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Carb Alternative

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Yak Driver

Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 34

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: Carb Alternative

Does anyone know of a replacement or alternative carby for the M14P?

Yak Driver.



 [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:23 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa, OK, the premier US M14P engine     overhaul shop, has developed fuel injection for the M14.  Works     beautifully.  The contact is Rhonda Bewley and I've copied her on     this email.  They are great people and most definitely know their     stuff.

     

     Barrett has also developed an outstanding coil-over (one coil per     spark plug) totally electronic ignition for the M14.  

     

     Their telephone number is +1 918-835-1089

      	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
     

     On 5/18/2012 2:52 AM, Anthony Hudacek wrote:     [quote]                Does anyone know of a replacement or alternative carby for           the M14P?

         

         

         Yak Driver.

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Carb Alternative

I have had 2 M 14PFs on which I replaced the pressure carb with an airflow performance throttle body. Simple units, trouble free, no need for carb heat and the added benefit of manual mixture control.



http://www.airflowperformance.com/



That and Dennis Savarese's plug conversion were 2 of the best investments I made relative to the M14.

_________________
Milt

johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:08 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

Dennis, 

Is starting an issue with the fuel injection system? Is it recommended to install the coil over system in conjunction with fuel injection? I will contact them for more info as well?

John



Sent from my iPhone



On May 18, 2012, at 8:19 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:



[quote]                   Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa, OK, the premier US M14P engine     overhaul shop, has developed fuel injection for the M14.  Works     beautifully.  The contact is Rhonda Bewley and I've copied her on     this email.  They are great people and most definitely know their     stuff.

     

     Barrett has also developed an outstanding coil-over (one coil per     spark plug) totally electronic ignition for the M14.  

     

     Their telephone number is +1 918-835-1089

      	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
     

     On 5/18/2012 2:52 AM, Anthony Hudacek wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		                  Does anyone know of a replacement or alternative carby for           the M14P?

         

         

         Yak Driver.

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     

	


[b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

I'm not aware of any starting issues with the FI system.  There may     have been at one time.  But Monty Barrett Sr. has developed a fuel     nozzle that works perfectly with the M14 and has been tested in     their engine test cell facility.   I don't believe it is necessary     to install the electronic ignition with the fuel injection.      Although, for maximum efficiency and performance, both systems work     very nicely together.

      	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
     

     On 5/18/2012 8:04 AM, John Nolan wrote:     [quote]       Dennis, 

       

       

       Is starting an issue with the fuel injection system? Is it         recommended to install the coil over system in conjunction with         fuel injection? I will contact them for more info as well?

       

       

       John

         

         Sent from my iPhone

       

         On May 18, 2012, at 8:19 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>         wrote:

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		                                 Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa, OK, the premier US M14P           engine overhaul shop, has developed fuel injection for the           M14.  Works beautifully.  The contact is Rhonda Bewley and           I've copied her on this email.  They are great people and most           definitely know their stuff.

           

           Barrett has also developed an outstanding coil-over (one coil           per spark plug) totally electronic ignition for the M14.  

           

           Their telephone number is +1 918-835-1089

            	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
           

           On 5/18/2012 2:52 AM, Anthony Hudacek wrote:            	  Quote: 	
		                              Does anyone know of a replacement or alternative                 carby for the M14P?

               

               

               Yak Driver.

             

              	  Quote: 	
		  

	
           

	
         

       

	
     [b]

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Carb Alternative

The fuel injection system will cost around 7K in parts by the time you buy all the parts to convert. 

If you are paying someone to install I figure 30 hours of work on Yak 52.

You will need. 

Airflow Performance Fuel injection system

Kimball Fuel bar to replace Airflow systems part

Fuel screen and new Electric High pressure fuel pump

New fuel gages for higher pressure 30 to 40 psi

New hoses and adapters from US to Metric

Modified or replaced control rods as controls now on right side.

Electrical system add on for electric fuel boost pump and mounting brackets.

Need for air screen. Fuel control unit is very sensitive to air flow disruption so you need to deliver air into unit as smooth as possible. AKA Pitts 12 style or plenum. 

Install on CJ or Yak is slightly different.

Not as easy as some would make it sounds and a lot of hours work to install.



You will also want a JPI engine monitor as well.  another 4K and install issue all it's own.



You will also get to play with all the new controls while flying formation if you do that.  Most annoying.



Have fun.

Been there done that.

Dale

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:26 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

As Dale says, it is not a quick "bolt-in" mod. One problem is that the

Airfow unit is a bit longer than the carb., so the cowling needs to be

modified.



Also the system needs much higher pressure than that provided by the

mechanical pump, so you use an electric pump, but IF the electrics go you

are back to the mechanical pump, so this needs to be set to produce a much

higher pressure than it was designed for.



The problem with the carb. Is that so few know how to set it up properly, or

don't even bother to try, so most do not run nearly as well as they should!!



Richard Goode

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com



--

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

We desperately need true multiport fuel injection for the M14P to be able to use future avgas alternatives to their full efficiency and performance.

Rick Volker

Sent from my iPhone



On May 18, 2012, at 9:28 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:



[quote]                   I'm not aware of any starting issues with the FI system.  There may     have been at one time.  But Monty Barrett Sr. has developed a fuel     nozzle that works perfectly with the M14 and has been tested in     their engine test cell facility.   I don't believe it is necessary     to install the electronic ignition with the fuel injection.      Although, for maximum efficiency and performance, both systems work     very nicely together.

      	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
     

     On 5/18/2012 8:04 AM, John Nolan wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		         Dennis, 

       

       

       Is starting an issue with the fuel injection system? Is it         recommended to install the coil over system in conjunction with         fuel injection? I will contact them for more info as well?

       

       

       John

         

         Sent from my iPhone

       

         On May 18, 2012, at 8:19 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>         wrote:

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		                                 Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa, OK, the premier US M14P           engine overhaul shop, has developed fuel injection for the           M14.  Works beautifully.  The contact is Rhonda Bewley and           I've copied her on this email.  They are great people and most           definitely know their stuff.

           

           Barrett has also developed an outstanding coil-over (one coil           per spark plug) totally electronic ignition for the M14.  

           

           Their telephone number is +1 918-835-1089

            	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
           

           On 5/18/2012 2:52 AM, Anthony Hudacek wrote:            	  Quote: 	
		                              Does anyone know of a replacement or alternative                 carby for the M14P?

               

               

               Yak Driver.

             

              	  Quote: 	
		  

	
           

	
         

       

	
     

	


[b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:52 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The problem with the carb. Is that so few know how to set it up properly, or

 don't even bother to try, so most do not run nearly as well as they should!!

	




This is a really key point because, in essence, there is almost no difference between the airflow performance fuel injection and the pressure carb. Both work on exactly the same principle. Both are "single point fuel injection," or, "throttle body fuel injection." There is no reason why the "pressure carb" can't work just as well as the Airflow Performance unit. 

 



And Richard has it right: if you set up the pressure carb (either the Russian or Chinese carbs) properly, they will work as well as the Airflow Performance unit. But that requires a flow-bench and not many people have one or know how to use one.

 



But Airflow Performance is actively supporting their product, which gives it a huge leg up. But that doesn't mean it is a game changer.

And to the person who was asking about starting issues, the airflow performance unit works like the pressure carb and so heat-soaking of the fuel lines is much less of an issue. So, no, it is not a problem.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

Thanks for the responses,

  

 Okay, I'm I new Yak-52 owner. I confident that this Carb is stock has never been re jetted. I also know the carb mod for loading up at low power setting has not been done. From experience what recommendations would anyone have to begin tuning my carb? I am flying in the mid-atlantic area doing mostly acro and some traveling.

  

 On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

 [quote] On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:



    	  Quote: 	
		  The problem with the carb. Is that so few know how to set it up properly, or

don't even bother to try, so most do not run nearly as well as they should!!

 	
 

 This is a really key point because, in essence, there is almost no difference between the airflow performance fuel injection and the pressure carb. Both work on exactly the same principle. Both are "single point fuel injection," or, "throttle body fuel injection." There is no reason why the "pressure carb" can't work just as well as the Airflow Performance unit. 

  



 And Richard has it right: if you set up the pressure carb (either the Russian or Chinese carbs) properly, they will work as well as the Airflow Performance unit. But that requires a flow-bench and not many people have one or know how to use one.

  



 But Airflow Performance is actively supporting their product, which gives it a huge leg up. But that doesn't mean it is a game changer.

 



 And to the person who was asking about starting issues, the airflow performance unit works like the pressure carb and so heat-soaking of the fuel lines is much less of an issue. So, no, it is not a problem.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

 [url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)   



 	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

First-do you have an engine manual? Don’t even think of touching the carb without!!

 

Then, it is a logical process, but really should be undertaken by someone who knows them. The problem is that the adjustments are interdependent, and there are 5 adjustment areas, and a small change of one affects others.

 

And the “mod” to weaken the mixture on acceleration is not a mod at all-it is blocking the accelerator jets, when the real solution is to install smaller ones for less fuel!!

 

 

 

Richard Goode

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

 

Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Nolan

Sent: 18 May 2012 17:27

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Carb Alternative



 

Thanks for the responses,



 



Okay, I'm I new Yak-52 owner. I confident that this Carb is stock has never been re jetted. I also know the carb mod for loading up at low power setting has not been done. From experience what recommendations would anyone have to begin tuning my carb? I am flying in the mid-atlantic area doing mostly acro and some traveling.



 



On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The problem with the carb. Is that so few know how to set it up properly, or

don't even bother to try, so most do not run nearly as well as they should!! 	


 

This is a really key point because, in essence, there is almost no difference between the airflow performance fuel injection and the pressure carb. Both work on exactly the same principle. Both are "single point fuel injection," or, "throttle body fuel injection." There is no reason why the "pressure carb" can't work just as well as the Airflow Performance unit. 



 



And Richard has it right: if you set up the pressure carb (either the Russian or Chinese carbs) properly, they will work as well as the Airflow Performance unit. But that requires a flow-bench and not many people have one or know how to use one.



 



But Airflow Performance is actively supporting their product, which gives it a huge leg up. But that doesn't mean it is a game changer.



 



And to the person who was asking about starting issues, the airflow performance unit works like the pressure carb and so heat-soaking of the fuel lines is much less of an issue. So, no, it is not a problem.



 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA) 

  	  Quote: 	
		    et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listttp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	




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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

Are you suggesting a closed loop or open loop design? 



Mark Bitterlich

--

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

The development costs of an open loop system would be bad enough. I imagine a "check engine " light coming on in a closed loop system , as in a modern car. The different specific gravities of new fuels, along with their unique fuel- air mixtures beg for a gami jector style nozzle optimized for each cylinder. 

    In my  carbureted M14P, with avgas, there seems to be much room for improvement to get more HP out of a stock engine without any other mods. There is quite a difference in EGT  between top and  bottom cylinders. Maybe we could see 400 Hp out of a stock M14P with a multiport system. I guess we would need new cylinder design to accommodate. Is there any impetus for any new technical development with this engine? Not sure with only about 500 units flying in the west. Would one of us pay $20,000 for multiport if it gave 30 or 40 horsepower using electronic ignition ? Maybe. Development costs are huge which is why we are left with the current  choices.

Rick



Sent from my iPhone



On May 18, 2012, at 3:08 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Are you suggesting a closed loop or open loop design? 

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: Carb Alternative

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 12:52 PM, RICHARD VOLKER <rick(at)rvairshows.com (rick(at)rvairshows.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: RICHARD VOLKER <rick(at)rvairshows.com (rick(at)rvairshows.com)>

 

 The development costs of an open loop system would be bad enough. I imagine a "check engine " light coming on in a closed loop system , as in a modern car. The different specific gravities of new fuels, along with their unique fuel- air mixtures beg for a gami jector style nozzle optimized for each cylinder.

 	




Well, EFI is actually pretty straight forward. Most systems are effectively open loop but will go closed-loop during cruise to optimize efficiency. The addition of a wideband O2 sensor makes lots of really interesting things possible. 

 



A number of systems available now are quasi-close-loop, in that the wideband O2 sensor is monitored over a period of time and the software actually tweaks the fuel map in real time until it is pretty optimized for the engine. In the case of the M14 or Housai, it would just mean getting the injector(s) mounted somewhere, cobble together a base map that will let the engine run, and then do acceleration tests at ever-increasing throttle settings so that the firmware tweaks the map. Dump the map and extrapolate to the WOT portion, being careful to err on the rich side. Of course, doing it on a dyno would be easier. 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		       In my  carbureted M14P, with avgas, there seems to be much room for improvement to get more HP out of a stock engine without any other mods. 	




Surprisingly, unless the mixture is WAAAY off, it is difficult to get more power with just carburation changes. The induction system, cylinder, and valve lift and timing (all things we really can't change) determine the volumetric efficiency. All we can do with carburation is to make sure the right mass of fuel rides along with the mass of air going in there.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  There is quite a difference in EGT  between top and  bottom cylinders. Maybe we could see 400 Hp out of a stock M14P with a multiport system. 	
 



A difference in EGT doesn't really tell you much because moving your EGT probe a few mm one way or the other can make large differences in EGT without any change in mixture at all. If you want to know how things are going, you need to slowly lean the engine and watch to see which cylinder peaks first and how much mixture change there is between first jug to peak and last jug to peak.

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I guess we would need new cylinder design to accommodate. 	




Perhaps. There may be enough ways to improve the flow through the valves without going overboard.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is there any impetus for any new technical development with this engine? Not sure with only about 500 units flying in the west. Would one of us pay $20,000 for multiport if it gave 30 or 40 horsepower using electronic ignition ? Maybe. Development costs are huge which is why we are left with the current  choices.

 	




Well, ignition is going to give less increase in hp unless current timing is just so wrong. Actually you need to do all of these things: improve volumetric efficiency, tweak the fuel injection to match the improved air flow, and then do the hook curve to find the optimal ignition timing for each point on the map.

 



I think that the real reason for making the changes is to improve reliability and maybe to eke out some efficiency improvements at lower power (cruise) settings. But if you aren't mucking about with different kinds of fuels and you are optimizing for full-throttle/power operation, I think you may find that the pressure carb and fixed mag timing works quite well.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

MONTY(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: Carb Alternative

I took  a week off and went fishing with an old school mate.  Had a  blast.

  

 Starting fuel injected M14 engines:

  

 Very  easy.  If you have a boost pump ( required for fuel injection ). 3-5  seconds of prime with mixture in ICO,then  mixture to full rich, throttle  cracked, ( not very much ), mags OFF, air valve and oil valve  OPEN  ( if equipped ), when engine hits both mags ON, Engine should start  on 2 or 3 blades,  If engine is warm, reduce the priming time.  Set  throttle  where the engine will run 900-1100 RPM after the propeller comes  out of high pitch until warmed up.

  

 Monty  Barrett

 Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.

 [quote]   

   --

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