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twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

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lmorgan100(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 4:13 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

Thanks everyone for answering my W+B questions, I have another question.

I am filling out the W + B paperwork for the airworthiness certificate, in

the specs for the Kolb Twinstar MK II, it says total weight limit is 750

LBS. mine comes in at 814 lbs with two 170 lb people and 10 gallons of gas.

what do I do with this ?

thanks

Lee..

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

If you are the manufacturer, you get to establish the MTOW. The KIT manufacturer makes recommendations but the builder(manufacturer of complete aircraft) has the last word. 



Even subsequent owners can change the MTOW of an experimental aircraft, with notification to FSDO and resuming phase 1 testing for some short period, in which you are supposed to verify that the aircraft is safe to fly at the new MTOW.



Anyone who has actually made this type of change, please correct me if I am wrong. I'm just relating what my FSDO told me when I asked the question.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jackinkeywest

Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 36
Location: Key West, FL

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

Hi Lee,



I may be about to 'stir up a hornet's nest' here but I think it's a risk worth taking in order to answer your question.



The kit manufacturer (Kolb Aircraft, Inc) sets the RECOMMENDED max gross/allowable weight for each model aircraft kit they produce.  YOU, as the manufacturer/builder of said kit can set the max gross/allowable weight of YOUR aircraft to whatever weight you feel comfortable with.  



Kolb recommends 750 lbs as the max weight.  This is a limit they RECOMMEND and with that comes many variables (engineering calculations, liability concerns, etc.).  That said, there is NOTHING to stop YOU from making your max weight limit on YOUR aircraft 800, 825, 850 or even 1000 LBS!   What do YOU feel comfortable with knowing what the factory recommends?



If it were my aircraft and I built it per the plans without deviation, I would not hesitate to increase the max gross weight to 850 lbs given that most manufacturers use a 10-15% margin of error/caution in their favor mostly for liability reasons.



Let the firestorm begin....



Jack in Key West



--

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: Re: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

 	  lmorgan100(at)charter.net wrote: 	
		  Thanks everyone for answering my W+B questions, I have another question.

I am filling out the W + B paperwork for the airworthiness certificate, in

the specs for the Kolb Twinstar MK II, it says total weight limit is 750

LBS. mine comes in at 814 lbs with two 170 lb people and 10 gallons of gas.

what do I do with this ?

thanks

Lee.. 	




Lee,

My Mark II would also weigh that much with those specs.  On my W&B I put that I have a max weight of 800lbs.  On the Most Aft Loading I use 170lb pilot and 10 gallons of gas, on the Most Fwd Loading section I use 170lb pilot, 170lb passenger but less than 10 gallons to make it under the 800lb limit, then on the Flight Test Loading I put 195lb pilot and 6 gallons of fuel.



I have flown it with at least, if not a little more than, 850 lbs though and had no issues.



There should be a place on your W&B that says whether you got the data from the manufacturer or from your own data.  You can put that you got it from your own data and as long as you test it out during your testing period, the kit manufacturer's weight limit does not come into the picture (as Jack and Thom also mentioned).

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:44 pm Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

Lee

I'm not a big fan of betting that the factory is wrong on the weight limits. There are a lot of factors involved here. Do you know how well the plane was built? As a plane gets older some of the metal parts may fatigue and loose strength. Flying heavy and in rough air can increase the rate of fatigue. Some times corrosion can weaken parts. My plane spent six months in Florida. I couldn't believe how much corrosion developed in that salt air and it was hangered. Your MKII is a older model with a weaker air frame than the MKIII so don't confuse the weight limits set for the MKIII. You also have to use common sense that if you exceed the recommended limits you should only do it in calm air.

Yes you have the right to set the weight limits as you see fit. Just be sure, if you choose to fly much beyond the recommended limit, leave a record of what you did with someone on the ground so we can learn what the absolute limit was. 

Again worth what you paid for it.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:28 PM, cristalclear13 <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com (cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "cristalclear13" <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com (cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com)>

 lmorgan100(at)charter.net wrote:

 > Thanks everyone for answering my W+B questions, I have another question.

 > I am filling out the W + B paperwork for the airworthiness certificate, in

 > the specs for the Kolb Twinstar MK II, it says total weight limit is 750

 > LBS. mine comes in at 814 lbs with two 170 lb people and 10 gallons of gas.

 > what do I do with this ?

 > thanks

 > Lee..

 Lee,

 My Mark II would also weigh that much with those specs.  On my W&B I put that I have a max weight of 800lbs.  On the Most Aft Loading I use 170lb pilot and 10 gallons of gas, on the Most Fwd Loading section I use 170lb pilot, 170lb passenger but less than 10 gallons to make it under the 800lb limit, then on the Flight Test Loading I put 195lb pilot and 6 gallons of fuel.

 I have flown it with at least, if not a little more than, 850 lbs though and had no issues.

 There should be a place on your W&B that says whether you got the data from the manufacturer or from your own data.  You can put that you got it from your own data and as long as you test it out during your testing period, the kit manufacturer's weight limit does not come into the picture (as Jack and Thom also mentioned).

 --------

 Cristal Waters

 Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI  Sept 2007

 Private Pilot Aug 2008

 ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008

 Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374200#374200

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

I'm not a big fan of betting that the factory is wrong on the weight  limits>>

  

 Hi,

 I guess that in view of the litigious nature  of  American Society you all carry insurance.

 What does the insurer say about flying outside the  manufacturers limits? I would have expected them to use that as a reason for not  paying out on a claim.

  

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

What does the insurer say about flying outside the manufacturers limits? I

would have expected them to use that as a reason for not paying out on a

claim.

 

Pat

 

The builder is the manufacturer.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

The builder is the manufacturer.>>



Hi John,



Hmmm.  I would have thought that only pushes the liability back one step.



What is the situation if the manufacturer, or the builder as manufacturer 

produces a plane which is obviously not airworthy. How do you get insurance? 

Does the insurance company not apply any yardstick at all? How do they know 

without inspection or testing if it will fly well, badly, or at all? I 

understand that unlike the UK there is no such thing as an approved design 

in the US. Who applies what standards in that case?



Curious



Pat

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:47 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

What is the situation if the manufacturer, or the builder as manufacturer

produces a plane which is obviously not airworthy. How do you get insurance?



Does the insurance company not apply any yardstick at all? How do they know

without inspection or testing if it will fly well, badly, or at all? I

understand that unlike the UK there is no such thing as an approved design

in the US. Who applies what standards in that case?



Curious



Pat

 

Patrick L/Gang:



In the amateur experimental/homebuilt class we must have our aircraft

inspected and issued an "airworthiness certificate", in addition to a 40

test flight period.



"How do I get insurance?"  Obviously, I pay through the nose for it.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

phactor9

Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

Speaking of insurance...

  

 1. Who uses what insurance company?

 2. What type of insurance do you subscribe to, or recommend?

 3. What class bird? FAR-103? Other?

  

 Phil H.

 FF11-4-00076

 



--- On Wed, 5/30/12, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Subject: RE: Re: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2012, 3:44 PM



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>





What is the situation if the manufacturer, or the builder as manufacturer

produces a plane which is obviously not airworthy. How do you get insurance?



Does the insurance company not apply any yardstick at all? How do they know

without inspection or testing if it will fly well, badly, or at all? I

understand that unlike the UK there is no such thing as an approved design

in the US. Who applies what standards in that case?



Curious



Pat



Patrick L/Gang:



In the amateur experimental/homebuilt class we must have our aircraft

inspected and issued an "airworthiness certificate", in addition to a 40

test flight period.



"How do I get insurance?"  Obviously, I  pay through the nose for it.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





	
 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:16 pm Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

1. Who uses what insurance company?

2. What type of insurance do you subscribe to, or recommend?

3. What class bird? FAR-103? Other?

 

Phil H.

 

Phil H/Gang:



1.  Falcon, indorsed by EAA.



2.  Hull, moving and stationary.  Enough to replace my airplane should I

total it.  Plus, 1,000,000.00 liability.



3.  Experimental/homebuilt.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

PatI think it's safe to say we all TRY to carry insurance. But I'm also sure the ins co's in the UK are similar to ours here in the Colonies -- their attitude is to reject claims if at all possible, on most any excuse, then say "Thanks for the premiums, have a nice day, goodbye"

Russ





On May 30, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Pat Ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm not a big fan of betting that the factory is wrong on the weight limits>>

 

Hi,

I guess that in view of the litigious nature of  American Society you all carry insurance.

What does the insurer say about flying outside the manufacturers limits? I would have expected them to use that as a reason for not paying out on a claim.

 

 

Cheers

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


 [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

I carry liability and "not-in-flight" hull insurance which covers damage or loss to my Slingshot while on the ground except during take-off and landing. I have a policy with Global Aerospace which was obtained through EAA insurance affiliate, Falcon Insurance. Not paying for in-flight hull insurance saves me about $500-600/year. I figure if I crash it in flight the airplane repairs will be the least of my problems.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  The builder is the manufacturer.>>



<snip>

What is the situation if the manufacturer, or the builder as manufacturer 

produces a plane which is obviously not airworthy. How do you get insurance? 

Does the insurance company not apply any yardstick at all? How do they know without inspection or testing if it will fly well, badly, or at all? I 

understand that unlike the UK there is no such thing as an approved design 

in the US. Who applies what standards in that case?

Curious

Pat 	




Years ago I talked to a FAA man in that department about how they went about determining how to issue an Airworthiness Certificate to a problematic design. His answer was to the effect that you can design anything you want, but then you have to build it according to approved methods and practices. Assuming you build it well, but it is still a problematic design, he said they can issue you an Airworthiness Certificate with limitations that precludes you flying it more than 2' off the ground, or anywhere other than immediately above the runway. 



In other words, if they don't think it will fly, they can restrict your flying to a minimum.



Never seen such a situation, but it makes sense to me -

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:56 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

limitations that precludes you flying it more than 2' off the ground, or 

anywhere other than immediately above the runway. >>

Yeah! I guess that would do it as far as the Airworthiness Cert is concerned 

but would any insurance company touch it?



You may roll it into a ball from 2 feet but suppose you flew it into a crowd 

of people or parked aircraft at 2 feet.



Pat.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

Hi Thom,



obviously you can get insurance flying a Kolb as you can point to a well 

tried design and the Insurers can asses the risk from their records.  What 

happens if you put a jet engine on it, turn it into a twin, redesign and fit 

a twin fin and rudder.? Even if you are the manufacturer and can set what 

parameters you like you may have no aerodesign  or engineering skill 

whatever. I would have thought the insurers wouldn`t touch it with a barge 

pole. Then you fly it into someone, or their plane. . You could be in Sing 

Sing for the rest of your natural. Certainly in Bankruptcy Court.

Shudder!



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:36 am Post subject: twinstar MK II thanks and another endless question

their attitude is to reject claims if at all possible>>

  

 Hi Russ,

  

 I am sure that is true but speak as I find. When I  flew into the barn through starting the engine when the throttle was open the  insurance Company sent an assessor .It was obvious that the starboard wing had  to be rebuilt. There was some discussion over possible twisting of the cage due  to the backwards movement of the wing. This was decided in consultation with the  Inspector and the cage was condemned. This meant a total strip of instruments  etc and rebuild of the whole front end. Including the car I managed to drive the  nose cone into I think that the bill was in excess of 20,000 pounds. The  insurers paid up with no quibble.

  

 On the other hand my partner, when we had the  Aerostar, was always worried because if the two of us took off with a full fuel  load we were above the certified weight. The  problem was not that the plane wouldn`t handle it but because if we took off  overweight we were no longer classed as a `microlight` and we were into a whole  new ballgame. We were a Light Aircraft and therefore outside our insured  category

 He was afraid that if we crunched it was a fairly  simple matter to back calculate what our take off weight had been and that would  be used to let the insurers of the hook.

  

 Incidentally I employed a couple of guys from the  local carwash to wash my plane yesterday. Just to smarten it up before the  prospective buyers start lining up to view it.

 There are hundreds of  teams of men all over  the UK who have moved into disused garage sites and set up car washes. Of  course the garages had sumps already built to in to stop oil and muck going down  the drains. Electricity and water were laid on. Just waiting for someone to find  a use for them. These guys are usually Polish. I know one lot who are  Lithuanians and the guys I used are, would you believe it from  Iraq.

 They all do a fast and reasonably priced job.It is  not easy as they are in the cold and wet all day, usually no resting facilities  or shelter if it pours. I am sure the income tax is being wangled as no one  knows how much money they take in a day.. Probably all sorts of `elf and safety  issues being ignored as well.

 We have  several million unemployed in the UK  but I have not found a team of car washers who are English. Makes you  think.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

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