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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
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 Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
· Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
· The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
· We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
· A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
· We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
· All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
· We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
· The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
· We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
[quote][b]
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barrynorman(at)comcast.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:39 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Bob,
I have had multiple experiences with my Pulsar, both the 912 and the 912S where after landing and refueling, getting it started again due to the heat causing the gas to boil in the carbs and creating vapor lock. Once the engine gets restarted it will run rough for several seconds before clearing up. It's never died before but come close. I wrapped the exhaust with header wrap and that helped the situation. Twice, on extended delays for takeoff, I had rough running do excessive temps under the cowling and vapor lock issues. I think it's worse with ethanol in the gas. My exhaust is the Pulsar III exhaust that sits under the engine.
Barry
From: "Bob Heiser" <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us>
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 11:13:36 AM
Subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV
Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
[quote]
= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
; http://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
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kelly.p.crowley(at)boeing
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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<![endif]--> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} <![endif]--> Bob,
So, engine will run with three things.... Fuel, air, spark... Did you look at the electrical system and assure you the mags are working? Don't see anything about the carbs? Test to assure no obstructions? settings?
Kelly Crowley
Sr Production Manager, Cell 10
Boeing Charleston, S.C.
Cell: 316-304-5711
e-mail: kelly.p.crowley(at)boeing.com
787 DREAM?LINER
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 11:14 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV
Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
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God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
[quote]
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gregsmi
Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 268
Location: Topeka, KS
|
| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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|
Bob, did you check the tank vent to see of it was plugged? How about the breather pipes on the carbs, did you change anything with them? An early builder decided to extend these to the bottom of the cowl and had engine failure at 100 feet.
In a message dated 5/17/2012 10:15:46 A.M. Central Daylight Time, w7ikt(at)fly-web.us writes:
| Quote: |
Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
|
[quote][b]
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ArmTW(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Bob, and All,
For a period of time, I had problems with a rough running engine (912UL) after a warm start; whereas it always ran fine after a cold start. I had essentially attributed the problem to vapor lock of some kind, although I could never find the cause. A few years ago, with the help of fellow builder, we finally resolved the issue as a corroded spring within the carburetor.
The carburetors have some very small internal passageways that are easy to clog and will absolutely cause problems for smooth engine operation. The corroding spring was shedding debris into the passageways, which was causing my particular problem. I never had an engine failure, but it definitely ran very rough after a warm start. I suspect ethanol in the fuel was leading to the corrosion. The corrosion didn’t look like much during the original discovery, but the impact was not trivial. Incidentally, ensuring those carburetor passages remain clean seemed to nearly eliminate any RPM drop between “mags” (circuits) on the check.
I had sent an email to the group detailing my situation along with spring failures on the exhaust, but I think the email was rejected from the old server since I had pictures to explain the problem. I’ve had a few other emails fail to go through, not realizing at the time that photos were an issue. Ultimately, I posted the information on my website. If you think the problem could be similar, I’ve got a repeat of the description and picture of the exact part at the bottom of the page. To see, click on the following link and then “Ongoing Pulsar work”: http://terryarmstrong.com/aviation/index.html
Terry
N279TA
PS- Orv, sorry to hear you are saying goodbye to your Pulsar. I enjoyed my previous opportunity to fly into Roswell and our visit!
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:14 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV
Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
· Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
· The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
· We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
· A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
· We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
· All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
· We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
· The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
· We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List |
0123456789
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MyronTruex(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:48 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Adding my two cents. I found my original fuel pump holding back fuel flow. I had an inline fuel filter just past the tank switch and fuel pump so I could see if fuel was actually getting through. I had many issues in the beginning due to fuel starvation. Never a dead engine but one it would almost go dead on a steep climb out. Long story is I ran the fuel pump always during takeoffs and landings and most often just let it run. I changed my fuel filters every 25 hours. So little fuel flows that the slightest obstruction will starve these carbs. The other item to check very frequently is the carb bowls. With a cool engine I carefully pulled the bowls off and inspected for anything. A piece of junk the size of a coffee ground can put you out of business when it gets into the thimble size area and then acts like a check valve. One drop of water in the carb bowl might be there for some time and then you do a steep turn or climb out and the water then gets slurped into the thimble .
I had a gascolator on mine in the beginning and I found it contributed to fuel starvation. I tied my plane to a truck, ran it full tilt until it went very rough and shut it off. After cooling I could see air in the gascolator and the fuel bowls were starving. The gascolator is in the field next to my hangar. I had a pretty good right arm in those days.
It took a long time for me to trust hard climb outs. I would climb out at about 500 fpm and when a safe altitude was reached I would nose up and push the throttle and fly right on the edge of a stall trying to pull as much fuel as possible. That is a steep attitude as all of you know.
Another item that could have caused the issue. If you had a hard landing before refueling the carb could have been jarred loose and decided to come undone at the worst possible time.
I lost an exhaust tip once and had to buy one locally that was kept in place by a clamp. The angle was not great and the pipe bumped my firewall on a hard climb out. After waiting out a storm on the very last leg of our trip to Lawrence I hit the throttle and went nose high. The vibrations in the cockpit were annoying but not causing any issues or so I thought. The engine went rough, I made a turn and leveled out and made a nice landing with the engine running smooth as silk. Rex Miller and I were flying our planes and he came back and helped me diagnose the issue. It seems the hard vibration probably foamed the fuel in the one carb. I know it sounds crazy but it is the only thing we could come up with. I moved the exhaust extension to the best angle it would go and off we went. I didn't do any more hard climbs during that trip and didn't have any more problems.
Many folks built inspection ports on their cowling but I decided it was just better to remove the cowling during pre-flight. I could see any tiny leaks and shake the mufflers to check for any issues.
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GREGSMI(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:55 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Trouble Shooting N912RV
Bob, did you check the tank vent to see of it was plugged? How about the breather pipes on the carbs, did you change anything with them? An early builder decided to extend these to the bottom of the cowl and had engine failure at 100 feet.
In a message dated 5/17/2012 10:15:46 A.M. Central Daylight Time, w7ikt(at)fly-web.us writes:
| Quote: |
Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->· <!--[endif]-->We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
| Quote: | | ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-Lists.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.comp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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sonja.englert(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:28 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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I can confirm that the Pulsar fuel system is a bit marginal from the point of view of always providing enough fuel flow to the engine, especially at high power settings / steep angles. I have had my share of problems. Small things or restrictions can cause the carb bowls to be filled incompletely which first leans out the engine, can cause it to run rough and in the worst case cause power loss. I always run the electric pump on takeoffs.
Sonja
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fb8ff6c485fb183b4b9st02duc
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bernard.wilder2(at)gmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:43 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Bob,
When you first took the fuel system apart you said that you could not blow back through the electric fuel pump. You said there was a check valve. Later you said that you could blow through it in both directions.Doesn't sound consistent. Is it possible that there is an intermitent fault with the check valve in the electric fuel pump ? ? ? ?
If you still have it, shake it up, blow in both directions, abuse it to see if you can get it to behave differently.
Question: Did you have a bleed back line to the fuel cells eminating from between the engine fuel pump and the carbs ? ? ? Before I put mine in I would occasionally have trouble starting a hot engine and once had the engine stop because vapor lock had prevented fuel flow. (( I was still on the ground.))
Bernie Wilder
On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 10:26 AM, sonja.englert(at)juno.com (sonja.englert(at)juno.com) <sonja.englert(at)juno.com (sonja.englert(at)juno.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Pulsar-List message posted by: "sonja.englert(at)juno.com (sonja.englert(at)juno.com)" <sonja.englert(at)juno.com (sonja.englert(at)juno.com)>
I can confirm that the Pulsar fuel system is a bit marginal from the point of view of always providing enough fuel flow to the engine, especially at high power settings / steep angles. I have had my share of problems. Small things or restrictions can cause the carb bowls to be filled incompletely which first leans out the engine, can cause it to run rough and in the worst case cause power loss. I always run the electric pump on takeoffs.
Sonja
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fb8ff6c485fb183b4b9st02duc
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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 5/22/2012 9:42 AM, Bernard Wilder wrote: | Quote: | Bob,
When you first took the fuel system apart you said that you could not blow back through the electric fuel pump. You said there was a check valve. Later you said that you could blow through it in both directions.Doesn't sound consistent. Is it possible that there is an intermitent fault with the check valve in the electric fuel pump ? ? ? ?
|
You are right it is a puzzle as to why I could blow thru the 12v fuel pump both ways after removing it. Best guess it was from the rough handling removing the pump. Actually there are 2 check valves in the pump, one fixed and one on the shuttle that moves the fuel. I have the pump back from the NTSB after they took it apart. I have inspected it and run it and do not see how it would block the fuel flow. Yes I have run it in different positions.
| Quote: |
If you still have it, shake it up, blow in both directions, abuse it to see if you can get it to behave differently.
|
I have tried.
| Quote: |
Question: Did you have a bleed back line to the fuel cells eminating from between the engine fuel pump and the carbs ? ? ?
|
NO.
[quote] Before I put mine in I would occasionally have trouble starting a hot engine and once had the engine stop because vapor lock had prevented fuel flow. (( I was still on the ground.))
Bernie Wilder
[b]
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kdpalmer(at)mweb.co.za
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:51 pm Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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On Sunday I went up in a plane Cech factory built - with a 912S and had mentioned your problem to the owner so, he put the electic pump on for 15 seconds - turned it off - turned the fuel off at the selector - started, the oil temp came up in about 4 minutes then soon after the RPM started to die, turned fuel on - electic pump on - and we were away again, to the holding point for take off ??
[quote] ---
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mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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|
It would seem that the only way a Facett check valve ball could block fuel flow would involve a large enough foreign debris to jam a check valve ball in the seated position. Prior to the accident, were you seeing any signs of debris collecting in the firewall gas collator... like fuel tank coating etc? I am going to install a check valve in parallel with the Facett pump on my XP. I am not too keen on the idea of installing fuel filters on the output of all three fuel tanks. I inspect the ACS gas collator on a regular basis to determine the health of my fuel tanks. Thanks for sharing information regarding your unfortunate accident.
Dave Weaver
--- On Tue, 5/22/12, Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Bob Heiser <w7ikt(at)fly-web.us>
Subject: Re: Trouble Shooting N912RV
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 10:44 PM
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 5/22/2012 9:42 AM, Bernard Wilder wrote: | Quote: | Bob,
When you first took the fuel system apart you said that you could not blow back through the electric fuel pump. You said there was a check valve. Later you said that you could blow through it in both directions.Doesn't sound consistent. Is it possible that there is an intermitent fault with the check valve in the electric fuel pump ? ? ? ?
|
You are right it is a puzzle as to why I could blow thru the 12v fuel pump both ways after removing it. Best guess it was from the rough handling removing the pump. Actually there are 2 check valves in the pump, one fixed and one on the shuttle that moves the fuel. I have the pump back from the NTSB after they took it apart. I have inspected it and run it and do not see how it would block the fuel flow. Yes I have run it in different positions.
| Quote: |
If you still have it, shake it up, blow in both directions, abuse it to see if you can get it to behave differently.
|
I have tried.
| Quote: |
Question: Did you have a bleed back line to the fuel cells eminating from between the engine fuel pump and the carbs ? ? ?
|
NO.
| Quote: | Before I put mine in I would occasionally have trouble starting a hot engine and once had the engine stop because vapor lock had prevented fuel flow. (( I was still on the ground.))
Bernie Wilder
el=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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olk(at)plateautel.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Friend Terry – Thanks for forwarding the link. Very interesting! Orv Krohn
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Armstrong
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:12 PM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Trouble Shooting N912RV
Bob, and All,
For a period of time, I had problems with a rough running engine (912UL) after a warm start; whereas it always ran fine after a cold start. I had essentially attributed the problem to vapor lock of some kind, although I could never find the cause. A few years ago, with the help of fellow builder, we finally resolved the issue as a corroded spring within the carburetor.
The carburetors have some very small internal passageways that are easy to clog and will absolutely cause problems for smooth engine operation. The corroding spring was shedding debris into the passageways, which was causing my particular problem. I never had an engine failure, but it definitely ran very rough after a warm start. I suspect ethanol in the fuel was leading to the corrosion. The corrosion didn’t look like much during the original discovery, but the impact was not trivial. Incidentally, ensuring those carburetor passages remain clean seemed to nearly eliminate any RPM drop between “mags” (circuits) on the check.
I had sent an email to the group detailing my situation along with spring failures on the exhaust, but I think the email was rejected from the old server since I had pictures to explain the problem. I’ve had a few other emails fail to go through, not realizing at the time that photos were an issue. Ultimately, I posted the information on my website. If you think the problem could be similar, I’ve got a repeat of the description and picture of the exact part at the bottom of the page. To see, click on the following link and then “Ongoing Pulsar work”: http://terryarmstrong.com/aviation/index.html
Terry
N279TA
PS- Orv, sorry to hear you are saying goodbye to your Pulsar. I enjoyed my previous opportunity to fly into Roswell and our visit!
From: owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:14 AM
To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV
Trouble Shooting N912RV
Group,
Looking for your experiences or ideas as to why the Rotax 912uls in my Pulsar failed on takeoff.
Event Description:
I added fuel to N912RV’s right tank to bring the total fuel in the tank to about 6 gallons. I ran the 12v electric fuel pump for about 20 seconds before starting the engine. I taxied to the runway (about 2 minutes) checked the mag’s at 4000 rpm and left the engine running at 4000 rpm to bring the oil temperature up to 120 degrees (another 2 minutes). I took off and climbed to about 50’ and the engine ran rough for 3 or 4 seconds then died completely. Fuel selector was on the right tank and the 12v electric fuel pump was off. Also the temperature and dew point eliminate the possibility of carb ice.
Trouble Shooting
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son and I trouble shot the loss of power. Note: The N912RV has since been picked up by the insurance company.
· Mechanical Fuel Pump was removed from engine, put in vice and pumped fuel from jar A to jar B.
· The 6 gallons of fuel in the Right Tank was lost due to crash damage. However we removed the quick drain and were able to catch about 1 OZ of fuel, no water in the fuel. Also the lawn mower has been operating on the same gas both before the accident and after.
· We opened up the right tank above the fuel pickup and found no debris or obstructions by the fuel pickup elbow. The tank coating was not pealing of flaking off.
· A clear glass fuel filter above the engine near the mechanical fuel pump was empty of fuel after the accident. We were able to blow thru the fuel filter in both directions and the filter was clean and contined no debris. Also the mechanical fuel pump when removed from the engine had little fuel also indicating a fuel starvation problem.
· We pulled the engine thru 4 compression strokes after the accident.
· All the fuel lines removed looked in great shape.
· We removed the wings to get access to the fuel selector and 12v. Fuel pump.
· The fuel selector was removed tested and operated normally.
· We were unable to blow from the fuel filter back thru the 12v fuel pump and fuel selector into the right tank. Thought we had found a problem, we later found out there is a check valve in the 12v fuel pump. However after removing the 12v fuel pump (it got bumped around during removal) we were able to blow thru it in either direction, check valve was not working. I sent the 12v fuel pump to the NTSB and they tested the pump and it pumped normally and the check valve was working normally.
Note the Facet 12v fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. There is no part number on the fuel pump, only a UL number, 574A, US patent numbers and the voltage 12v. The instillation instructions describe it as a “Solid State Electronic Fuel Pump”. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There were early reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carburetors, therefore I used 12v electric pump only before starting and emergencies.
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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Thanks for the information. The 4 minutes is the same time I had power on before the engine faltered then quit.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 5/23/2012 12:50 AM, Keith Palmer wrote: [quote]On Sunday I went up in a plane Cech factory built - with a 912S and had mentioned your problem to the owner so, he put the electic pump on for 15 seconds - turned it off - turned the fuel off at the selector - started, the oil temp came up in about 4 minutes then soon after the RPM started to die, turned fuel on - electic pump on - and we were away again, to the holding point for take off ??[b]
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w7ikt(at)fly-web.us
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: Trouble Shooting N912RV |
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No debris. I even cut a hole in the top of the tank near the fuel pick up to inspect the tank. No debris in the fuel filter either.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 5/23/2012 7:44 AM, David Weaver wrote: [quote] It would seem that the only way a Facett check valve ball could block fuel flow would involve a large enough foreign debris to jam a check valve ball in the seated position. Prior to the accident, were you seeing any signs of debris collecting in the firewall gas collator... like fuel tank coating etc? I am going to install a check valve in parallel with the Facett pump on my XP. I am not too keen on the idea of installing fuel filters on the output of all three fuel tanks. I inspect the ACS gas collator on a regular basis to determine the health of my fuel tanks. Thanks for sharing information regarding your unfortunate accident.
Dave Weaver
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