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Ernie Amadio
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 2
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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I have just experienced an unusual but potentialy dangerous incident with the filtered air box from Vans.It is instaled on my Starduster Too with an O-360 Lyc. The instal is as per the instructions and drawings that came with it including the fiberglass scoop.
On a short XC, at some point, the carb heat hose from the exhaust muff seperated from the flange on the hot air box, it lay on the top of the box pointed at the carb body less than 4 inches away, pumping hot air directly onto the carb.
On landing the engine was cutting out and barley made it off the run way before quitting. THE ENGINE REFUSED TO RESTART.
On investigation the hose was found seperated as described, and re-attached. After sitting for an hour with the cowls open into the wind, it started on the second blade and we were on owr way with no further problems.
Whether the hose clamp came loose on its own or I had failed to sufficiently tighten it I don't know ,however, it is now tight and saftey wired and routinley checked at every preflight.
For your information and consideration.
Ernie Amadio
RV-6 Slow build
[quote][b]
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wstucklen1(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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Another potential problem is the air filter wearing through the bottom of
the air box. Over time, the fiberglass will be weakened to the point where
the bottom of the air box falls out. I've had to re-fiberglass this area to
strengthen the air box....
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV Flying
RV-6A N926RV (Sold after 875 Hrs.)
RV-6A N925RV (Sold after 2008 Hrs.)
Time: 10:25:35 AM PST US
From: "Ernie Amadio" <eamadio(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re:Vans Filtered air box
I have just experienced an unusual but potentialy dangerous incident with
the filtered air box from Vans.It is instaled on my Starduster Too with an
O-360 Lyc. The instal is as per the instructions and drawings that came with
it including the fiberglass scoop.
On a short XC, at some point, the carb heat hose from the exhaust muff
seperated from the flange on the hot air box, it lay on the top of the box
pointed at the carb body less than 4 inches away, pumping hot air directly
onto the carb.
On landing the engine was cutting out and barley made it off the run way
before quitting. THE ENGINE REFUSED TO RESTART.
On investigation the hose was found seperated as described, and re-attached.
After sitting for an hour with the cowls open into the wind, it started on
the second blade and we were on owr way with no further problems.
Whether the hose clamp came loose on its own or I had failed to sufficiently
tighten it I don't know ,however, it is now tight and saftey wired and
routinley checked at every preflight.
For your information and consideration.
Ernie Amadio
RV-6 Slow build
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon Guest
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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I added a piece of .032 aluminum in the bottom of the airbox to solve the wear problem. The aluminum also makes the alternate air door fitting in the bottom (fuel injected engines) easier.
The other problem I had with the airbox is two top plates cracked at the mounting holes, the cracks going all the way to the edge. I fixed this problem by adding a .025 piece of aluminum angle between the forward most lower air box bolt and a bolt in the case of the engine. This vertical brace eliminates the airbox flexing problem.
Carl
On May 24, 2012, at 7:47 AM, "Fred Stucklen" <wstucklen1(at)cox.net> wrote:
Quote: |
Another potential problem is the air filter wearing through the bottom of
the air box. Over time, the fiberglass will be weakened to the point where
the bottom of the air box falls out. I've had to re-fiberglass this area to
strengthen the air box....
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV Flying
RV-6A N926RV (Sold after 875 Hrs.)
RV-6A N925RV (Sold after 2008 Hrs.)
Time: 10:25:35 AM PST US
From: "Ernie Amadio" <eamadio(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re:Vans Filtered air box
I have just experienced an unusual but potentialy dangerous incident with
the filtered air box from Vans.It is instaled on my Starduster Too with an
O-360 Lyc. The instal is as per the instructions and drawings that came with
it including the fiberglass scoop.
On a short XC, at some point, the carb heat hose from the exhaust muff
seperated from the flange on the hot air box, it lay on the top of the box
pointed at the carb body less than 4 inches away, pumping hot air directly
onto the carb.
On landing the engine was cutting out and barley made it off the run way
before quitting. THE ENGINE REFUSED TO RESTART.
On investigation the hose was found seperated as described, and re-attached.
After sitting for an hour with the cowls open into the wind, it started on
the second blade and we were on owr way with no further problems.
Whether the hose clamp came loose on its own or I had failed to sufficiently
tighten it I don't know ,however, it is now tight and saftey wired and
routinley checked at every preflight.
For your information and consideration.
Ernie Amadio
RV-6 Slow build
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
|
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Bob Collins
Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 470 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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Tom Berge and Doug Weiler report that switching to a cork gasket rather than
a paper one of between the upper plate on the servo/carb helps alleviate the
cracking problem.
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
To: "rv-list(at)matronics.com" <rv-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 12:18:44 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Re:Vans Filtered air box
I added a piece of .032 aluminum in the bottom of the airbox to solve the
wear problem. The aluminum also makes the alternate air door fitting in the
bottom (fuel injected engines) easier.
The other problem I had with the airbox is two top plates cracked at the
mounting holes, the cracks going all the way to the edge. I fixed this
problem by adding a .025 piece of aluminum angle between the forward most
lower air box bolt and a bolt in the case of the engine. This vertical
brace eliminates the airbox flexing problem.
Carl
On May 24, 2012, at 7:47 AM, "Fred Stucklen" <wstucklen1(at)cox.net> wrote:
Quote: |
Another potential problem is the air filter wearing through the bottom of
the air box. Over time, the fiberglass will be weakened to the point
where
|
Quote: | the bottom of the air box falls out. I've had to re-fiberglass this area
to
|
Quote: | strengthen the air box....
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV Flying
RV-6A N926RV (Sold after 875 Hrs.)
RV-6A N925RV (Sold after 2008 Hrs.)
Time: 10:25:35 AM PST US
From: "Ernie Amadio" <eamadio(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re:Vans Filtered air box
I have just experienced an unusual but potentialy dangerous incident with
the filtered air box from Vans.It is instaled on my Starduster Too with an
O-360 Lyc. The instal is as per the instructions and drawings that came
with
|
Quote: | it including the fiberglass scoop.
On a short XC, at some point, the carb heat hose from the exhaust muff
seperated from the flange on the hot air box, it lay on the top of the box
pointed at the carb body less than 4 inches away, pumping hot air directly
onto the carb.
On landing the engine was cutting out and barley made it off the run way
before quitting. THE ENGINE REFUSED TO RESTART.
On investigation the hose was found seperated as described, and
re-attached.
|
Quote: | After sitting for an hour with the cowls open into the wind, it started on
the second blade and we were on owr way with no further problems.
Whether the hose clamp came loose on its own or I had failed to
sufficiently
|
Quote: | tighten it I don't know ,however, it is now tight and saftey wired and
routinley checked at every preflight.
For your information and consideration.
Ernie Amadio
RV-6 Slow build
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
|
| - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________ Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/ |
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denis.walsh(at)comcast.ne Guest
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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Note: Please excuse the long post. I didn't have time to write a short one.
The FAB has fascinated me over the past 20 years. It seems to work really well. It is a "different" design so it has puzzled me at times. Here are some observations:
First there are different models which behave and wear differently. the O 320 one is deeper than the O 360 one, and is suspended differently. I have the O 360 one and have had no cracks? Most folks do get cracks over time, yet I have 2700+ on mine with none. One observation is that I added a plate to the bottom of my FAB to alleviate the rapid wear I was getting between the filter element and the fiberglass bottom. I speculate that this stiffened up the whole thing plus gave me a better seal for the filter.
Second observation is that the filters shrink! It seems that after a few years/hundreds of hours the filter element shrinks in all directions. I noticed it was no longer snug around the circumference and did not pull up tight against the top and bottom. My observation is that perhaps my tight seal for the FAB also reduced flexing and vibration?
Conclusions I have made:
Always check the FAB and clean/re-oil the filter each 100 hours. Inspect it carefully for cracks and looseness.
Put a plate in the bottom (O-360 model)
Replace the filter when it gets loose.
The bonus for this attention is cleaner air for your Lycoming. I am a superstitious fellow and think it is one of the most important factors if you want long engine life. I don't know that for sure. I am a novice at this, having only owned one Lycoming in my life, but it seems logical to me. As a footnote I should mention that on the first occasion of finding a loose filter I noted an increase in silicone on my oil analysis.
Denis Walsh
denis.walsh(at)comcast.net (denis.walsh(at)comcast.net)
On 24May, 2012, at 6:39 , bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net) wrote:
[quote]Tom Berge and Doug Weiler report that switching to a cork gasket rather than a paper one of between the upper plate on the servo/carb helps alleviate the cracking problem.
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
[quote]From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>
To: "rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)" <rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 12:18:44 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Re:Vans Filtered air box
--> RV-List message posted by: Carl Froehlich
I added a piece of .032 aluminum in the bottom of the airbox to solve the wear problem. The aluminum also makes the alternate air door fitting in the bottom (fuel injected engines) easier.
The other problem I had with the airbox is two top plates cracked at the mounting holes, the cracks going all the way to the edge. I fixed this problem by adding a .025 piece of aluminum angle between the forward most lower air box bolt and a bolt in the case of the engine. This vertical brace eliminates the airbox flexing problem.
Carl
On May 24, 2012, at 7:47 AM, "Fred Stucklen" wrote:
Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: "Fred Stucklen"
Another potential problem is the air filter wearing through the bottom of
the air box. Over time, the fiberglass will be weakened to the point where
the bottom of the air box falls out. I've had to re-fiberglass this area to
strengthen the air box....
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV Flying
RV-6A N926RV (Sold after 875 Hrs.)
RV-6A N925RV (Sold after 2008 Hrs.)
| [b]
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon Guest
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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I forgot to mention the shrinking filter issue. Over 10 years with the 8A I found the filter goes from an oval cylinder to an oval cone (the bottom becoming the smaller end of the cone). I suspect the clamping action is the issue. On the RV-10 I added four small pieces of aluminum (90 degree bend) to the bottom plate that fit the filter inside diameter. Hopefully this will help the filter keep it's shape a little longer.
For the RV-10 I also put in a larger filter. If you invert the plate so that the flange goes over the edge of the fiberglass it fits the taller K&N filter (model E-100 I think but not sure).
Carl
On May 24, 2012, at 9:12 AM, Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net (denis.walsh(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]Note: Please excuse the long post. I didn't have time to write a short one.
The FAB has fascinated me over the past 20 years. It seems to work really well. It is a "different" design so it has puzzled me at times. Here are some observations:
First there are different models which behave and wear differently. the O 320 one is deeper than the O 360 one, and is suspended differently. I have the O 360 one and have had no cracks? Most folks do get cracks over time, yet I have 2700+ on mine with none. One observation is that I added a plate to the bottom of my FAB to alleviate the rapid wear I was getting between the filter element and the fiberglass bottom. I speculate that this stiffened up the whole thing plus gave me a better seal for the filter.
Second observation is that the filters shrink! It seems that after a few years/hundreds of hours the filter element shrinks in all directions. I noticed it was no longer snug around the circumference and did not pull up tight against the top and bottom. My observation is that perhaps my tight seal for the FAB also reduced flexing and vibration?
Conclusions I have made:
Always check the FAB and clean/re-oil the filter each 100 hours. Inspect it carefully for cracks and looseness.
Put a plate in the bottom (O-360 model)
Replace the filter when it gets loose.
The bonus for this attention is cleaner air for your Lycoming. I am a superstitious fellow and think it is one of the most important factors if you want long engine life. I don't know that for sure. I am a novice at this, having only owned one Lycoming in my life, but it seems logical to me. As a footnote I should mention that on the first occasion of finding a loose filter I noted an increase in silicone on my oil analysis.
Denis Walsh
denis.walsh(at)comcast.net (denis.walsh(at)comcast.net)
On 24May, 2012, at 6:39 , bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net) wrote:
Quote: | Tom Berge and Doug Weiler report that switching to a cork gasket rather than a paper one of between the upper plate on the servo/carb helps alleviate the cracking problem.
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
Quote: | From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>
To: "rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)" <rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 12:18:44 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Re:Vans Filtered air box
--> RV-List message posted by: Carl Froehlich
I added a piece of .032 aluminum in the bottom of the airbox to solve the wear problem. The aluminum also makes the alternate air door fitting in the bottom (fuel injected engines) easier.
The other problem I had with the airbox is two top plates cracked at the mounting holes, the cracks going all the way to the edge. I fixed this problem by adding a .025 piece of aluminum angle between the forward most lower air box bolt and a bolt in the case of the engine. This vertical brace eliminates the airbox flexing problem.
Carl
On May 24, 2012, at 7:47 AM, "Fred Stucklen" wrote:
Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: "Fred Stucklen"
Another potential problem is the air filter wearing through the bottom of
the air box. Over time, the fiberglass will be weakened to the point where
the bottom of the air box falls out. I've had to re-fiberglass this area to
strengthen the air box....
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV Flying
RV-6A N926RV (Sold after 875 Hrs.)
RV-6A N925RV (Sold after 2008 Hrs.)
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Dale Ensing
Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 571 Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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Where do think the silicone is coming from...do you have some RTV sealant in or around the airbox that is coming loose and and being ingested?
Dale Ensing
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 9:12 AM, Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net (denis.walsh(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]Note: Please excuse the long post. I didn't have time to write a short one.
The FAB has fascinated me over the past 20 years. It seems to work really well. It is a "different" design so it has puzzled me at times. Here are some observations:
First there are different models which behave and wear differently. the O 320 one is deeper than the O 360 one, and is suspended differently. I have the O 360 one and have had no cracks? Most folks do get cracks over time, yet I have 2700+ on mine with none. One observation is that I added a plate to the bottom of my FAB to alleviate the rapid wear I was getting between the filter element and the fiberglass bottom. I speculate that this stiffened up the whole thing plus gave me a better seal for the filter.
Second observation is that the filters shrink! It seems that after a few years/hundreds of hours the filter element shrinks in all directions. I noticed it was no longer snug around the circumference and did not pull up tight against the top and bottom. My observation is that perhaps my tight seal for the FAB also reduced flexing and vibration?
Conclusions I have made:
Always check the FAB and clean/re-oil the filter each 100 hours. Inspect it carefully for cracks and looseness.
Put a plate in the bottom (O-360 model)
Replace the filter when it gets loose.
The bonus for this attention is cleaner air for your Lycoming. I am a superstitious fellow and think it is one of the most important factors if you want long engine life. I don't know that for sure. I am a novice at this, having only owned one Lycoming in my life, but it seems logical to me. As a footnote I should mention that on the first occasion of finding a loose filter I noted an increase in silicone on my oil analysis.
Denis Walsh
[url=mailto:denis.walsh(at)comcast.net]denis.walsh(at)comcast.net (denis.walsh(at)comcast.net)[/url]
On 24May, 2012, at 6:39 , [url=mailto:bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net]bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)[/url] wrote:
Quote: | Tom Berge and Doug Weiler report that switching to a cork gasket rather than a paper one of between the upper plate on the servo/carb helps alleviate the cracking problem.
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
Quote: | From: Carl Froehlich <[url=mailto:carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net]carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)[/url]>
To: "[url=mailto:rv-list(at)matronics.com]rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]" <[url=mailto:rv-list(at)matronics.com]rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]>
Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 12:18:44 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Re:Vans Filtered air box
--> RV-List message posted by: Carl Froehlich
I added a piece of .032 aluminum in the bottom of the airbox to solve the wear problem. The aluminum also makes the alternate air door fitting in the bottom (fuel injected engines) easier.
The other problem I had with the airbox is two top plates cracked at the mounting holes, the cracks going all the way to the edge. I fixed this problem by adding a .025 piece of aluminum angle between the forward most lower air box bolt and a bolt in the case of the engine. This vertical brace eliminates the airbox flexing problem.
Carl
On May 24, 2012, at 7:47 AM, "Fred Stucklen" wrote:
Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: "Fred Stucklen"
Another potential problem is the air filter wearing through the bottom of
the air box. Over time, the fiberglass will be weakened to the point where
the bottom of the air box falls out. I've had to re-fiberglass this area to
strengthen the air box....
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV Flying
RV-6A N926RV (Sold after 875 Hrs.)
RV-6A N925RV (Sold after 2008 Hrs.)
|
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ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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_________________ Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC |
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Neal.George(at)hurlburt.a Guest
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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I suspect that was a typo.
Silica is one of the elements reported in oil analysis. Silica accompanied by elevated wear metals can be an indicator of induction system issues - poor or inadequate filtration, induction leaks, contamination.
neal
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denis.walsh(at)comcast.ne Guest
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: Vans Filtered air box |
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I suspect it was a brain spasm of some sort! Thank you for the kind diagnosis. Neal is correct, I was wrong.
Whatever the right name for the substance is: it is lab speak for "dirt", thus it is an indicator of a leak or failure in your air filtration system, which Capt George described very well below. In my case there were no other elevated readings, so I was able to replace the filter quickly and have noted no signs of undue wear in the engine.
It is still showing good analysis, some years after that first loose filter, with good differential press check, etc, at 2,750 hrs(Tach). I feel pretty good about that and would like to think it is because I take such good care of it. It is more likely because I have always run it hard and frequently.
Denis Walsh (USAF, ret)
denis.walsh(at)comcast.net
On 24May, 2012, at 1:05 , George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ wrote:
Quote: |
I suspect that was a typo.
Silica is one of the elements reported in oil analysis. Silica accompanied by elevated wear metals can be an indicator of induction system issues - poor or inadequate filtration, induction leaks, contamination.
neal
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