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DaveG601XL
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
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 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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Guys,
I changed my mind. A few weeks back there was the thread about the new aileron bellcrank introduced by Zenith for the 601XL/650. The intent was to better balance heavy aileron forces with the much lighter elevator forces. If you recall, I stated that I decided not to incorporate the change in my 601XL. At Sun-N-Fun I spoke to Caleb about the control stick forces in general by the end of our discussion, I decided I would try the new bellcrank. I could have made the new part myself, but I decided to be lazy and I bought them from Zenith (P/N 6W10-1/1). The new bellcrank has a shorter distance from the pivot point to the aileron push rod.
The replacement took me about two hours and a few drops of blood. Working up in the access hole was a pain, but the job was not too difficult. When I completed the swap, I did not even have to re-size the length of the push rod to the aileron.
After securing everything and ensuring control system continuity, I went up for a short flight. I was quite pleased with the new aileron response. All I wanted to do was rock the wings because it is so much easier to move the ailerons. Based on my experience, I now endorse the new bellcrank. Here are a few pictures:
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David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area |
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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David,
Do you have hinged or hinge-less ailerons?
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XLP Plans
Miami Florida
http://sites.google.com/site/billplane/
From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 8:22 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Control Balance (Cont.)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com (david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com)>
Guys,
I changed my mind. A few weeks back there was the thread about the new aileron bellcrank introduced by Zenith for the 601XL/650. The intent was to better balance heavy aileron forces with the much lighter elevator forces. If you recall, I stated that I decided not to incorporate the change in my 601XL. At Sun-N-Fun I spoke to Caleb about the control stick forces in general by the end of our discussion, I decided I would try the new bellcrank. I could have made the new part myself, but I decided to be lazy and I bought them from Zenith (P/N 6W10-1/1). The new bellcrank has a shorter distance from the pivot point to the aileron push rod.
The replacement took me about two hours and a few drops of blood. Working up in the access hole was a pain, but the job was not too difficult. When I completed the swap, I did not even have to re-size the length of the push rod to the aileron.
After securing everything and ensuring control system continuity, I went up for a short flight. I was quite pleased with the new aileron response. All I wanted to do was rock the wings because it is so much easier to move the ailerons. Based on my experience, I now endorse the new bellcrank. Here are a few pictures:
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now
Next project under construction: Aircamper
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370255#370255
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_bellcrank_02_179.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aileron_bellcrank_01_279.jpg
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William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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DaveG601XL
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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William,
Thanks for pointing out my omission. I have the flex, or hingeless ailerons. This is the worse case that would benefit the most from the new bellcrank.
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David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area |
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steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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Good Morning guys...
It has been a long time since I have flown left seat in a 601 product but I
have many hours right seat in a HDS. In the 601HDS the aileron (hingeless)
control is incredibly responsive. Almost too sensitive. I can't imagine a
need to make it more responsive. I am currently building a 650 and will be
starting the wings soon. Does the 601XL/650 have different characteristics
in this respect? I know ZAC changed things up some but having already an HDS
myself I don't see anything that would cause dramatic change. Of all of the
little tweaks and changes me and my friend Don have discussed over the years
none of them have had anything to do with aileron sensitivity. This is one
area that seems to need no improvement...at least on the HDS product.
Steve
--
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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Hi Steve,
I haven't noticed any issue lately with aileron response on my Zodiac
XL. I did notice it was a bit stiff on the demonstrator - my first time
in the model - many years ago.
My style of flying doesn't really pay any attention to how much force I
must use to get the attitude changes I want. I would only notice a lack
of "Harmony" if I had difficulty getting the plane to respond.
The XL is quite sensitive in pitch. This may be a result of the very
light weight and high speeds. Elevator trim is also very sensitive and
stability is very low. That means setting the trim doesn't prevent
rather large changes in airspeed with turbulence or just mean spiritedness.
All that said, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have the aileron response
on the XL improved a bit. It has much smaller ailerons than the other
Zodiacs. If I am not mistaken, only the XL has flaps which take up a
considerable length of the wing length.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 4/8/2012 7:57 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
[quote]
Good Morning guys...
It has been a long time since I have flown left seat in a 601 product but I
have many hours right seat in a HDS. In the 601HDS the aileron (hingeless)
control is incredibly responsive. Almost too sensitive. I can't imagine a
need to make it more responsive. I am currently building a 650 and will be
starting the wings soon. Does the 601XL/650 have different characteristics
in this respect? I know ZAC changed things up some but having already an HDS
myself I don't see anything that would cause dramatic change. Of all of the
little tweaks and changes me and my friend Don have discussed over the years
none of them have had anything to do with aileron sensitivity. This is one
area that seems to need no improvement...at least on the HDS product.
Steve
--
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:36 am Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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It seems to me they did this because the left to right stick movement was drastically reduced after the upgrade and this seems like it would give some of that back but it also seems like you lose leverage by moving the hole closer to the pivot point.
In a message dated 4/8/2012 11:58:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net writes:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
Hi Steve,
I haven't noticed any issue lately with aileron response on my Zodiac
XL. I did notice it was a bit stiff on the demonstrator - my first time
in the model - many years ago.
My style of flying doesn't really pay any attention to how much force I
must use to get the attitude changes I want. I would only notice a lack
of "Harmony" if I had difficulty getting the plane to respond.
The XL is quite sensitive in pitch. This may be a result of the very
light weight and high speeds. Elevator trim is also very sensitive and
stability is very low. That means setting the trim doesn't prevent
rather large changes in airspeed with turbulence or just mean spiritedness.
All that said, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have the aileron response
on the XL improved a bit. It has much smaller ailerons than the other
Zodiacs. If I am not mistaken, only the XL has flaps which take up a
considerable length of the wing length.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 4/8/2012 7:57 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Freeman"<steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com>
Good Morning guys...
It has been a long time since I have flown left seat in a 601 product but I
have many hours right seat in a HDS. In the 601HDS the aileron (hingeless)
control is incredibly responsive. Almost too sensitive. I can't imagine a
need to make it more responsive. I am currently building a 650 and will be
starting the wings soon. Does the 601XL/650 have different characteristics
in this respect? I know ZAC changed things up some but having already an HDS
myself I don't see anything that would cause dramatic change. Of all of the
little tweaks and changes me and my friend Don have discussed over the years
none of them have had anything to do with aileron sensitivity. This is one
area that seems to need no improvement...at least on the HDS product.
Steve
--
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:45 am Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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Moving the hole closer to the pivot increases leverage; more stick movement per degree of aileron deflection equals more leverage.
To be redundant. the changes to the control horn should a: require more stick movement for the same amount of aileron deflection, b: decrease the amount of force required to move the stick.
To be doubly redundant.
So if you like or require less left/right stick movement with higher forces required, don't make the change. If you think you are working too hard moving the stick left/right and you have clearance on all parts of the system, then this change makes good sense.
Ron
On Apr 10, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] It seems to me they did this because the left to right stick movement was drastically reduced after the upgrade and this seems like it would give some of that back but it also seems like you lose leverage by moving the hole closer to the pivot point.
In a message dated 4/8/2012 11:58:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net) writes:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>
Hi Steve,
I haven't noticed any issue lately with aileron response on my Zodiac
XL. I did notice it was a bit stiff on the demonstrator - my first time
in the model - many years ago.
My style of flying doesn't really pay any attention to how much force I
must use to get the attitude changes I want. I would only notice a lack
of "Harmony" if I had difficulty getting the plane to respond.
The XL is quite sensitive in pitch. This may be a result of the very
light weight and high speeds. Elevator trim is also very sensitive and
stability is very low. That means setting the trim doesn't prevent
rather large changes in airspeed with turbulence or just mean spiritedness.
All that said, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have the aileron response
on the XL improved a bit. It has much smaller ailerons than the other
Zodiacs. If I am not mistaken, only the XL has flaps which take up a
considerable length of the wing length.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 4/8/2012 7:57 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Freeman"<steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com (steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com)>
Good Morning guys...
It has been a long time since I have flown left seat in a 601 product but I
have many hours right seat in a HDS. In the 601HDS the aileron (hingeless)
control is incredibly responsive. Almost too sensitive. I can't imagine a
need to make it more responsive. I am currently building a 650 and will be
starting the wings soon. Does the 601XL/650 have different characteristics
in this respect? I know ZAC changed things up some but having already an HDS
myself I don't see anything that would cause dramatic change. Of all of the
little tweaks and changes me and my friend Don have discussed over the years
none of them have had anything to do with aileron sensitivity. This is one
area that seems to need no improvement...at least on the HDS product.
Steve
--
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davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: Control Balance (Cont.) |
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Can you be more specific about your left to right drastically reduced stick movement. I have a 601XL-B finished and flying. I do not have any reduction in the left to right control stick movement.
Mostly I noticed some additional inertia in the ailerons due to the increase in mass from balancing the control. Otherwise it flies the same.
Gary Ray
From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:32 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Control Balance (Cont.)
It seems to me they did this because the left to right stick movement was drastically reduced after the upgrade and this seems like it would give some of that back but it also seems like you lose leverage by moving the hole closer to the pivot point.
[quote][b]
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