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jh(at)gulftel.com
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 Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/22/12 |
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Good Morning,
Re the gascolator on my 3300 engine. I never see more than a tablespoon or two drain when I tap my gascolator at preflight. By contrast, my Cessna would truly flow out. Please advise what I should expect as well as the proper interval to clean.
Many thanks,,,
Jim Henderson N910CJ in AL.
On Jun 23, 2012, at 2:00 AM, JabiruEngine-List Digest Server wrote:
| Quote: | *
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JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 06/22/12: 3
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (FLYaDIVE)
2. 06:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (Pete Krotje)
3. 08:26 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (FLYaDIVE)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 04:29:17 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Bobby:
Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a few
chemical changes and can clog up a system.
SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow of
fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fuel
line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
fuel flow.
Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
- Get a glass jar
- Remove the screen
- Fill the jar with MEK
- Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
- Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
- SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think you
would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.
You have a job ahead of you.
Barry
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> wrote:
> List
> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of
> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and
> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless steel
> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was about
> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect on.
> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from the
> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen as
> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
> clean.
> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
> tanks and then test flew.
> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year.
> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh
> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if
> it returns.
>
> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 06:29:28 AM PST US
From: "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
Subject: RE: Fuel Pressure
Bobby,
What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times now in
fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There seems
to be a stringy, mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas that
eventually winds up in filters, gascolators and carburetors. In two of the
cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
evaluation we found this similar sticky, slimy substance in the carb which
prevented proper functioning of the slide.
At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room who
told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separate
out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don't know if that is true or not.
We've seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the internals
were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and smelled like
caramelized sugar. We've seen other aircraft where even non ethanol gas was
dissolving the tank sealant.
At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I tested a
sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unaware
and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was added at
the terminal.
The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensing
(the pump) is poorly controlled. Also, the effect of auto gas (with today's
ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not been
extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my opinion
to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very large
sample of properly collected data. I've just seen the aftermath of some of
the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure
Bobby:
Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a few
chemical changes and can clog up a system.
SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow of
fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fuel
line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
fuel flow.
Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
* Get a glass jar
* Remove the screen
* Fill the jar with MEK
* Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
* Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
* SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK WILL DESTROY
THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think you
would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.
You have a job ahead of you.
Barry
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> wrote:
List
Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of
the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the gascolator
it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but nothing that I
could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit particles that I
picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and screen and got
fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the gascolator. I wondered why
it did not drain back thru the stainless steel screen. I looked carefully at
the screen in daylight and saw it was about 80% blocked with a transparent
goop that a degreaser had little effect on. I cleaned it further with soap
and water but finally blew it back from the direction of flow and could see
small particles flying off the screen as the air nozzle hit it. I continued
all around the screen until it was clean.
I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
tanks and then test flew.
My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that had
been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year. I saw
the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh
fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually coat
the fine strainer in the gascolator.
I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if
it returns.
Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 154 hrs.
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 08:26:31 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Very interesting Pete:
I did not think of the bacterial growth issue. I know that kerosene has a
bacterial growth and there is an additive you can purchase at places like
Home Depot to kill the bacteria. I wonder if it will work with MoGas?
Something else to consider... What will be happening to our cars when the
EPA and obama increase the level of ethanol to 15 and 20% in the next five
years?
Barry
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:
> Bobby,****
>
> ** **
>
> What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times now
> in fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There
> seems to be a stringy, mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas th
at
> eventually winds up in filters, gascolators and carburetors. In two of t
he
> cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
> evaluation we found this similar sticky, slimy substance in the carb whic
h
> prevented proper functioning of the slide.****
>
> ** **
>
> At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room
> who told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
> boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separate
> out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don=92t know if that is true or not.
***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> We=92ve seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the
> internals were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and
> smelled like caramelized sugar. We=92ve seen other aircraft where even n
on
> ethanol gas was dissolving the tank sealant.****
>
> ** **
>
> At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I teste
d
> a sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
> ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unawar
e
> and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was added
> at the terminal. ****
>
> ** **
>
> The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensing
> (the pump) is poorly controlled. Also, the effect of auto gas (with
> today=92s ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not
> been extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my
> opinion to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very
> large sample of properly collected data. I=92ve just seen the aftermath
of
> some of the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.****
>
> ** **
>
> Pete****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2012 6:28 AM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Fuel Pressure****
>
> ** **
>
> Bobby:****
>
> ** **
>
> Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop. ****
>
> Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)? ****
>
> Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?****
>
> How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a fe
w
> chemical changes and can clog up a system.****
>
> SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
> suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow
of
> fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
> you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fu
el
> line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
> fuel flow.****
>
> ** **
>
> Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK. ****
>
> - Get a glass jar****
> - Remove the screen****
> - Fill the jar with MEK****
> - Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes****
> - Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out****
> - SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
> WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN****
>
> Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think yo
u
> would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.***
*
>
> ** **
>
> I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
> have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.****
>
> ** **
>
> You have a job ahead of you. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Barry****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net> wrote:****
>
> List
> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out
of
> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket an
d
> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless steel
> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was about
> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect on
..
> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from th
e
> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen as
> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
> clean.
> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
> tanks and then test flew.
> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year
..
> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fres
h
> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see i
f
> it returns.
>
> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>
> ****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
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