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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:42 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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There are four 601's in my area. When we were doing the "B" mods three of us went to push rods on the ailerons. Also one friend added 4" to the top of the stick on the pilots side. This helped on aileron pressure. He likes it, I don't care for it. Another friend changed the ratio of the bell cranks which gave more stick movement per travel on the ailerons. This I liked but not enough to take my plane out of service long enough to make the change ( probably only a couple of days ). Most pilots I take for rides adapt to the sensitive pitch in just a few minutes. These planes are experimental AMATEUR built. If you are professional enough to make safe changes it is your responsibility, if not check with the designer or stick to the plans.
Bobby
601 XL B
3300 Jabiru
143 hrs and logging
[quote][b]
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andrewtub
Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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Bobby,
Im very close to being done with my b mods and will be looking at other "upgrades" while I have it in the shop. I do not like the fact that you are required to check the Aile cable tension before each flight. You mentioned the three XL's that went to the push rod setup. Can you point me in the right direction as far as the materials I need to order?
Also, just in case you did not see it, Zenith will be releasing a modification in the 650 prints that will better balance the controls.
Thanks,
Andrew
From: "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:41 AM
Subject: Control Balance
#yiv1791159361 p {margin:0;} List
There are four 601's in my area. When we were doing the "B" mods three of us went to push rods on the ailerons. Also one friend added 4" to the top of the stick on the pilots side. This helped on aileron pressure. He likes it, I don't care for it. Another friend changed the ratio of the bell cranks which gave more stick movement per travel on the ailerons. This I liked but not enough to take my plane out of service long enough to make the change ( probably only a couple of days ). Most pilots I take for rides adapt to the sensitive pitch in just a few minutes. These planes are experimental AMATEUR built. If you are professional enough to make safe changes it is your responsibility, if not check with the designer or stick to the plans.
Bobby
601 XL B
3300 Jabiru
143 hrs and logging
[quote]
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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Andrew,
I wouldn't lose sleep checking the aileron cable tension for each flight - especially after installing the upgrade. I do check for play in the actual aileron movement when I do my preflight inspection, but so far I have not found anything suggesting the cables become lose with time.
I am afraid the whole aileron cable tension story was a figment of someone's imagination to explain the structure failures rather than a design problem.
Paul
Camas, WA
XL in phase 1 flight test.
On 2/25/2012 6:55 AM, Andrew Tuberville wrote: [quote] Bobby,
Im very close to being done with my b mods and will be looking at other "upgrades" while I have it in the shop. I do not like the fact that you are required to check the Aile cable tension before each flight. You mentioned the three XL's that went to the push rod setup. Can you point me in the right direction as far as the materials I need to order?
Also, just in case you did not see it, Zenith will be releasing a modification in the 650 prints that will better balance the controls.
Thanks,
Andrew
From: "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:41 AM
Subject: Control Balance
#yiv1791159361 p {margin:0;} List
There are four 601's in my area. When we were doing the "B" mods three of us went to push rods on the ailerons. Also one friend added 4" to the top of the stick on the pilots side. This helped on aileron pressure. He likes it, I don't care for it. Another friend changed the ratio of the bell cranks which gave more stick movement per travel on the ailerons. This I liked but not enough to take my plane out of service long enough to make the change ( probably only a couple of days ). Most pilots I take for rides adapt to the sensitive pitch in just a few minutes. These planes are experimental AMATEUR built. If you are professional enough to make safe changes it is your responsibility, if not check with the designer or stick to the plans.
Bobby
601 XL B
3300 Jabiru
143 hrs and logging
[b]
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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Paul said
"I am afraid the whole aileron cable tension story was a figment of someone's imagination to explain the structure failures rather than a design problem."
With all due respect how can you say that?
After nearly the entire fleet having done the upgrade and not 1 single report of any structural problems found after opening up the wing and the NTSB conclusion of flutter you are still of the opinion that cable tension and unbalanced ailerons weren't the culprit? I would be intrigued to hear your explanation of how the plane just tears apart in the air without a catastrophic event leading up to it.
Jeff
In a message dated 2/25/2012 11:10:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm(at)att.net writes:
| Quote: | Andrew,
I wouldn't lose sleep checking the aileron cable tension for each flight - especially after installing the upgrade. I do check for play in the actual aileron movement when I do my preflight inspection, but so far I have not found anything suggesting the cables become lose with time.
I am afraid the whole aileron cable tension story was a figment of someone's imagination to explain the structure failures rather than a design problem.
Paul
Camas, WA
XL in phase 1 flight test.
On 2/25/2012 6:55 AM, Andrew Tuberville wrote: | Quote: | Bobby,
Im very close to being done with my b mods and will be looking at other "upgrades" while I have it in the shop. I do not like the fact that you are required to check the Aile cable tension before each flight. You mentioned the three XL's that went to the push rod setup. Can you point me in the right direction as far as the materials I need to order?
Also, just in case you did not see it, Zenith will be releasing a modification in the 650 prints that will better balance the controls.
Thanks,
Andrew
From: "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:41 AM
Subject: Control Balance
#yiv1791159361 p {margin:0;} List
There are four 601's in my area. When we were doing the "B" mods three of us went to push rods on the ailerons. Also one friend added 4" to the top of the stick on the pilots side. This helped on aileron pressure. He likes it, I don't care for it. Another friend changed the ratio of the bell cranks which gave more stick movement per travel on the ailerons. This I liked but not enough to take my plane out of service long enough to make the change ( probably only a couple of days ). Most pilots I take for rides adapt to the sensitive pitch in just a few minutes. These planes are experimental AMATEUR built. If you are professional enough to make safe changes it is your responsibility, if not check with the designer or stick to the plans.
Bobby
601 XL B
3300 Jabiru
143 hrs and logging
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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Jeff,
I'm truly sorry I mentioned my opinion on this subject in a public forum. I know there are a lot of people who believe, on a religious level, that the original design was just fine. I don't.
The standard you suggested of finding damage inside wings is just not the right one to determine whether or not there was a design problem. Your notion depends on the idea that slow deterioration was behind the structure failures. I think the failures were instantaneous peak loads that caused the spars to fail. There would be no warning signs in wings that didn't reach the critical peak load.
My own trip down the design failure path started when I was assembling my fuselage. I noticed that the main landing gear uprights were attached to the upper longerons but the wing attach uprights were not. This looked like a design oversight to me. I contacted the factory and asked about adding gussets to this area. They approved the change but did not comment on whether or not it was needed. You should keep in mind that by this time the alleged designer of the XL had already retired to France but there were no (or only a few) failures that had taken place.
After the NTSB recommended grounding the XL fleet the FAA guys who approve part 23 designs went over the XL design and found it lacking. They got Zenair/Zenith/AMD to develop a design upgrade in the background while the FAA public position was not announced. When the next plane fell apart (long after the letter from C.H. suggesting aileron cable tensions were to be watched) the already completed design change was released by AMD and the FAA demanded all planes should install the change before being flown again. By that time the part 23 review engineers at the FAA had already reviewed the upgrade and found it was sufficient to make the XL design sound. The only part of this story that leaves me wondering is the fact that another XL owner/operator had to die to get these bureaucrats to "Come out" and demand the change be installed in all the XLs.
Oops, I left out one other part of this story that leaves me wondering. The FAA guys released a 40 page document which they thought spelled out what I said above. Alas, their language was so far from normal people's usage it seems nobody but them and a few aviation engineers understood that was their conclusion. Put differently, they thought the whole world knew the design was bad long before the design changes were made available to fleet owners.
The real way to evaluate the design upgrade, in my opinion, is to look at the accident records for upgraded airframes and compare it to ones without the upgrade. So far that is easy to do. None of the upgraded planes have suffered structure failures. We don't know how many upgraded planes are flying now, but I'm sure there are a bunch.
I hope that clears up at least my opinion on the whole design flaw and upgrade issue. Perhaps anyone who wants to discuss details of this issue would write to me privately so we don't have to hold the discussion in the public forum.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 2/25/2012 8:47 AM, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote] Paul said
"I am afraid the whole aileron cable tension story was a figment of someone's imagination to explain the structure failures rather than a design problem."
With all due respect how can you say that?
After nearly the entire fleet having done the upgrade and not 1 single report of any structural problems found after opening up the wing and the NTSB conclusion of flutter you are still of the opinion that cable tension and unbalanced ailerons weren't the culprit? I would be intrigued to hear your explanation of how the plane just tears apart in the air without a catastrophic event leading up to it.
Jeff
In a message dated 2/25/2012 11:10:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:
| Quote: | Andrew,
I wouldn't lose sleep checking the aileron cable tension for each flight - especially after installing the upgrade. I do check for play in the actual aileron movement when I do my preflight inspection, but so far I have not found anything suggesting the cables become lose with time.
I am afraid the whole aileron cable tension story was a figment of someone's imagination to explain the structure failures rather than a design problem.
Paul
Camas, WA
XL in phase 1 flight test.
On 2/25/2012 6:55 AM, Andrew Tuberville wrote: | Quote: | Bobby,
Im very close to being done with my b mods and will be looking at other "upgrades" while I have it in the shop. I do not like the fact that you are required to check the Aile cable tension before each flight. You mentioned the three XL's that went to the push rod setup. Can you point me in the right direction as far as the materials I need to order?
Also, just in case you did not see it, Zenith will be releasing a modification in the 650 prints that will better balance the controls.
Thanks,
Andrew
From: "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net) <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> (BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:41 AM
Subject: Control Balance
#yiv1791159361 p {margin:0;} List
There are four 601's in my area. When we were doing the "B" mods three of us went to push rods on the ailerons. Also one friend added 4" to the top of the stick on the pilots side. This helped on aileron pressure. He likes it, I don't care for it. Another friend changed the ratio of the bell cranks which gave more stick movement per travel on the ailerons. This I liked but not enough to take my plane out of service long enough to make the change ( probably only a couple of days ). Most pilots I take for rides adapt to the sensitive pitch in just a few minutes. These planes are experimental AMATEUR built. If you are professional enough to make safe changes it is your responsibility, if not check with the designer or stick to the plans.
Bobby
601 XL B
3300 Jabiru
143 hrs and logging
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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andrewtub
Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Control Balance |
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All,
Zenith has addressed the control balance issue and has released a new version of the aileron bellcrank on print 6-w-10, release date Feb 6, 2012.
Andrew
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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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Hello, Andrew
Would you know if the drawing is on-line?
Carlos Sa
CH601-HD, plans
On 6 March 2012 08:48, andrewtub <andrewtub(at)yahoo.com (andrewtub(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "andrewtub" <andrewtub(at)yahoo.com (andrewtub(at)yahoo.com)>
All,
Zenith has addressed the control balance issue and has released a new version of the aileron bellcrank on print 6-w-10, release date Feb 6, 2012.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367843#367843
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:36 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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I didn't see anything on Zenith.aero, and didn't see anything on the Zenith web site.
Do you have a link or reference where this can be found?
I'm at the point where I need to install this piece, so if it's available I need to get it ordered.
Ron
On Mar 6, 2012, at 8:48 AM, andrewtub wrote:
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andrewtub
Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Control Balance |
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I would post the print but I think it would be better if you request it from Zenith.
Andrew
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Control Balance |
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This is from the zenith builder area, it's the details of the change.
6‐W‐10 date Feb 6, 2012
Location of Aileron stops 6W10‐4 change 130 to 150
6W10‐1 Rev 1 Changed 85 to 48 (distance from pivot to aileron rod end bolt; to decrease aileron stick forces)
Adjusted the shape of the horn (no lightening hole).
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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ |
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: Control Balance |
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Ron
After 30 minutes perusing the Zenith Builder Area, I cannot find the
info you posted. Can you post a link to the page where you found that
information? Thanks
Terry
Ron Lendon wrote:
| Quote: | This is from the zenith builder area, it's the details of the change.
6‐W‐10 dateFeb 6, 2012
Location of Aileron stops 6W10‐4 change 130 to 150
6W10‐1 Rev 1 Changed 85 to 48 (distance from pivot to aileron rod end bolt; to decrease aileron stick forces)
Adjusted the shape of the horn (no lightening hole).
|
--
Terry Phillips
ttp444~at~gmail.com
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XLB/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps
are done;
Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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DaveG601XL
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: Re: Control Balance |
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Terry,
I see what Ron is talking about in this file on page 3:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/data/650-update-3rd-edition-2-12.pdf
That document was found here:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-up-drawings.html
I guess this probably can decrease the aileron forces, but that does not bother me much. I do not see anything in these updates relating to light elevator forces which is something I would rather see changed. So far I have no plans to incorporate any of these 2012 updates into my already built XL.
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David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area |
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: Control Balance |
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Thanks very much, Dave
For the life of me, I cannot see how one gets from the xl-up-drawings
page to the update pdf. I guess I'm not nearly as good at navigating the
Zenithair site as I thought I was.
Scratch building a new control horn should not be difficult. It's just a
case of deciding whether it is worth the bother. I'm kind of thinking
that it might be worth doing since I wouldn't have to do anything except
fab the new control horns..
My thanks to Ron for pointing out this change and to you for the
document link.
Terry
DaveG601XL wrote:
--
Terry Phillips
ttp444~at~gmail.com
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XLB/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps
are done;
Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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sabrina
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Control Balance |
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Do Not Archive
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Last edited by sabrina on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 am; edited 2 times in total |
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: Control Balance |
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Congratulations, Sabrina.
Would you believe I don't have any clue what "Quantum computing" means.
(And, I used to think there was nothing about computers you could fool
me with . . .)
Paul
On 3/11/2012 9:45 PM, Sabrina wrote:
| Quote: |
One thing to consider before adopting the new aileron bellcrank configuration is whether you have dual sticks or not.
May of us with dual sticks have their electrical cables and brake lines running snug against each inside corner of the front cover of the center counsel--there is no room for the additional deflection of the H.T. bellcrank required by the new aileron bellcrank. (6-DS-1)
Also, those of us who have placed the lower elevator turnbuckle at the top of the H.T. bellcrank may have a clearance problem be it center stick or dual.
Paul, check out this update: http://sabrinaaerospace.com/index.php?news&nid=42
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368217#368217
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malcolmhunt(at)mha1.fsbus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: Control Balance |
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Hi All
Thanks for rooting this one out David.
Reference to Drawing 6-W-7. Can anyone let me know the lengths of the I/B
and O/B rear channels 6W7-1 and also the size and rivet pitch and size of
rivets in the rear doubler 6W11-19.
Many thanks in advance
Malcolm Hunt
Plans Builder in England
--
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