seat frame.  It also leaves a nicely finished face on the outside edge... not that one ever really sees that edge.



Now the T-handles can be removed and re-installed with a single powered screwdriver using a single hand.  That combined with the rail modification (trim the plastic, not the aluminum) makes the whole operation much easier than stock.



BTW, this was all done during the process of installing the PlaneAround 90degree retrofit door latch.  Not only do I feel safer, but this product fixed my entire door installation that includes the IFLYRV10 flush billet door handles and lock. There was excessive friction in the setup and I never could completely latch the doors from the outside.  Now it all works!



Up to now, my RV10 passenger safety briefing consisted of "This is a fantastic airplane, nothing to worry about but under no circumstances are you to touch the doors - I open and close all doors at all times".  Now I can say, " remember this isn't car and it's not a car door  so no slamming, just pull it down and close the latch, Thank You"



Bill "Door Victory at Last - but I need to refinish the )(*&$#(at)$(at)#*^ things again" Watson

	
       

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

	
     [b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:00 am Post subject: Seat question

Hey Bill,

Regarding the Nutserts, is there any worry about the nutserts

pulling through the hole? It seems to me that if they slid

out, the whole thing falls apart, and they wouldn't be as strong

as having something on the outer face to hold that bolt that

can't pull through.  But I haven't installed any in years.

The ones I did were aluminum and didn't seem ultra strong.

Also, if they are aluminum, then maybe just going up a size in

bolt would work, and drill and tap the holes in the T-Handle

bracket?  A risky proposition for cost if it gets messed

up, is the bigger worry.  Plus the threads would eventually

wear a lot after many removals.   I think ideally, someone

would make a nutsert with integral external hex flange/locknut.

That would take care of all worries.

Tim



On 10/22/2015 12:29 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Here is a photo and description of the T-handle mod My Kitlog - T-Handle

 Seat Mod

 <http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=mauledriver&project=224&category=7984&log=216267&row=1>



 I don't have any photos of the rail mod which I did a few years ago per

 postings here or on Vans Airforce.  Some have ground away part of the

 aluminum rail.  The alternative I took was to cut out part of the front

 of the plastic runners.  A little bit of aluminum may have to be removed

 as well but I don't think so. Sorry I don't exactly recall.  In either

 case, it allow the seat to slide out without have to touch the flap

 actuation cover... or the carpet that it may be covered with



 It's all back together now but if I can take a meaningful pic, I will.



 Bill "Finally happy with seat removal and installation but it's still a

 back breaker" Watson

schmoboy

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 130

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: Seat question

Note that if you do the mod to make the rear rail stop removable, i.e. 

nutplates for it's attach bolts, then there's no reason to ever have to 

remove the t-handles.



I did that mod plus the removal of the front portion of the of the 

delrin (or whatever it is) under the slide.  Seats come out in a couple 

minutes.



-Sean #40303 (trying to figure out why XM weather quit receiving)



 	  Quote: 	
		   Tim Olson <mailto:Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 October 22, 2015 at 1:55 PM

 



 Hey Bill,

 Regarding the Nutserts, is there any worry about the nutserts

 pulling through the hole? It seems to me that if they slid

 out, the whole thing falls apart, and they wouldn't be as strong

 as having something on the outer face to hold that bolt that

 can't pull through.  But I haven't installed any in years.

 The ones I did were aluminum and didn't seem ultra strong.

 Also, if they are aluminum, then maybe just going up a size in

 bolt would work, and drill and tap the holes in the T-Handle

 bracket?  A risky proposition for cost if it gets messed

 up, is the bigger worry.  Plus the threads would eventually

 wear a lot after many removals.   I think ideally, someone

 would make a nutsert with integral external hex flange/locknut.

 That would take care of all worries.

 Tim

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Seat question

Since the load is nearly all shear, I would think this is okay if you only torque the bolts to the lower, shear load spec; this is unlikely to pull the insert thru.  I note that you have to go to a shorter length bolt (or washers under the bolt head) so that the threaded area now carries part or maybe all of the shear load, instead of 100% on the shank as in the original design. Again, not quite as strong as the original design. I think you should try to get at least some of the shank into the hole in the latch piece. In a typical crash (moving forward) the seat belt will carry the imposed loads, so the latch is really not that important. Unless you spin around 180 degres and then suddenly stop. I have no idea if even the original design can carry your weight plus the seat times 10(?)(g).

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

EdKranz

Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Hastings, MN

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: Seat question

This is what I did. Seat out in about 2 minutes. Just need a socket on an extension to get to the bolts between the sidewall and the seat. Works great!



On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com (sean(at)stephensville.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com (sean(at)stephensville.com)>

 

 Note that if you do the mod to make the rear rail stop removable, i.e. nutplates for it's attach bolts, then there's no reason to ever have to remove the t-handles.

 

 I did that mod plus the removal of the front portion of the of the delrin (or whatever it is) under the slide.Â  Seats come out in a couple minutes.

 

 -Sean #40303 (trying to figure out why XM weather quit receiving)

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

_________________
Ed Kranz
RV10
Finishing
www.edandcolleen.com

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:50 am Post subject: Seat question

The load being in shear was my thinking.  Given that, getting a flush 

fit between the seat rail and T-pin, and being able to torque the bolts 

to spec is the main (perhaps only) concern relative to an traumatic 

event.  This approach satisfies both needs.



The trick to getting the flush fit however is putting the Nutserts in 

'backward' which allows a flush fit between the seat rail and T-pin 

assembly.  On one hand, the compressed Nutsert is now just pressed into 

it's hole rather than have an expanded portion on the backside of a 

thinner piece of material.  On the other hand the lip of the Nutsert is 

now resisting the pull of the bolt.



The solution involving nutplating the stop block seems ideal and it's 

what I would have done in the initial build.  It's taken me years to 

tire of seat removal so slowly I've 1) trimmed the Delrin rail and 2) 

finally Nutserted the bolts.



I thought about drilling out for tapping an AN4 bolt or something but 

didn't get to the point of thinking that approach through. Doing what I 

did is low risk - I can still put a long bolt, washer and nut on  it if 

I want (?!!), not.



I may have the threaded portion of the bolt going thru the joint but I 

may be able to remedy that with the right length bolt and/or washers.  

There's a nice gap between the joint face and where the threads start on 

the Nutsert.



On 10/22/2015 5:15 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Since the load is nearly all shear, I would think this is okay if you only torque the bolts to the lower, shear load spec; this is unlikely to pull the insert thru. But if it does happen, eventually the bolt threads will bottom out and the bolt will have no pre-load. I note that you have to go to a shorter length bolt (or washers under the bolt head) so that the threaded area now carries part of the shear load, instead of 100% on the shank as in the original design. Again, not quite as strong as the original design. I think you should try to get at least some of the shank into the hole in the latch piece. In a typical crash (moving forward) the seat belt will carry the imposed loads, so the latch is really not that important. Unless you spin around 180 degres and then suddenly stop. I have no idea if even the original design can carry your weight plus the seat times 10(?)(g).



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448198#448198





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