Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Strategies for survival

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Strategies for survival

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

Talking to center for flight following is even better. You've got

somebody who knows your N number and position (on their radar) and to

whom you can tell you've got a problem before you make that forced

landing. 



Don't count on your cell phone working in the middle of nowhere, by the

way. A handheld radio is a much better bet. You can catch a passing

airliner with it. Remember that frequency on which you were talking to

center? Many of them monitor the guard frequency also. 121.5



Pax,



Ed Holyoke


<brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>



 	  Quote: 	
		  As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what  

route you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much  
	


more effective in case of an accident than is an ELT.



And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is  

pretty useless too.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 Antoine de Saint-Exupry

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: Strategies for survival

HI All-



Not to beat a dead horse, but it's sometimes easy to forget that we have a

very diverse crowd on the list and sometimes things that some of us take

for granted are unclear or unknown to others.  Along those lines, I'd like

to make a few points about VFR flight following.  First, ATC's role in this

is to offer traffic advisories to participating aircraft.  To participate,

all you need a radio and a transponder.  That's it.  Also, you are NOT

under ATC control.  When using flight following you can loop, roll, change

altitude, go sight seeing, generally wander about, and perhaps not even

leave the local area.  ATC doesn't care, as long as what you are doing is

legal.  



The second point is that when you participate, they generate a data block

for you and positively identify your aircraft.  Should radar contact be

lost, the controller gets active notification of that fact.  If radio

contact is also lost, the controller will pass that info along to their

supervisor.  Actually initiating SAR procedures is discretionary and the

timing will vary with the specific circumstances, but if you end up being

overdue they know where to start the search.  Of course, if you are talking

to them and know you're going down, help is just one push of the PTT away.



Might as well put our tax dollars to work-



Glen Matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Strategies for survival

On May 29, 2006, at 9:08 AM, Glen Matejcek wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>



 HI All-



 Not to beat a dead horse, but it's sometimes easy to forget that we  

 have a

 very diverse crowd on the list and sometimes things that some of us  

 take

 for granted are unclear or unknown to others.  Along those lines,  

 I'd like

 to make a few points about VFR flight following.


	


Flight following is a pretty good thing. It gets you another set of  

eyes looking for traffic (and, no, they won't point out every bit of  

traffic to you), and if you do have a problem, it does mean someone  

knows where you are. Out here in the west RADAR coverage does not go  

all the way to the ground so you can't get it everywhere and  

sometimes they are busy and tell you to go away. But, as Glen put it,  

the price is right.



And one other thing: with this being an election year you can expect  

TFRs to pop up around places where the Grand PooBahs go. If you don't  

want to bust a TFR you need to *always* get a briefing before flying.  

Getting traffic advisories from ATC will also usually catch the  

surprise TFR that happens after you got your weather briefing.



The other thing I have found is that if you are on VFR flight  

following and the weather starts to degrade, it is a lot easier to  

get a pop-up IFR clearance since you are already "in the system."



So, I don't see any down-side to asking ATC for VFR traffic  

advisories. You can't be the service for the price.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 Antoine de Saint-Exupry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Strategies for survival

 	  Quote: 	
		  > VFR flight following


	


Isn't all this subject to how busy they are with IFR aircraft? My vague

memory is that they can turn down your request for tracking if their IFR

workload is too high.



Also does coverage exist outside the mode C veil and IFR flyways? Here in

the western US there is lots of terrain outside of that. 



-- Craig

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

Hi all



I guess its starting to get a bit off topic, but in recent times I never

have been turned down for VFR flight following.  I was wondering if this was

a legacy of 9/11... ATC seem to take the opportunity to know where all

aircraft are given the opportunity.  Just speculating....



Paul



do not archive




<craig(at)craigandjean.com>



 	  Quote: 	
		  > VFR flight following


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Isn't all this subject to how busy they are with IFR aircraft? My vague

memory is that they can turn down your request for tracking if their IFR

workload is too high.


	




-- Craig

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

Yeah, right after 911 they started encouraging the use of flight

following in SoCal and, (I guess) instructed controllers to push it.

They were asking for destinations rather than merely direction of flight

and offering flight following before takeoff. They're not still doing it

that way, though. 



It used to be more difficult to get and they were quicker to terminate.

I've only been denied lately when I was too low for radar coverage. 



Pax,



Ed Holyoke



--

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

On May 29, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Craig Payne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <craig(at)craigandjean.com>



>> VFR flight following



 Isn't all this subject to how busy they are with IFR aircraft?


	


Yes.



 	  Quote: 	
		   My vague

 memory is that they can turn down your request for tracking if  

 their IFR

 workload is too high.


	


They can and they do. There have been a couple of flights recently  

where I have been told they couldn't provide service but those time  

are few and far between. Most of the time you can can get advisories.  

It is worth the effort.



It is also a good thing to use as you start working toward your IFR  

rating. Getting used to ATC communications now will make things  

easier later. I introduce my students to ATC advisories when I  

introduce cross-country flying and then encourage them to use it for  

all flights when they leave the home airport traffic pattern.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Also does coverage exist outside the mode C veil and IFR flyways?


	


Yes, wherever there is RADAR coverage. Mostly that is limited by  

altitude in the western US. I find that I usually enjoy continuous  

coverage if I am above 12,000' (and I am almost always above 12,000'  

if I am on a long cross-country flight).



I do find that I have switched back to flying on the victor airways  

for the most part. It isn't that much farther and that is where the  

airports are anyway.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Here in the western US there is lots of terrain outside of that.


	


True but it is still worthwhile to use radar advisories where possible.

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 Antoine de Saint-Exupry

n801bh(at)NetZero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

There is an uprising lately about ATC setting rules to limit their workl=

oad. Whenever I fuel up with 100LL there are federal taxes charged for "=

using the system". If the FAA wants to deny flight following because of =

their perceived workload they need to give us an option. Provide two fue=

l pumps, one that deletes the taxes to fund the"system" and we can fly V=

FR and one that charges taxes so we can fly IFR. Kinda like some governm=

ent agency setting up a toll road, collecting the toll and then saying y=

ou can't drive on it.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 =



do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> wrote:


net>



Yeah, right after 911 they started encouraging the use of flight

following in SoCal and, (I guess) instructed controllers to push it.

They were asking for destinations rather than merely direction of flight=



and offering flight following before takeoff. They're not still doing it=



that way, though. =

It used to be more difficult to get and they were quicker to terminate.

I've only been denied lately when I was too low for radar coverage. =

Pax,



Ed Holyoke



--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

Thanks for the information. I hold a Sport Pilot license and (for medical

reasons) will probably never move up to a Private Pilot rating. So I won't

be practicing for IFR (except for emergency IFR). And a Sport Pilot can't

fly above 10,000 feet (which kind'a crimps my style as I am surrounded by

peaks from 9,000 to 13,000 feet).



-- Craig

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

On May 29, 2006, at 7:31 PM, Craig Payne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <craig(at)craigandjean.com>



 Thanks for the information. I hold a Sport Pilot license and (for  

 medical

 reasons) will probably never move up to a Private Pilot rating. So  

 I won't

 be practicing for IFR (except for emergency IFR). And a Sport Pilot  

 can't

 fly above 10,000 feet (which kind'a crimps my style as I am  

 surrounded by

 peaks from 9,000 to 13,000 feet).


	


What do you do when the rules conflict with safety ...



ATC: "Europa 1234X, we aren't receiving your mode-C reply. Please  

recycle your transponder and say altitude."



You: "Roger center. It looks normal from here. I have a normal reply  

light. Altitude niner-thousand five hundred."



And I bet you never do go over 10,000'.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 Antoine de Saint-Exupry

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Strategies for survival

Hi All-



On the operational side of this, I'd just like to restate that loss of

radar contact during flight following ops does not trigger SAR.  Loss of

radar contact and com together triggers notification of the supervisor, who

notifies the operations desk for the ARTCC.  Initiation of SAR is

discretionary and will depend upon circumstances.  The operations desk here

in Indy told me just yesterday that most of VFR flight following lost

contact cases turn up at their destinations.  To me, this implies that

folks using flight following will occasionally decide to just 'screw it',

squawk 1200, and change freqs.  If this is indeed the case, we are our own

worst enemies, and are in essence crying wolf.



VFR flight following can be initiated within radar coverage, but you can

also make position reports with FSS in non-radar areas when on a VFR flight

plan.  Obviously, contact with the FSS must be available.



And now, what you've all been waiting for, the political hour!



ATC is short staffed and about broke.  One of the solutions they came up

with is to use less people when things are slow.  As I understand the

system, in the enroute centers each of the 4 strata of a given sector was

intended to be staffed by 3 people.  When things are slow, like the dead of

night in the middle of nowhere, those different strata and even different

sectors can be combined such that one person is covering all the positions.

Hence, one bleary eyed controller might be responsible for airspace that

was covered by a dozen or more people earlier in the day.  To a point, this

is a good procedure.  Unfortunately, it got pushed too far and operational

errors increased.  The response was to go back to full staffing all the

time, so there is now typically more likelihood of getting flight

following.  Of course there is a lot more overtime being made now at the

broke agency.  The new contract will include a 'B' scale for new people

that greatly mitigates their career earning potential in an effort to cut

expenditures.  This isn't going to help recruitment of new controllers, and

a quarter of the controllers currently on staff will be eligible to retire

within the next year.  The short sighted politicos have trashed the

situation (starting with rolling all the discrete funding schemes into the

general fund lo those many years ago), can't seem to solve it, and want to

make the whole stink go away by dumping user fees / privatization on us.



Not that I have an opinion on the subject....    



Glen Matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: Strategies for survival

 	  Quote: 	
		   To me, this implies that

 folks using flight following will occasionally decide to just 'screw it',

 squawk 1200, and change freqs.  If this is indeed the case, we are our own

 worst enemies, and are in essence crying wolf.


	


Well, sometimes if the ATC people are *really* busy, it's kind

of hard to get their attention to cancel flight following.

I suspect that may be why some people fail to do so.  Not

a good excuse, but I'll bet it happens.



 	  Quote: 	
		   ...The short sighted politicos have trashed the

 situation (starting with rolling all the discrete funding schemes into the

 general fund lo those many years ago), can't seem to solve it, and want to

 make the whole stink go away by dumping user fees / privatization on us.

 

 Not that I have an opinion on the subject....    

 

 Glen Matejcek


	


..and it seems to exactly match mine, BTW.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

Mickey Coggins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> To me, this implies that

> folks using flight following will occasionally decide to just 'screw it',

> squawk 1200, and change freqs.  If this is indeed the case, we are our own

> worst enemies, and are in essence crying wolf.

 Well, sometimes if the ATC people are *really* busy, it's kind

 of hard to get their attention to cancel flight following.

 I suspect that may be why some people fail to do so.  Not

 a good excuse, but I'll bet it happens.

And I think that just about anyone who uses flight following regularly

has been faced with this problem and forced into this solution.

 	  Quote: 	
		  > ...The short sighted politicos have trashed the

> situation (starting with rolling all the discrete funding schemes into the

> general fund lo those many years ago), can't seem to solve it, and want to

> make the whole stink go away by dumping user fees / privatization on us.

>

> Not that I have an opinion on the subject....    

>

> Glen Matejcek

 ...and it seems to exactly match mine, BTW.

It has been said that politics is the art of unequal and unfair

redistribution of resources.

I am of two minds. The selfish me wants these services for free but the

rational me knows that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Is

this the best way to spend our tax dollars? Still, the money has been

taken from us in the form of use taxes on avgas so it strikes me that it

should be spent for aviation-related activities such as maintenance of

our facilities (airports, navaids, and services). But then I remember

the part about unequal and unfair redistribution of resources. <sigh>

Brian

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am of two minds. The selfish me wants these services for free but the

 rational me knows that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Is

 this the best way to spend our tax dollars? 


	


No, but there are so many worse ways they could be spent.  Let's

focus on those, first.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Still, the money has been

 taken from us in the form of use taxes on avgas so it strikes me that it

 should be spent for aviation-related activities such as maintenance of

 our facilities (airports, navaids, and services). But then I remember

 the part about unequal and unfair redistribution of resources. <sigh>


	


People that grew up and live in NYC can't figure out why the government

builds highways that people can drive on for "free".  Just because they

don't choose to drive a car on the interstate highway system doesn't

mean they don't derive any benefit from it.  Same deal with the ATC

system.  Besides, GA is like a fly riding on an elephant's back.  If

there were no airlines, there would be no need for an ATC system,

and it would not exist.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: Strategies for survival

If I were a controller and on one radar sweep an airplane went from

sqwaking the assigned code to, on the next, sqwaking 1200, I'd assume a

different outcome than if an airplane goes from sqwaking the assigned code

to nothing..  And, that would depend on how low the airplane had been

flying compared to the minimum coverage altitude.



Here in Idaho, there are big patches of real estate on IFR airways where

radar coverage isn't available below 12000MSL.



ATC is usually very cooperative wherever I go.  Even in places where radar

coverage is spotty, as long as they aren't too busy, they'll try to keep

you on, and handed off to the next sector.  Nice to be able to talk to

somebody, even if you aren't actually visible on their scope..

Regards,



Matt-



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>



> To me, this implies that

> folks using flight following will occasionally decide to just 'screw

> it', squawk 1200, and change freqs.  If this is indeed the case, we

> are our own worst enemies, and are in essence crying wolf.



 Well, sometimes if the ATC people are *really* busy, it's kind

 of hard to get their attention to cancel flight following.

 I suspect that may be why some people fail to do so.  Not

 a good excuse, but I'll bet it happens.

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Strategies for survival

There are several fallacies with the Airline's position that each plane

or pilot that accesses the system should pay the same fee.  First, among

many, is derived benefit.  An airline accessing the system is benefiting

from being supported by dozens or hundreds of paying passengers.  Expect

the Airlines to pay accordingly is similar to how income is taxed...the

more you make the more you pay (although less so recently).



The biggest divergence from reality is where the money in the ATC and

Aviation System is spent.  When was the last time a C172 or RV-6 flew

into ATL.  ATL has a maassive ATC system, which GA uses only on the

margin and billions and billions of dollars of humongous runways and

taxi ways and ramp areas the size of some small states.  These

outrageously expensive facilities are of near-zero utility to GA, yet

with our taxes, including fuel taxes, we are helping pick up the tab for

the Airlines--airlines that incidentally haven't figured out how to run

their own companies, let alone figuring out how the ATC and Airport

system should be run and funded.



When the Airlines pay for DEN, ATL et al, then they can come back and

giz GA about paying more.

 

Chuck Jensen



 	  Quote: 	
		   > the part about unequal and unfair redistribution of resources.

<sigh>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 People that grew up and live in NYC can't figure out why the

government
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   builds highways that people can drive on for "free".  Just because

they
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   don't choose to drive a car on the interstate highway system doesn't

 mean they don't derive any benefit from it.  Same deal with the ATC

 system.  Besides, GA is like a fly riding on an elephant's back.  If

 there were no airlines, there would be no need for an ATC system,

 and it would not exist.

 

 --

 Mickey Coggins

 http://www.rv8.ch/

 #82007 finishing

 

 

 do not archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum