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Approach and Landing Speeds

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carlmeek(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

I'm just about to go through my tenth hour of flying my new Europa and I'm still working to refine my approach and landing.

I'm interested in what speeds people use?  Most relevant to me is a 450m grass bumpy strip in a Tri-Gear XS.

I'd like to know – speeds on Final, "Over the fence" and round out.

I'm trying slightly different speeds on each landing, but feeling generally I'm a bit fast – I'm wondering what speeds are recommended for best safety without compromising control.

Thanks!

-Carl.

    [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:46:08 +0100

  Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm just about to go through my tenth hour of flying my 

new Europa and I'm

 still working to refine my approach and landing.

 

 I'm interested in what speeds people use?  Most relevant 

to me is a 450m

 grass bumpy strip in a Tri-Gear XS.

 

 I'd like to know  speeds on Final, "Over the fence" and 

round out.

 

 I'm trying slightly different speeds on each landing, 

but feeling generally

 I'm a bit fast  I'm wondering what speeds are 

recommended for best safety

 without compromising control.

 

 Thanks!

 -Carl.

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:39 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

Carl, I would stick with 70kt on the whole approach with a 

bit of power on, letting it decay to 60 just as you go 

over the hedge and chopping the power as you touch down. 

 Forget speed at round out, just concentrate on getting 

the round out right and the speed looks after itself. 450m 

should be plenty, as long as there are no significant 

obstructions on approach.  Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:46:08 +0100

  Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm just about to go through my tenth hour of flying my 

new Europa and I'm

 still working to refine my approach and landing.

 

 I'm interested in what speeds people use?  Most relevant 

to me is a 450m

 grass bumpy strip in a Tri-Gear XS.

 

 I'd like to know  speeds on Final, "Over the fence" and 

round out.

 

 I'm trying slightly different speeds on each landing, 

but feeling generally

 I'm a bit fast  I'm wondering what speeds are 

recommended for best safety

 without compromising control.

 

 Thanks!

 -Carl.

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

On 04/13/2012 09:46 AM, Carl Meek wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm interested in what speeds people use?  Most relevant to me is a 450m

 grass bumpy strip in a Tri-Gear XS.

 

 I'd like to know – speeds on Final, "Over the fence" and round out.


	


Depends on the stall speed/features of your ship. I have seen Europa's

that have a 10 knot higher stall speed than some others. I wouldn't

recommend my landing speed to them!



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm trying slightly different speeds on each landing, but feeling

 generally I'm a bit fast


	


This might be due to your experience in other aircraft. Europa's tend to

float a bit more than Cessna 172's.



To give you an idea:

My avarage particular landing speed (well, the short final at least) is

60-65 kots, if the runway is long enough and there is no wind shear or

heavy turbulence. In a short field I tend to land with no more than 60

knots, and in the mountains with lots of wind shear and thermals I

prefer to land with about 70 knots. I find these speeds giving me a

large safety margin and at the same time not causing an excessive flare.

Stall speed of my ship (high top tri gear) is 42 knots (no wing drop

tendency) with flaps fully extended.

I usually come in high enough to perform the final glide with the power

fully idle, except for very short fields where I like to drag the ship

over the threshold: then power off and flaps up and the bird immediately

settles right on the spot.

(If you want to practise this, don't do it initially at the numbers but

choose some other spot on the runway so you have a reasonable margin in

both directions).

Like I said, I prefer to glide to the runway with power fully idle.

Approach speed can be a bit lower if you like to come in with more

power. Also, the Europa side slips reasonably well, this too can be part

of your landing technique.

I always land with flaps fully extended, even with cross winds; the

rudder is powerfull enough to line up with the runway even at low

landing speeds. It may be beneficial to land in cross winds with a bit

more power so the air flow over the rudder remains higher.



 – I'm wondering what speeds are recommended for

 	  Quote: 	
		   best safety without compromising control.


	


Don't copy others landing speeds blindly! It depends on the particular

features of the bird and the abilities and landing technics of the pilot.



Frans

carlmeek(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:46 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

Thanks for the answers Frans and David.

I've been typically flying short final at 70, over the fence at 65.

However, I've found the float can be quite excessive - compared not only

to cessna's but my previous Microlight Jabiru UL-450 (also slippery, and I

used to come over the fence at 60, never more).  I find the europa to

float on the ground effect longer than I've been used to.  It's no

problem, just something to get used to.  Unfortunately in my first few

landings I was finding myself planting the wheels onto the runway rather

than letting the speed decay in the float, and this was making for some

terrible landings.  I'm over that tendency now, but want to explore a

slightly lower speed to see if I can reduce the float and land shorter.  I

know just a few knots can make quite a difference.

Frans, am I understanding you correctly that for a short field you

actually come 'over the fence' and then retract the flaps before touching

down?  I'm imagining you wind the flaps in, and the aircraft settles

faster.  If I understand correctly, it certainly sounds interesting and

I'll have a play - no need on my home 450m, but could be interesting

elsewhere.

I'll have to go and remind myself of the full flap stall speed, but from

memory I think mine is a bit higher than yours, I seem to recall something

around 48kts, but I will check.

-Carl.

On 13/04/2012 09:49, "Frans Veldman" <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

On 04/13/2012 09:46 AM, Carl Meek wrote:

> I'm interested in what speeds people use?  Most relevant to me is a 450m

> grass bumpy strip in a Tri-Gear XS.

> 

> I'd like to know  speeds on Final, "Over the fence" and round out.

Depends on the stall speed/features of your ship. I have seen Europa's

that have a 10 knot higher stall speed than some others. I wouldn't

recommend my landing speed to them!

> I'm trying slightly different speeds on each landing, but feeling

> generally I'm a bit fast

This might be due to your experience in other aircraft. Europa's tend to

float a bit more than Cessna 172's.

To give you an idea:

My avarage particular landing speed (well, the short final at least) is

60-65 kots, if the runway is long enough and there is no wind shear or

heavy turbulence. In a short field I tend to land with no more than 60

knots, and in the mountains with lots of wind shear and thermals I

prefer to land with about 70 knots. I find these speeds giving me a

large safety margin and at the same time not causing an excessive flare.

Stall speed of my ship (high top tri gear) is 42 knots (no wing drop

tendency) with flaps fully extended.

I usually come in high enough to perform the final glide with the power

fully idle, except for very short fields where I like to drag the ship

over the threshold: then power off and flaps up and the bird immediately

settles right on the spot.

(If you want to practise this, don't do it initially at the numbers but

choose some other spot on the runway so you have a reasonable margin in

both directions).

Like I said, I prefer to glide to the runway with power fully idle.

Approach speed can be a bit lower if you like to come in with more

power. Also, the Europa side slips reasonably well, this too can be part

of your landing technique.

I always land with flaps fully extended, even with cross winds; the

rudder is powerfull enough to line up with the runway even at low

landing speeds. It may be beneficial to land in cross winds with a bit

more power so the air flow over the rudder remains higher.

  I'm wondering what speeds are recommended for

> best safety without compromising control.

Don't copy others landing speeds blindly! It depends on the particular

features of the bird and the abilities and landing technics of the pilot.

Frans

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:59 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

Hi there All,



First landing we made with F-LH were poor and bumpy as we managed them like

we did with the Cessna 172!

We discovered that speed is a point but feet and rudder efficiency is

critical and landing was much better with a bit of power and fan blowing. As

stall speed full flap is about 46-48, approach is done at 70 Knots, short

final by 60 and then reducing power to touch by 52-55 but still with some

blowing. This is made the ship nose up quite a lot... This could make the

landing a bit longer but yet we had ever at least 600 meters. Next exercise

will be for us to define a "short landing procedure"

Cheers,



Max  Cointe

F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560

912ULS Airmaster 420 hours

mcointe(at)free.fr



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Carl Meek

Envoyé : vendredi 13 avril 2012 11:44

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: Approach and Landing Speeds






Thanks for the answers Frans and David.



..want to explore a

slightly lower speed to see if I can reduce the float and land shorter.  I

know just a few knots can make quite a difference.



..I'll have a play - no need on my home 450m, but could be interesting

elsewhere.



I'll have to go and remind myself of the full flap stall speed, but from

memory I think mine is a bit higher than yours, I seem to recall something

around 48kts, but I will check.



-Carl.



On 13/04/2012 09:49, "Frans Veldman" <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



On 04/13/2012 09:46 AM, Carl Meek wrote:

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

On 04/13/2012 11:43 AM, Carl Meek wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I've been typically flying short final at 70, over the fence at 65.

 However, I've found the float can be quite excessive


	


A little bit of extra speed has a very markable influence on the flare.

Try a bit lower speed. If the stall characteristics of your ship are

benign, there is nothing to worry about to get over the fence with 60,

provided there is no strong wind or thermal situation.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Frans, am I understanding you correctly that for a short field you

 actually come 'over the fence' and then retract the flaps before touching

 down?


	


You can do that just before touching down, but the timing is critical.

If you to it too early you will get the opposite effect as you are

taking the drag of the flaps away. I usually start retracting the flaps

just when the airplane is about to settle down. This will take away the

lift and also causes the wheels to have more grip on the ground, which

is a good thing if you want to start braking immediately.



This could be more interesting if the flaps could be operated much

faster, i.e. by hand rather than by a servo. Anyone an idea why the

flaps where made electric on the tri-gear?



I have to confess that I modified the flap gear slightly: I drilled a

hole in the arm of the torque tube just below the original hole, so the

leverage to the servo is a bit less. This causes the flaps to extend 3

degrees further and also speeds up the movement of the flaps.



(If I understand the history of the Europa correctly, the flaps where

originally designed for 30 degrees, but the extension was limited to 27

degrees after one found out that 30 degrees allows the mono to take off

earlier than control is achieved. In a tri-gear we don't have to worry

too much about this.)



Frans

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:04 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

Carl, Flying a mono, I don't have the luxury nor the 

distraction of adjustable flaps - they are inevitably 

fully down for landing. Also the touch down happens only 

when the plane stops flying at something very close to the 

stall speed since landing has to be in the '3 point' 

attitude which is much the same as the stall angle of 

attack. If you try to land at a higher speed and a flatter 

angle the mono wheel being in front of the wing centre of 

lift bounces you up in the air in an undignified fashion! 

Having said all that, full flap has a powerful breaking 

effect and I do not expect my ground run to be any more 

than about 100m. One minor point worth noting is that if 

you have a VP prop it should of course be in fully fine 

pitch - a coarse propeller produces a significantly longer 

float and a somewhat longer ground run.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:49:39 +0200

  Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

 

 On 04/13/2012 09:46 AM, Carl Meek wrote:

> I'm interested in what speeds people use?  Most relevant 

>to me is a 450m

> grass bumpy strip in a Tri-Gear XS.

> 

> I'd like to know – speeds on Final, "Over the fence" and 

>round out.

 

 Depends on the stall speed/features of your ship. I have 

seen Europa's

 that have a 10 knot higher stall speed than some others. 

I wouldn't

 recommend my landing speed to them!

 

> I'm trying slightly different speeds on each landing, 

>but feeling

> generally I'm a bit fast

 

 This might be due to your experience in other aircraft. 

Europa's tend to

 float a bit more than Cessna 172's.

 

 To give you an idea:

 My avarage particular landing speed (well, the short 

final at least) is

 60-65 kots, if the runway is long enough and there is no 

wind shear or

 heavy turbulence. In a short field I tend to land with 

no more than 60

 knots, and in the mountains with lots of wind shear and 

thermals I

 prefer to land with about 70 knots. I find these speeds 

giving me a

 large safety margin and at the same time not causing an 

excessive flare.

 Stall speed of my ship (high top tri gear) is 42 knots 

(no wing drop

 tendency) with flaps fully extended.

 I usually come in high enough to perform the final glide 

with the power

 fully idle, except for very short fields where I like to 

drag the ship

 over the threshold: then power off and flaps up and the 

bird immediately

 settles right on the spot.

 (If you want to practise this, don't do it initially at 

the numbers but

 choose some other spot on the runway so you have a 

reasonable margin in

 both directions).

 Like I said, I prefer to glide to the runway with power 

fully idle.

 Approach speed can be a bit lower if you like to come in 

with more

 power. Also, the Europa side slips reasonably well, this 

too can be part

 of your landing technique.

 I always land with flaps fully extended, even with cross 

winds; the

 rudder is powerfull enough to line up with the runway 

even at low

 landing speeds. It may be beneficial to land in cross 

winds with a bit

 more power so the air flow over the rudder remains 

higher.

 

 – I'm wondering what speeds are recommended for

> best safety without compromising control.

 

 Don't copy others landing speeds blindly! It depends on 

the particular

 features of the bird and the abilities and landing 

technics of the pilot.

 

Frans

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

Through flight test find out what the indicated stall speed is at gross

weight and full flap of YOUR aircraft, then multiply this by 1.3, this is

your normal approach speed.

If it is gusty then add half the gust speed, if it is flat calm or a stead

breeze and you are light weight, [single place] then you can creeper it in

carrying a little power at minus five knots standard approach speed.

Practice at altitude flying in the landing configuration [full flap]at your

standard approach speed and get used to the feel of the aircraft, 'recognize

the first nibble of a stall', do it until you are really COMFORTABLE,

practice rate one turns left and right keeping the ball centred.

Ideally practice on a long wide runway with clear approaches, take your time

so you develop a 'feel' for the aircraft.

When you get it right the aircraft 'dies in your hand' one inch above your

chosen touch down point!!! But don't expect it too often!



Regards 

Ivan



--

carlmeek(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

I just thought I'd report back on flying both last night (2 landings) and

today (4 landings).  Thanks to all the advice on the list, I'm feeling

500% more confident, and really happy with landing her.  The technique

I've settled on is basically 5kts slower than I was before, aiming for 60

over the fence, and then really holding it off until it just plops onto

the runway.  The final part of the equation to stop the front wheel

bouncing up as we slow down is NOT to pull back on the elevator (literally

only in the final slowing down bit).  In my previous A/C I always held

full back elevator when taxiing on grass, but this seems to make the

europa too nose bouncy.  In addition, keeping power on a bit longer than I

Used to seems to help, I used to pretty much always shut off power at the

'over the fence' point but have now found that keeping a bit of thrust

until the wheels are nearly down helps keep a nice controlled flare.



Hopefully that's not all nonsense! Either way, 6 nice landings in 2 days

is much better than the last 10 or so being less than satisfactory.

Thanks for all the advice.



Did anyone go to Duxford today?  I heard a Europa inbound as I left around

3pm.



On 13/04/2012 19:11, "Ivan Shaw" <ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com> wrote:



[quote]



Through flight test find out what the indicated stall speed is at gross

weight and full flap of YOUR aircraft, then multiply this by 1.3, this is

your normal approach speed.

If it is gusty then add half the gust speed, if it is flat calm or a stead

breeze and you are light weight, [single place] then you can creeper it in

carrying a little power at minus five knots standard approach speed.

Practice at altitude flying in the landing configuration [full flap]at

your

standard approach speed and get used to the feel of the aircraft,

'recognize

the first nibble of a stall', do it until you are really COMFORTABLE,

practice rate one turns left and right keeping the ball centred.

Ideally practice on a long wide runway with clear approaches, take your

time

so you develop a 'feel' for the aircraft.

When you get it right the aircraft 'dies in your hand' one inch above your

chosen touch down point!!! But don't expect it too often!



Regards 

Ivan



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: Approach and Landing Speeds

Carl, Well done. I am afraid my contribution will not have 

helped. I managed to add 10 kts to what Imeant to say, 

which was down wind at 70,  approach at 60kts and let it 

decay to 50 as you go over the fence assuming its a not 

too high fence! and holding it just off until it stops 

flying. Sounds as though that is pretty much what you are 

doing. Getting it trimmed precisely to 60 on the base leg 

or final (if a longish final) makes it much easier to get 

the rest right. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:50:19 +0100

  Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] 

<carlmeek(at)gmail.com>

 

 I just thought I'd report back on flying both last night 

(2 landings) and

 today (4 landings).  Thanks to all the advice on the 

list, I'm feeling

 500% more confident, and really happy with landing her. 

 The technique

 I've settled on is basically 5kts slower than I was 

before, aiming for 60

 over the fence, and then really holding it off until it 

just plops onto

 the runway.  The final part of the equation to stop the 

front wheel

 bouncing up as we slow down is NOT to pull back on the 

elevator (literally

 only in the final slowing down bit).  In my previous A/C 

I always held

 full back elevator when taxiing on grass, but this seems 

to make the

 europa too nose bouncy.  In addition, keeping power on a 

bit longer than I

 Used to seems to help, I used to pretty much always shut 

off power at the

 'over the fence' point but have now found that keeping a 

bit of thrust

 until the wheels are nearly down helps keep a nice 

controlled flare.

 

 Hopefully that's not all nonsense! Either way, 6 nice 

landings in 2 days

 is much better than the last 10 or so being less than 

satisfactory.

 Thanks for all the advice.

 

 Did anyone go to Duxford today?  I heard a Europa 

inbound as I left around

 3pm.

 

 On 13/04/2012 19:11, "Ivan Shaw" 

<ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 

>

><ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com>

>

>Through flight test find out what the indicated stall 

>speed is at gross

>weight and full flap of YOUR aircraft, then multiply this 

>by 1.3, this is

>your normal approach speed.

>If it is gusty then add half the gust speed, if it is 

>flat calm or a stead

>breeze and you are light weight, [single place] then you 

>can creeper it in

>carrying a little power at minus five knots standard 

>approach speed.

>Practice at altitude flying in the landing configuration 

>[full flap]at

>your

>standard approach speed and get used to the feel of the 

>aircraft,

>'recognize

>the first nibble of a stall', do it until you are really 

>COMFORTABLE,

>practice rate one turns left and right keeping the ball 

>centred.

>Ideally practice on a long wide runway with clear 

>approaches, take your

>time

>so you develop a 'feel' for the aircraft.

>When you get it right the aircraft 'dies in your hand' 

>one inch above your

>chosen touch down point!!! But don't expect it too often!

>

>Regards 

>Ivan

>

>--

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