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rv7a(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
[quote][b]
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rice737(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've always kind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the connections good/clean, is the battery shorting out? I don't have any experience with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play. Good luck
From: rv7a(at)cox.net
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Quit
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:58:49 -0700
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
[quote]
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
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burnsm(at)suddenlink.net
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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Jim,
I'd start by verifying the high voltage.
If it really does go to 20 that is bad.
Replace the alternator.
Mark
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
[quote]From: Jim Thorne <rv7a(at)cox.net>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 21:58:49 GMT+00:00
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasnÂ’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasnÂ’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, VanÂ’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
[quote][b]
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bobbyhester(at)newwavecom
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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Just thinking. Maybe try a different alternator.
Sent from my Verizon iPhone
On May 11, 2012, at 4:58 PM, "Jim Thorne" <rv7a(at)cox.net (rv7a(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
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cs.com
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matronics.com/contribution
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JLuckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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Jim,
When checking the alternator, was the regulator also checked? This has some classic symptoms of regulator failure. If the voltage is getting that high there is definitely something wrong w/ the regulator.
In your research, did you find that the mags would likely stop making sparks when exposed to that level of over-voltage?
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 14:59
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
0123456789
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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Only the alternator can put out this much power – the pMags are tiny in comparison. Hopefully you have not damaged them with the excessive voltage.
Disconnect the alternator and do a run up. If normal this confirms the alternator as the problem. I had a Nippon Denso alternator slowly go bad on my 8A – same problem, high voltage. I replaced it with a Plane Power alternator. This is a much better product and I recommend it. When you replace, make sure you have proper alternator ground and a clean source voltage connection.
Carl
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rice
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 6:22 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Engine Quit
Just an amateur thought here. Did you look at the battery? I've always kind of thought of it as a shock absorber for the alternator. Are the connections good/clean, is the battery shorting out? I don't have any experience with the P mags so I don't know how they would come into play. Good luck
From: rv7a(at)cox.net (rv7a(at)cox.net)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Engine Quit
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:58:49 -0700
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
01234567890123
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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I am curious about the battery... What size ? What brand ?
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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pilots2(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: Engine Quit |
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I would agree with Jim here. Check the regulator. An alternator basically puts out 100% of its rated power when it is up operating speed and the regulator chokes it down to manageable levels. If you have one of the old style regulators with the coils and points - junk it and pick up a solid state one. Many of the newer alternators have internal regualtors and to check them out I would take it to an automotive electrical shop and have them run it on a tester.
Reuven
Enjoy life now
It has an expiration date.
From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Engine Quit
Jim,
When checking the alternator, was the regulator also checked? This has some classic symptoms of regulator failure. If the voltage is getting that high there is definitely something wrong w/ the regulator.
In your research, did you find that the mags would likely stop making sparks when exposed to that level of over-voltage?
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thorne
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 14:59
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Engine Quit
OK I need some help on where to start looking. Sorry for a long post but don’t know how to say it without leaving important stuff out. About a month ago I lost power on takeoff. It didn’t quit completely so thanks to some throttle blips and altitude I made the “impossible turn” and got the plane back on the ground and taxied normally to the hangar.
First we checked the fuel system, doing fuel flows every conceivable way we knew how. Even tied the tail down and ran one in a “climb out attitude”. All flows seemed to be normal.
The next thing was to download the Dynon data log. In looking that over it became apparent at the time of the incident I was producing 62 Amps and 20+ Volts. This would last for a few seconds and drop to a more normal range then spike again it did it several times. It appeared that the spikes were when the engine wasn’t running.
The next was checking the P and E mags. Brad, at E-Mag, after hearing my story suggested I send them in. They found the circuit board in the P-Mag wasn’t reliable. Both mags had been subjected to very high temps, according to Brad this could have been from the engine oil temp or the high amperage. I learned that I had the blast tubes aimed incorrectly. They have been rebuilt and are now both P-Mags.
The alternator, Van’s Nippon Denso, was bench checked twice by two separate shops. Everything was normal.
The plane was reassembled and test run. Everything seemed normal until I ran high RPM, 2000+. As soon as the RPMs climbed the Dynon showed the amps climbed right up to 60 and voltage up to 20. The engine kept running on the ground but to say the least I am not enthusiastic trying to fly it with these same conditions.
Where do I go from here?
Jim Thorne
RV7A
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com |
012
3
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: Engine Quit |
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It sounds to me like the sense lead to the regulator is intermittent. The fault may be internal to the regulator, or it may be a loose or broken wire. I think on the Vans alternator hookup that one of the wires going into the back of the alternator would be that lead. It may connect directly to the field supply near the connector going into the alternator. At any rate, carefully check that wiring by tugging on the wire while you have a voltmeter connected and the alternator and master switches on, but disconnected from the alternator.
If no problem is found with the wiring, replace the regulator (inside the alternator), or replace the alternator and regulator -- regardless of what a bench test shows. There isn't as much vibration on the bench as there is on the Lycoming!
If the sense lead opens up the alternator may go "full field", or it may not -- depending on whether there is a fail safe internal circuit to pick up another sense point. (GM regulators have this safety feature. Not sure about Nippondenso.)
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
[quote][b]
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