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Stall/spin

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jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:28 am Post subject: Stall/spin

David-



Excellent article.  I really enjoyed it.  THANKS!



Jim Puglise

N283JL



From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

To: "europa list" <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 5:43:54 AM

Subject: Stall/spin

Dear All, Rather at the last moment, it has occurred to me 

that it is only right & proper to show you the article I 

have written & had accepted by Brian Hope, since the 

Europa gets a degree of slightly dubious star billing. I 

hope you will feel that the overall flavour does not do 

anything to cast doubts about the flying qualities of our 

planes, particulaly if 'made in UK' Regards, David



 [quote][b]

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:23 am Post subject: Stall/spin

Me too, well done David.

Kevin



On Jul 7, 2012, at 9:25 AM, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net (jimpuglise(at)comcast.net) wrote:



[quote]David-



Excellent article.  I really enjoyed it.  THANKS!



Jim Puglise

N283JL



From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

To: "europa list" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 5:43:54 AM

Subject: Europa-List: Stall/spin

Dear All, Rather at the last moment, it has occurred to me 

that it is only right & proper to show you the article I 

have written & had accepted by Brian Hope, since the 

Europa gets a degree of slightly dubious star billing. I 

hope you will feel that the overall flavour does not do 

anything to cast doubts about the flying qualities of our 

planes, particulaly if 'made in UK' Regards, David



  	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: Stall/spin

David Joyce wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I hope you will feel that the overall flavour does not do anything to cast doubts about the flying qualities of our planes, particulaly if 'made in UK' 	




Excellent David...thanks for sharing your expertise...though I confess I stumbled over a couple of your UK colloquialisms...

I reckon I've spent funds on unanticipated expenses and delayed first flight of my Ms. Europa for mods and accessories of FAR less import than those required for installing the SmartAss...

I guess I can get past my resistance to setting up yet another situation where I find a woman giving me advice.

Fred



 [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: Stall/spin

Good stuff, well written, couple of words missing here and there.



Can I get one with the queens voice "we are not amused your speed is too

low" 



--

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: Stall/spin

David,

Very good article, well done.

As an airline pilot we do not have to sit the biannual flight check on the Europa, as it is taken care by our Airline Transport Pilots Licence and the 6 monthly( 2 x simulator checks (8hrs!)) check we do. This lends to  false 'sense of confidence' when flying the lighter aircraft and therefore each year I take my bird up to go through all the unusual attitude excercises. Check myself, and teach my son.

Well worth it, great fun, and re confirms ones own confidence in the Europa.

I installed the Europa company stall warning however the voice response is a good alternative, particularly a ladies voice as we have all learnt to take notice!



Cheers,



Tim

Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

On 8/07/2012, at 10:50 AM, "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Good stuff, well written, couple of words missing here and there.

 

 Can I get one with the queens voice "we are not amused your speed is too

 low" 

 

 --

milneab(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: Stall/spin

An interesting article, informative and I look forward to seeing it 

published.  The eEuropa is not slagged off and you need not worry on that 

account but I think para 2 has suffered some inadvertent editing as it has 

some non sequiteurs at present



--

milneab(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: Stall/spin

Dear David,



Good article and I have no problem about your basing it around the Europa, 

but I think the para (2) 'Experience is no protection' has suffered some 

inadvertent editing and has a few non-sequiteurs in it at present.

I look forward to seeing it in proper print.



Alasdair



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: Stall/spin

Aliased air, (that is how my iPad re-interprets your name! 

The affrontery of the ex colonials!) I agree that 

paragraph doesn't read especially smoothly, but it all 

sequiturs! Student solo pilots & Atpls have low risk; 

PPLs, CPLs & students with instructors have high risks - 

all well documented in the studies sited.

Regards, David

On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 09:04:49 +0100

  "Alasdair Milne" <milneab(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

[quote] 

<milneab(at)btinternet.com>

 

 Dear David,

 

 Good article and I have no problem about your basing it 

around the Europa, but I think the para (2) 'Experience 

is no protection' has suffered some inadvertent editing 

and has a few non-sequiteurs in it at present.

 I look forward to seeing it in proper print.

 

 Alasdair

 

 --

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Stall/spin

Hi David,

I cannot read your article. Could you please resend it in another format?

Regards

Remi

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: Stall/spin

Remi,



I fell into the same trap. Don't download, just click on the 'Read Online' option.

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Stall/spin

 From: air.guerner(at)orange.fr

 Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 04:16:41 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 

 Hi David,

 I cannot read your article. Could you please resend it in another format?

 Regards

 Remi

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377609#377609

 

 

 

 Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
	


&gt========================

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: Stall/spin

Remi, Herewith in PDF David



On Sun,  8 Jul 2012 04:16:41 -0700

  "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 

 Hi David,

 I cannot read your article. Could you please resend it 

in another format?

 Regards

 Remi

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377609#377609

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

Stall_spin.pdf

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: Stall/spin

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  David,

 A sticky subject to say the least.

  

 I whole heartedly agree with your points...Warning systems are great, but  practice makes perfect.

  

 Train like you fly, fly like you train is the pilot motto we instilled in  our military training crews.

  

 Just emphasizing your points:

  

 This means going up three mistakes high and practicing maneuvers, better  yet, with an experienced pilot or even better yet with an experienced instructor  on your proficiency check rides.  My preference is that you take your  aircraft and you, to the edge of the envelope, in slow flight maneuvering,  stall feel, accelerated stall, deep stall, turning stalls both clean and dirty,  simulated engine out approaches, loaded (level turn) and unloaded  turns (max turn rate with alt loss),  unusual attitude recoveries such  as:  nose low and nose high recovery techniques, min altitude loss  maneuvers (aka high and low speed dive recoveries).  Since some aircraft  will snap inverted in a deep stall or aggressively acted stall, how to recover  means getting help on how to recover from inverted flight in this case.  I  can tell you that keeping the plane loaded up (positive G) while trying to roll  back is not the answer.

  

 Today in the US we only teach approach to the stall and our patterns or  circuits are cross country excursions.  Spin training is non  existent.  Our pilots don't look out the window and understand the concept  that your eyes fly the plane where it is supposed to go.  All of which is a  disaster waiting to happen.  All aircraft, Cessna 150-152, Pipers,  Diamonds, and all experimentals can be put into a post stall snap or stall spin  quite easily.  I even demonstrated that in an Ercoupe.  Our FAA has  decided to go conservative. My FAA FSDO (Flight Standards Duty Officer) knows on  test flights I max perform the aircraft looking for flaws, but does not like to  see this type maneuvering I practice as it could become a disaster for an  inexperienced pilot if he were to attempt to copy what he has seen rather than  practicing in a controlled environment to gain proficiency in baby steps under  direct supervision.  And he is right.

  

 The recognition of a stall is important.  But the concept of the  proper or min altitude recovery is often taught as a mechanical  action by our new instructors and rarely practiced later...  I  routinely fly with owners and others who smack the stick forward, hit full power  and gently recover losing significant altitude.  They commonly misjudge the  engine out glide distance or partial power flight operations.  Stall  warning equipment, AOA systems alert you of a high angle of  attack situation via some warning (Bitching Betty we called them).   Aerodynamic feel such as stall strips (rumble strips) give us a feel/sound that  is a stall warning.  That is great provided we are not distracted by  the rough or dead engine in front of us and the overwhelming feeling to try to  save the aircraft from harm...  If you don't practice these type of  situations and chair fly the situations based on your observations, then you  will have a disaster rather than a war story.  (Chair fly is a concept that  once a maneuver is practiced or tested, such as an engine out glide  maneuver at altitude, it is then translated to sitting in a quiet area and  mentally (or animated via body language and voice) flying the maneuver how you  believe it should be flown in an inflight emergency.)  Once the  knowledge hits the pilot that from my position (and experience) I can't  make the airport, I must commit to a forced landing to save my life and fill out  the insurance paperwork.

  

 Put the Europa at 4000 rpm and 17 inches of power and see how far you can  go.  What is the minimum power I can fly with.  I have shut the engine  down and done 360s well above the airfield (pre-arranged with the airport) and  checked the glide distance, min sink, altitude loss in 30/60/max bank unloaded  turns.  30 degree coordinated turns at idle loose nearly 700 feet in 180  degrees of turn, clean.  That's a lot of altitude.  If you  attempt to get back to the field with an engine at idle, you won't make it  unless you plan and fly your approach accordingly.  A simple exercise is  to practice pulling the power back to idle at various points in the  pattern, and soon you develop a picture of where you need to be, to fly a safe  engine out pattern based on your position (altitude and airspeed  included) in the pattern.  Once you have the picture, one can make  sound decisions.

  

 Further, with the mono, lowering the gear (and flaps) when landing is  assured in an engine emergency must be practiced as the glide ratio and picture  change is pretty large.

 A few years ago, a mono wheel pilot had a fuel pressure regulator failure,  and could not get above 26 inches and 4600 RPM.  He still was in takeoff  configuration with gear down and was sinking.  I was airborne and heard his  distress and asked him to raise his gear so as to climb and accelerate.   The plane responded well and climbed briskly.  He just needed  to  change his focus from "I have to get back to the runway mode to I can  fly with the available power and take my time to set up a good simulated  engine out and safe landing" with the power I have. 

  

 Practice like you fly, fly like you practice.  Once the brain  sees how to do something, gains experience, it can translate that  experience to an emergency situation.  Bitching Betty and flashing lights  allow you to die all tensed up unless you put them to use in your flight  practice.  The rules of any emergency are:  maintain aircraft  control, analyze the situation and then take proper action.  Maintaining  aircraft control requires practice.  Know your plane and know  yourself.

  

 Nice job on your article.

  

 Best Regards,

 Bud Yerly

  

  

 [quote]   ---

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: Stall/spin

Bud, Thank you for that. I absolutely agree that we should 

all practice these things frequently and intelligently, 

but the statistics suggest that however much you practice 

you risk finding yourself less than 'perfect' in an engine 

failure at circuit height situation. The high risk run by 

CPLs and students with instructors rather underlines this 

point, and my thesis is that to make even the most 

experienced of us fairly bullet proof,  an 'impossible to 

ignore' Bitching Betty system based on critical AOA or g 

compensated speed is the only way we are likely to see a 

major impact on the 7 to 8 deaths a year in the UK and 

loads more in the States that are due to Stall/Spin 

accidents.

Regards, David

On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 13:07:05 -0400

  "Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote] David,

 A sticky subject to say the least.

 

 I whole heartedly agree with your points...Warning 

systems are great, but practice makes perfect.

 

 Train like you fly, fly like you train is the pilot 

motto we instilled in our military training crews.

 

 Just emphasizing your points:

 

 This means going up three mistakes high and practicing 

maneuvers, better yet, with an experienced pilot or even 

better yet with an experienced instructor on your 

proficiency check rides.  My preference is that you take 

your aircraft and you, to the edge of the envelope, in 

slow flight maneuvering, stall feel, accelerated stall, 

deep stall, turning stalls both clean and dirty, 

simulated engine out approaches, loaded (level turn) and 

unloaded turns (max turn rate with alt loss),  unusual 

attitude recoveries such as:  nose low and nose high 

recovery techniques, min altitude loss maneuvers (aka 

high and low speed dive recoveries).  Since some aircraft 

will snap inverted in a deep stall or aggressively acted 

stall, how to recover means getting help on how to 

recover from inverted flight in this case.  I can tell 

you that keeping the plane loaded up (positive G) while 

trying to roll back is not the answer.

 

 Today in the US we only teach approach to the stall and 

our patterns or circuits are cross country excursions. 

 Spin training is non existent.  Our pilots don't look 

out the window and understand the concept that your eyes 

fly the plane where it is supposed to go.  All of which 

is a disaster waiting to happen.  All aircraft, Cessna 

150-152, Pipers, Diamonds, and all experimentals can be 

put into a post stall snap or stall spin quite easily.  I 

even demonstrated that in an Ercoupe.  Our FAA has 

decided to go conservative. My FAA FSDO (Flight Standards 

Duty Officer) knows on test flights I max perform the 

aircraft looking for flaws, but does not like to see this 

type maneuvering I practice as it could become a disaster 

for an inexperienced pilot if he were to attempt to copy 

what he has seen rather than practicing in a controlled 

environment to gain proficiency in baby steps under 

direct supervision.  And he is right.

 

 The recognition of a stall is important.  But the 

concept of the proper or min altitude recovery is often 

taught as a mechanical action by our new instructors and 

rarely practiced later...  I routinely fly with owners 

and others who smack the stick forward, hit full power 

and gently recover losing significant altitude.  They 

commonly misjudge the engine out glide distance or 

partial power flight operations.  Stall warning 

equipment, AOA systems alert you of a high angle of 

attack situation via some warning (Bitching Betty we 

called them).  Aerodynamic feel such as stall strips 

(rumble strips) give us a feel/sound that is a stall 

warning.  That is great provided we are not distracted by 

the rough or dead engine in front of us and the 

overwhelming feeling to try to save the aircraft from 

harm...  If you don't practice these type of situations 

and chair fly the situations based on your observations, 

then you will have a disaster rather than a war story. 

 (Chair fly is a concept that once a maneuver is 

practiced or tested, such as an engine out glide maneuver 

at altitude, it is then translated to sitting in a quiet 

area and mentally (or animated via body language and 

voice) flying the maneuver how you believe it should be 

flown in an inflight emergency.)  Once the knowledge hits 

the pilot that from my position (and experience) I can't 

make the airport, I must commit to a forced landing to 

save my life and fill out the insurance paperwork.

 

 Put the Europa at 4000 rpm and 17 inches of power and 

see how far you can go.  What is the minimum power I can 

fly with.  I have shut the engine down and done 360s well 

above the airfield (pre-arranged with the airport) and 

checked the glide distance, min sink, altitude loss in 

30/60/max bank unloaded turns.  30 degree coordinated 

turns at idle loose nearly 700 feet in 180 degrees of 

turn, clean.  That's a lot of altitude.  If you attempt 

to get back to the field with an engine at idle, you 

won't make it unless you plan and fly your approach 

accordingly.  A simple exercise is to practice pulling 

the power back to idle at various points in the pattern, 

and soon you develop a picture of where you need to be, 

to fly a safe engine out pattern based on your position 

(altitude and airspeed included) in the pattern.  Once 

you have the picture, one can make sound decisions.

 

Further, with the mono, lowering the gear (and flaps) 

when landing is assured in an engine emergency must be 

practiced as the glide ratio and picture change is pretty 

large.

 A few years ago, a mono wheel pilot had a fuel pressure 

regulator failure, and could not get above 26 inches and 

4600 RPM.  He still was in takeoff configuration with 

gear down and was sinking.  I was airborne and heard his 

distress and asked him to raise his gear so as to climb 

and accelerate.  The plane responded well and climbed 

briskly.  He just needed  to change his focus from "I 

have to get back to the runway mode to I can fly with the 

available power and take my time to set up a good 

simulated engine out and safe landing" with the power I 

have. 

 

 Practice like you fly, fly like you practice.  Once the 

brain sees how to do something, gains experience, it can 

translate that experience to an emergency situation. 

 Bitching Betty and flashing lights allow you to die all 

tensed up unless you put them to use in your flight 

practice.  The rules of any emergency are:  maintain 

aircraft control, analyze the situation and then take 

proper action.  Maintaining aircraft control requires 

practice.  Know your plane and know yourself.

 

 Nice job on your article.

 

 Best Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 

 

  ---

alainchabert(at)wanadoo.f
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: Stall/spin

Salut Rémy,

       C'est du Word 2011.

       Je te l'ai traduit PDF

       Amitiés

       

                                                                                    Normal.dotm   1   2   2010-11-15T16:32:00Z   2010-11-15T16:34:00Z   1   14   81   1   1   99   12.0          <![endif]-->     150   Clean   Clean   false      21      18 pt   18 pt   0   0      false   false   false                         <![endif]-->     <![endif]-->              /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Tableau Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin-top:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-right:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; 	mso-para-margin-left:0cm; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-ansi-language:FR; 	mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->                    

Alain                 CHABERT           

            

Gsm : +33-6-07.71.02.17           

e-mail   : alainchabert(at)wanadoo.fr (alainchabert(at)wanadoo.fr)         

       

       Le 08/07/12 13:16, Remi Guerner a écrit :

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)



Hi David,

I cannot read your article. Could you please resend it in another format?

Regards

Remi





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=377609#377609

Stall_spin.pdf

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Downloaded:

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