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jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: Engine failure

I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.



Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  



The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.



The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.



My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  



Thanks,

Jim Stone

502 235-3599



Sent from my iPad

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:14 am Post subject: Engine failure

Jim:



I don't think you have a case, Mr. Stone.

The KS bearing is an experimental bearing - An automotive bearing - That you chose to use in an aviation engine.

The Oil Analysis - Which I feel is a total wast of time, money and energy - Might have shown that there was a problem, but human nature always overrules facts.  And you did nothing with information/facts supplied well in advance of the engine failure.  No oil analysis can tell you when you will have a failure all they report are the current facts. 

 Point of Fact: ALL Oil Analysis reports always have a C.Y.A. for the shop in that 'More testing is required".  They leave the judgement call up to you.

 

Sorry Mr. Stone, but the judges ruling is insufficient information to justify a case.  

 Next case!

Barry

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com (jrstone(at)insightbb.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> LycomingEngines-List message posted by: Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com (jrstone(at)insightbb.com)>

  

 I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

  

 Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.

 

 The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

  

 The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.

 Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

  If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

 

 My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.

 

 Thanks,

 Jim Stone

 [url=tel:502%20235-3599]502 235-3599[/url]

 

 

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

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 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: Engine failure

Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something behind the failure. 

We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance to crank shaft checked on assembly?

Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on. 

I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did. What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes. 

In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your bearing. 

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or yourself.



Tim

Sent from my iPad



On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

 

 Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  

 

 The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

 

 The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

 Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

 If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

 

 My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  

 

 Thanks,

 Jim Stone

 502 235-3599

 

 

 

 Sent from my iPad

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: Engine failure

Glad you are OK, Jim. 



--

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:49 am Post subject: Engine failure

Hey Tim,

Apparently rod bearings can "just fail" and have.  The failure mode is a separation of the metals or de-lamination.  I know of at least one law suit that was settled confidentially.

All parts were yellow tagged, replaced with new and the engine assembled with great care by a career engine mechanic in a small shop.  I think it was the bearing because a well know engine shop has experienced a similar failure on an engine he built,and asked if I had KS bearing.  I do have pics if anyone would like to see them.  

Tim you sound very experienced, would you be interested in seeing the pics?

Jim

On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Tim Andres wrote:






Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something behind the failure. 

We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance to crank shaft checked on assembly?

Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on. 

I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did. What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes. 

In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your bearing. 

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or yourself.



Tim

Sent from my iPad



On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

 

 Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  

 

 The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

 

 The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

 Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

 If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

 

 My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  

 

 Thanks,

 Jim Stone

 502 235-3599

 

 

 

 Sent from my iPad

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: Engine failure

Hi Jim

Id like to see the pics, probably should send them direct to me tough as I'm not sure the list supports it. I don't think Im the expert your looking for to give a definitive answer as to what failed, a good metallurgist would be better. I've seen a several rod failures (not Lycoming) that we had to dig into to find a cause.

If you can, get some shots of the other rod bearings from the engine. If it was something like oil starvation or debris you will see damage occurring there also, or if they look good that also tells you something and narrows it down to fewer possibilities. Although its possible they have oil starvation damage that occurred after the case was punctured, depending on how long the engine ran.

What was the reason for using the HS bearing? That is, what is gained over using a PMA part? Like I said I'm not familiar with it, and I have never seen a bearing just fail that didn't have an underlying cause. 

Tim

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:45 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hey Tim,

 Apparently rod bearings can "just fail" and have.  The failure mode is a separation of the metals or de-lamination.  I know of at least one law suit that was settled confidentially.

 All parts were yellow tagged, replaced with new and the engine assembled with great care by a career engine mechanic in a small shop.  I think it was the bearing because a well know engine shop has experienced a similar failure on an engine he built,and asked if I had KS bearing.  I do have pics if anyone would like to see them.  

 Tim you sound very experienced, would you be interested in seeing the pics?

 Jim

 On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Tim Andres wrote:

 Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something behind the failure. 

 We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance to crank shaft checked on assembly?

 Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on. 

 I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did. What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes. 

 In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your bearing. 

 Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or yourself.

 Tim

 Sent from my iPad

 On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

> 

> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  

> 

> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

> 

> The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

> 

> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  

> 

> Thanks,

> Jim Stone

> 502 235-3599

> 

> 

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

> 

> 

>

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: Engine failure

Barry,

What makes you think the KS bearing is experimental?

I did not choose the bearing as you stated my overhaul shop did. 

 As I understand the history, KS bearings were used as a replacement 

for the normal bearing manufacturer while the factory was closed for 

relocation.  All or most engines that were rebuilt during that time period 

used them, mine included.

Do u have knowledge to contrary?

"Sorry Mr. Stone, but the judges ruling is insufficient information to justify a case.  

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Next case!".   

Say what?  I did not ask for your sarcastic judgmental uninformed 
	


opinion Your Honor.

I'm searching for factual information to help me determine if I have a 

case.  Please, just the facts.

Jim

Sent from my iPad



On 

Jun 30, 2012, at 9:12 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:



[quote] Jim:

 

 I don't think you have a case, Mr. Stone.

 The KS bearing is an experimental bearing - An automotive bearing - That you chose to use in an aviation engine.

 The Oil Analysis - Which I feel is a total wast of time, money and energy - Might have shown that there was a problem, but human nature always overrules facts.  And you did nothing with information/facts supplied well in advance of the engine failure.  No oil analysis can tell you when you will have a failure all they report are the current facts. 

 Point of Fact: ALL Oil Analysis reports always have a C.Y.A. for the shop in that 'More testing is required".  They leave the judgement call up to you.

  

 Sorry Mr. Stone, but the judges ruling is insufficient information to justify a case.  

 Next case!

 

 Barry

 

 

 On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

 

 

 I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

 

 Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.

 

 The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: Engine failure

Good points Tim, it may be very hard to isolate the exact cause.  If I can get the right set of eyeballs on my engine parts, I might just be able to determine the cause.  

Thanks,

Jim

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something behind the failure. 

 We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance to crank shaft checked on assembly?

 Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on. 

 I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did. What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes. 

 In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your bearing. 

 Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or yourself.

 Tim

 Sent from my iPad

 On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

> 

> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  

> 

> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

> 

> The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

> 

> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  

> 

> Thanks,

> Jim Stone

> 502 235-3599

> 

> 

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

> 

> 

>

jrstone(at)insightbb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: Engine failure

Hi Tim,

My instructions to the engine builder was to build me a certified engine using all required guidelines and PMA parts.  I believe the KS bearing is a PMA bearing that was a legal substitute for the normal supplier during a factory relocation. 

Jim



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 1, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Jim

 Id like to see the pics, probably should send them direct to me tough as I'm not sure the list supports it. I don't think Im the expert your looking for to give a definitive answer as to what failed, a good metallurgist would be better. I've seen a several rod failures (not Lycoming) that we had to dig into to find a cause.

 If you can, get some shots of the other rod bearings from the engine. If it was something like oil starvation or debris you will see damage occurring there also, or if they look good that also tells you something and narrows it down to fewer possibilities. Although its possible they have oil starvation damage that occurred after the case was punctured, depending on how long the engine ran.

 What was the reason for using the HS bearing? That is, what is gained over using a PMA part? Like I said I'm not familiar with it, and I have never seen a bearing just fail that didn't have an underlying cause. 

 Tim

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

 On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:45 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Hey Tim,

> Apparently rod bearings can "just fail" and have.  The failure mode is a separation of the metals or de-lamination.  I know of at least one law suit that was settled confidentially.

> All parts were yellow tagged, replaced with new and the engine assembled with great care by a career engine mechanic in a small shop.  I think it was the bearing because a well know engine shop has experienced a similar failure on an engine he built,and asked if I had KS bearing.  I do have pics if anyone would like to see them.  

> Tim you sound very experienced, would you be interested in seeing the pics?

> Jim

> On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Tim Andres wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something behind the failure. 

> We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance to crank shaft checked on assembly?

> Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on. 

> I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did. What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes. 

> In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your bearing. 

> Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or yourself.

> 

> Tim

> 

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

> On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

> 

>> 

>> 

>> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

>> 

>> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  

>> 

>> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

>> 

>> The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

>> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

>> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

>> 

>> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  

>> 

>> Thanks,

>> Jim Stone

>> 502 235-3599

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Sent from my iPad

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:14 pm Post subject: Engine failure

Here a link that may be helpful. Lots more from a google search of "engine bearing failure analysis". 

http://www.nb-cofrisa.com/docs/web_fallos_ing.PDF

Problem is, it sounds like the failed rod separated and you may not have much left to look at.

Don't overlook detonation as a possibility, it's been known to hammer bearings out.

Good luck on it, Tim



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 1, 2012, at 7:26 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Good points Tim, it may be very hard to isolate the exact cause.  If I can get the right set of eyeballs on my engine parts, I might just be able to determine the cause.  

 Thanks,

 Jim

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

 On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something behind the failure. 

> We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance to crank shaft checked on assembly?

> Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on. 

> I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did. What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes. 

> In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your bearing. 

> Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or yourself.

> 

> Tim

> 

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

> On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> wrote:

> 

>> 

>> 

>> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the failure.  I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.

>> 

>> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.  My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.  

>> 

>> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.

>> 

>> The engine seized just after touchdown.  The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.  

>> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.  I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.

>> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or email me.

>> 

>> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.  

>> 

>> Thanks,

>> Jim Stone

>> 502 235-3599

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Sent from my iPad

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

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