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Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

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nickc(at)mtaonline.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

Hello Kolbers,

 

 

I am wondering where you Firestar pilots have your pitot tubes located. I am building the Kolbra prototype kit which has a Firestar noise. The pitot tube was installed straight out the noise and appears to have only stuck out about a ½ inch. Based on the recent pitot tube discussion, this location does not sound ideal, unless I stick a 6’’ or longer tube out in to hopefully undisturbed air. So I was wondering where Firestar owners have their pitot tubes mounted? Under the nose seems like a good spot…?

 

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer Alaska

 

 

  [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

A lot of planes in this class (not just Kolbs) have the 1/2" stub out the front of the nose, with a 6" or so extension joined with a piece of flexible tubing.  This gets it farther out front but saves it from damage if it gets hit.



 Put it under the nose and I think you'll get too much variation with pitch, unless it's well forward.



 -Dana



 At 02:13 PM 7/4/2012, Nick Cassara wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  I am wondering where you Firestar pilots have your pitot tubes located. I am building the Kolbra prototype kit which has a Firestar noise. The pitot tube was installed straight out the noise and appears to have only stuck out about a ½ inch. Based on the recent pitot tube discussion, this location does not sound ideal, unless I stick a 6 or longer tube out in to hopefully undisturbed air. So I was wondering where Firestar owners have their pitot tubes mounted? Under the nose seems like a good spot&? 	


 --

 Error: Keyboard not attached. Press F1 to continue.

    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

My Slingshot (same nose cone as Firestar) has the pitot/static tube mounted below the nose cone with an extension out about 6" or so ahead of the nose cone tip, using a flexible hose connection. It works very well there. 



The static port alone did not provide accurate airspeed but with that static port combined with a Tee opening in the static line behind the instrument panel, the IAS equals TAS at about 3,000-3500' density altitude, my typical summer time flight conditions. Higher than that it reads low, lower it reads higher than TAS.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

Nick, My Mk IIIC has the 1/2" stick out, smack dab in the middle of the nose bowl. Ken Holle's Mk IIIX has the pitot mounted under the nose using this;  http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/unheatedptubes4.php ,although it has been shortened so it only extends about 2" below the bottom of the nose.

 For what it's worth, I've flown both aircraft in 12 to 15 mph crosswinds, done slips, dives and slow flight and I don't see any difference between the airspeed readings in either aircraft.

The thing that does seem to make a difference is the static source. Both aircraft had had the static port simply vented into the cockpit by their original builders. Once this was corrected by making a simple two rivet static source that sample outside air, the C has two, one on each side of the nose the X has one located near the pitot, the ASI on both reads steady regardless of aircraft orientation.

 



Rick Girard



On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello Kolbers,

  

 

I am wondering where you Firestar pilots have your pitot tubes located. I am building the Kolbra prototype kit which has a Firestar noise. The pitot tube was installed straight out the noise and appears to have only stuck out about a ½ inch. Based on the recent pitot tube discussion, this location does not sound ideal, unless I stick a 6’’ or longer tube out in to hopefully undisturbed air. So I was wondering where Firestar owners have their pitot tubes mounted? Under the nose seems like a good spot…? 

 

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer Alaska 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

Kolbers,

     

     Adjust my data base if it's schewed, but I don't see how a change in     pitch would make a difference.  When you pitch up or down, except     for maybe a moment or two before the inertia of the original pitch     has been overcome, your AS is still relative to the air passing as     you fly through it.  Your ASI doesn't know if you're flying upward     or downward, only that you're cutting through the air at a certain     MPH or KPH.  The only exception I would foresee is if you're slow     flying, you're on the threshold of a stall and your angle of attack     is extreme .  

     

     Don G. built my FlagFly with the pitot down from the bottom of the     nose cone about 3" and then a right angle with flex tubing taking it     about 4" in front of the nosecone.  About the only time the ASI     jumps is with a buffeting crosswind on takeoff or when tossed about     by thermals or unstable air.  When I first flew it I had both the     ASI on the instrument panel as well as a Hall's ASI  I mounted to     the side of the nosecone.  They read the same so I removed the     Hall's.

     

     The one instrument that does vary is my MicroTim, a little     altimeter.  I got the model with no connection to the pitot, just a     little hole in the housing, and after takeoff it's always a couple     of hundred feet different from my Garmin GPS.  With the semi-     enclosed cockpit there apparently is reduced pressure at the     instrument panel.  I have to be careful there because a lot of my     flying is under the 22 or 19 ceiling of ABE's airspace so I place my     trust in my GPS there.

     

     Hope you all had a great 4th of July celebration.  I rode my cycle     to and from a picnic for a couple of hours and the heat and humidity     was brutal.  Hoped to fly today, but the H&H is even worse, so I     won't subject myself to that until shade trees are planted in the     sky.  Next week's supposed to be more humane...

     

     Dave Kulp

     Bethlehem, PA

     11DMK

     

     Do not archive

     

     

     On 7/4/2012 8:48 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

     

     [quote]       A lot of planes in this class (not just Kolbs) have         the         1/2" stub out the front of the nose, with a 6" or so extension         joined with a piece of flexible tubing.  This gets it farther         out         front but saves it from damage if it gets hit.

         

         Put it under the nose and I think you'll get too much variation         with         pitch, unless it's well forward.

         

         -Dana

         

         At 02:13 PM 7/4/2012, Nick Cassara wrote:

       

     [b]

nationcap(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

It's been awhile, but the last time I checked the altitude accuracy on GPSs wasn't very accurate or stable. Granted I was using a Garmin V, while sitting at a stop light the altitude would fluctuate between 5 - 15 feet deference. Perhaps the algorithms have been improved or it could have been before the mil spec side of GPS was released to the public.



Brad

On Jul 5, 2012, at 8:41, David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:



[quote]                   Kolbers,

     

     Adjust my data base if it's schewed, but I don't see how a change in     pitch would make a difference.  When you pitch up or down, except     for maybe a moment or two before the inertia of the original pitch     has been overcome, your AS is still relative to the air passing as     you fly through it.  Your ASI doesn't know if you're flying upward     or downward, only that you're cutting through the air at a certain     MPH or KPH.  The only exception I would foresee is if you're slow     flying, you're on the threshold of a stall and your angle of attack     is extreme .  

     

     Don G. built my FlagFly with the pitot down from the bottom of the     nose cone about 3" and then a right angle with flex tubing taking it     about 4" in front of the nosecone.  About the only time the ASI     jumps is with a buffeting crosswind on takeoff or when tossed about     by thermals or unstable air.  When I first flew it I had both the     ASI on the instrument panel as well as a Hall's ASI  I mounted to     the side of the nosecone.  They read the same so I removed the     Hall's.

     

     The one instrument that does vary is my MicroTim, a little     altimeter.  I got the model with no connection to the pitot, just a     little hole in the housing, and after takeoff it's always a couple     of hundred feet different from my Garmin GPS.  With the semi-     enclosed cockpit there apparently is reduced pressure at the     instrument panel.  I have to be careful there because a lot of my     flying is under the 22 or 19 ceiling of ABE's airspace so I place my     trust in my GPS there.

     

     Hope you all had a great 4th of July celebration.  I rode my cycle     to and from a picnic for a couple of hours and the heat and humidity     was brutal.  Hoped to fly today, but the H&H is even worse, so I     won't subject myself to that until shade trees are planted in the     sky.  Next week's supposed to be more humane...

     

     Dave Kulp

     Bethlehem, PA

     11DMK

     

     Do not archive

     

     

     On 7/4/2012 8:48 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         A lot of planes in this class (not just Kolbs) have         the         1/2" stub out the front of the nose, with a 6" or so extension         joined with a piece of flexible tubing.  This gets it farther         out         front but saves it from damage if it gets hit.

         

         Put it under the nose and I think you'll get too much variation         with         pitch, unless it's well forward.

         

         -Dana

         

         At 02:13 PM 7/4/2012, Nick Cassara wrote:

       

     

	


[b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

At 10:41 AM 7/5/2012, David Kulp wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Kolbers,

 

 Adjust my data base if it's schewed, but I don't see how a change in pitch would make a difference.  When you pitch up or down, except for maybe a moment or two before the inertia of the original pitch has been overcome, your AS is still relative to the air passing as you fly through it.  Your ASI doesn't know if you're flying upward or downward, only that you're cutting through the air at a certain MPH or KPH.  The only exception I would foresee is if you're slow flying, you're on the threshold of a stall and your angle of attack is extreme .  	


 If you have a short pitot tube mounted close under the nose, as AOA increases the pressure will build up under the nose, and cause a higher airspeed reading.



 -Dana



 

 

 --

 Resist militant "normality" -- A mind is a terrible thing to erase.    

    [quote][b]

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:19 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

Experts,

     

     I still have a fuzzy understanding of the placement of the pitot     tube and the effects of different AOAs.  Small GA aircraft commonly     have the pitot tube under (and close to) the wing and behind the     leading edge.  How does this not effect the readings of the     instruments when if you put it too close under the nose of a Kolb it     does?

     

     BTW, I have a static port on each side of the nose but am only     connected to one.  I'm going to hook up to both and see if it makes     a difference, especially in the effect buffeting winds have on my     ASI, since two ports effectively average out the pressure on both     sides.

     

     MUCH TOO HOT TO FLY TODAY!!!

     

     Smooth air and cool breezes....  someday!

     

     Dave Kulp

     Bethlehem, PA 

     FireFly 11aDMK

     

     Do not archive

     

     

     

     On 7/5/2012 7:17 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

     

     [quote]       At 10:41 AM 7/5/2012, David Kulp wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  Kolbers,

           

           Adjust my data base if it's schewed, but I don't see how a           change in           pitch would make a difference.  When you pitch up or down,           except           for maybe a moment or two before the inertia of the original           pitch has           been overcome, your AS is still relative to the air passing as           you fly           through it.  Your ASI doesn't know if you're flying upward or           downward, only that you're cutting through the air at a           certain MPH or           KPH.  The only exception I would foresee is if you're slow           flying,           you're on the threshold of a stall and your angle of attack is           extreme           .  	
       

       If you have a short pitot tube mounted close under the nose, as       AOA       increases the pressure will build up under the nose, and cause a       higher       airspeed reading.

       

       -Dana

       

       

       

       --

       Resist militant "normality" -- A mind is a terrible thing         to erase.    

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

jacklockamy(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

David,

 

Is there some reason you can’t install your pitot in the nose like most other Kolbs?   The location has worked for hundreds of other builder/owners.  No need to re-invent the wheel if you don’t have to. 

 

Remember the KISS principle...

 

Jack

 

DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Kulp

Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 11:18 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

 

Experts,



I still have a fuzzy understanding of the placement of the pitot tube and the effects of different AOAs.  Small GA aircraft commonly have the pitot tube under (and close to) the wing and behind the leading edge.  How does this not effect the readings of the instruments when if you put it too close under the nose of a Kolb it does?



BTW, I have a static port on each side of the nose but am only connected to one.  I'm going to hook up to both and see if it makes a difference, especially in the effect buffeting winds have on my ASI, since two ports effectively average out the pressure on both sides.



MUCH TOO HOT TO FLY TODAY!!!



Smooth air and cool breezes....  someday!



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA 

FireFly 11aDMK



Do not archive



On 7/5/2012 7:17 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

At 10:41 AM 7/5/2012, David Kulp wrote:

Kolbers,



Adjust my data base if it's schewed, but I don't see how a change in pitch would make a difference.  When you pitch up or down, except for maybe a moment or two before the inertia of the original pitch has been overcome, your AS is still relative to the air passing as you fly through it.  Your ASI doesn't know if you're flying upward or downward, only that you're cutting through the air at a certain MPH or KPH.  The only exception I would foresee is if you're slow flying, you're on the threshold of a stall and your angle of attack is extreme .  



If you have a short pitot tube mounted close under the nose, as AOA increases the pressure will build up under the nose, and cause a higher airspeed reading.



-Dana



--



Resist militant "normality" -- A mind is a terrible thing to erase.    

 	  Quote: 	
		     	
	


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		   </      - The Kolb-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much    --> http://www.matronic================= 	
http://forums.matronics.com         - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b] [/quote]

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

BTW, I have a static port on each side of the nose but am only connected to

one.  I'm going to hook up to both and see if it makes a difference,

especially in the effect buffeting winds have on my ASI, since two ports

effectively average out the pressure on both sides.



MUCH TOO HOT TO FLY TODAY!!!



Smooth air and cool breezes....  someday!



Dave Kulp

 



Dave K/Kolbers:



I started out with one static port on the side of my nose cone on my

original FS.  It worked great if I kept the FS perfectly trimmed.  Of

course, I couldn't do that.  So...I would pressurize the system one way and

create a vacuum the other.  I added another static port on the opposite side

and T'd them to the static system.  Worked great whether trimmed up in yaw

or not.



I might add, the static port you use can also create pressure or vacuum

depending on the design.  Mine were turned out of 6061 aluminum.  The port

was about 1/16" thick on the side of the nose pod.  This created a vacuum

and the ASI read high.  Honed a little off the forward edge of the 1/16"

holes on each port to equalize the system.  It worked.



My MKIII uses a government surplus Kohlsman pitot/static system designed for

PT-17's during WWII.  It is nickel plated brass.  Was still wrapped in

cosmoline and oiled paper when I got it.  Think I paid about 10.00 for it

from Wag Aero.  Thought it would cure my static pressure problems, but it

didn't.  Static system  was pressurizing.  To fix that problem I

experimented with  aluminum tubing connectors with different size bleed

holes in them.  Flew a to and from course at constant indicated air speed,

compared to the GPS ground speed until I got the static system calibrated.

That was 20 years ago.  Occasionally, I have to recalibrate the system to

get it right on the correct indicated airspeed.  Works for me and didn't

cost anything except a little gas to go fly to calibrate.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

Jack,

     

     Mine's fine, I was replying to a discussion where there are those     who have a problem with their pitot tube mounted under the nose     cone.  

     

     Dave  

     

     Do Not Archive

     

     

     On 7/7/2012 11:46 AM, Jack Lockamy       wrote:

     

     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

David,         

          

Is             there some reason you can’t install your pitot in the nose             like most other Kolbs?   The location has worked for             hundreds of other builder/owners.  No need to re-invent the             wheel if you don’t have to.          

          

Remember             the KISS principle...         

          

Jack         

          

DO             NOT ARCHIVE         

                                  

From:                 owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On                   Behalf Of David Kulp

                 Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 11:18 AM

                 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: Re: Pitot tube placement on a                 Firestar....           

         

         

          

Experts,

           

           I still have a fuzzy understanding of the placement of the           pitot tube and the effects of different AOAs.  Small GA           aircraft commonly have the pitot tube under (and close to) the           wing and behind the leading edge.  How does this not effect           the readings of the instruments when if you put it too close           under the nose of a Kolb it does?

           

           BTW, I have a static port on each side of the nose but am only           connected to one.  I'm going to hook up to both and see if it           makes a difference, especially in the effect buffeting winds           have on my ASI, since two ports effectively average out the           pressure on both sides.

           

           MUCH TOO HOT TO FLY TODAY!!!

           

           Smooth air and cool breezes....  someday!

           

           Dave Kulp

           Bethlehem, PA 

           FireFly 11aDMK

           

           Do not archive

           

           

                               

On 7/5/2012 7:17 PM, Dana Hague wrote:         

          	  Quote: 	
		             

At 10:41 AM 7/5/2012, David Kulp wrote:

             

                        

Kolbers,

             

             Adjust my data base if it's schewed, but I don't see how a             change in pitch would make a difference.  When you pitch up             or down, except for maybe a moment or two before the inertia             of the original pitch has been overcome, your AS is still             relative to the air passing as you fly through it.  Your ASI             doesn't know if you're flying upward or downward, only that             you're cutting through the air at a certain MPH or KPH.  The             only exception I would foresee is if you're slow flying,             you're on the threshold of a stall and your angle of attack             is extreme .             



             If you have a short pitot tube mounted close under the nose,             as AOA increases the pressure will build up under the nose,             and cause a higher airspeed reading.

             

             -Dana

             

             

                                     

--           

                        

Resist militant "normality" -- A mind               is a terrible thing to erase.               

            	  Quote: 	
		     	
         	
         

           	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronic=================[/url] 	
         http://forums.matronics.com                     - List Contribution Web generous             nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c=                	  Quote: 	
		   	
             

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     [b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

All this fuss about the accuracy of the altimeter  to a few feet  What does it matter? Altimeters have always been  notoriously inaccurate

 If you are that close to anything that is going to  hurt you, like the ground, you should be looking outside the cockpit anyway.Or  do you guys do blind flying approaches on instruments?

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

It's not the ground, Pat.  I fly close to ABE and must remain under     their ceiling.  Rumor has it that if you intrude in their airspace     they've got an AK47 mounted in their control tower which they use to     remove you from it.  Gotta be careful.

     

     Dave Kulp

     

     PS  Is it as hot on your side of the pond???

     

     Do not archive.

     

     

     On 7/7/2012 12:35 PM, Pat Ladd wrote:

     

     [quote]                            All this fuss about the accuracy           of the altimeter to a few feet  What does it matter?           Altimeters have always been notoriously inaccurate

       If you are that close to anything           that is going to hurt you, like the ground, you should be           looking outside the cockpit anyway.Or do you guys do blind           flying approaches on instruments?

        

       Pat

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

If you are that close to anything that is going to hurt you, like the

ground, you should be looking outside the cockpit anyway. Or do you guys do

blind flying approaches on instruments?

 

Pat

Patrick L/Kolbers:



Don't know how you do it in England.



Here in the States and Canada we have restricted areas, obstructions, etc.

An accurate altimeter helps us stay out of air space we don't belong and

keeps me above obstructions, i.e., towers, and highest terrain, as noted on

our Sectional Charts.



Rather than fly around an airport control zone that is in my route of

flight, I check to see how high it is, then climb over.   That is what the

little blue box indicates on the sectional.  Save time and fuel.



I have always flown with an accurate altimeter, both in US Army aircraft and

my three Kolbs.



Normally, I don't fly blind, but at 73 I get closer to it each day.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:07 pm Post subject: Pitot tube placement on a Firestar....

Normally, I don't fly blind, but at 73 I get closer to it each day.>>

Nice one John.

Oh to be only 73 again.



I think, professional, particularly the military, always work to a greater 

degree of accuracy than the usual light a/c pilot. Particularly when air 

currents affect the plane especially light a/c like ours. I once  flew a 

member of the Red Arrows RAF aerobatic team in my Challenger. As usual the 

height wandered up and down 25 ft and the speed varied a little. I asked my 

passenger to take over and the plane suddenly started running  on rails. The 

speed and alt. didn`t vary an iota. Very chastening experience.

As far as needing accurate altitude to stay out of controlled airspaceof 

course we are the same as you but I wouldn`t  push my luck within 50 ft even 

if I had a radar altimeter let alone a pressure operated instrument.



The only difference is that we set airfield height as zero , change to a 

regional pressure above a certain height if going across country. We pick up 

the local presser (QFE) along with landing instruction, runway, weather etc. 

and reset the altimeter at the destination airfield.

Although this may sound complicated it means that you do not have to do any 

mental maths as a 600ft circuit height shows as 6oo ft on the alt. and 

runway height is zero.



Cheers



Pat

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