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Engine cooling Louver Vents

 
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jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Gentlepeople,

A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation. I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.

In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling. However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".

I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em') Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?

Thanks for your time and consderation.

Jeff Paris
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Hi Jeff,

I am not an expert, but I think a single lip on the exit point of the cowl bottom could have the same drawing effect as louvers positioned along the cowl bottom.

Paul
Camas, WA
 
On 7/20/2012 11:36 AM, Jeffrey J Paris wrote:

[quote] Gentlepeople,
 
A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation.  I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.
 
In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling.  However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact  that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".
 
I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em')  Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?
 
Thanks for your time and consderation.
 
Jeff Paris
Quote:

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Joined: 30 Nov 2006
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Location: NEW ZEALAND

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Have a look at
http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Engine%20Cooling%20JSB016-1.pdf
We used the Medium version and head temps are now great no matter what power settings
Regards
Keith
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 21 July 2012 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Engine cooling Louver Vents


Hi Jeff,

I am not an expert, but I think a single lip on the exit point of the cowl bottom could have the same drawing effect as louvers positioned along the cowl bottom.

Paul
Camas, WA

On 7/20/2012 11:36 AM, Jeffrey J Paris wrote:

[quote] Gentlepeople,

A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation. I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.

In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling. However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".

I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em') Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?

Thanks for your time and consderation.

Jeff Paris
Quote:



--> http://www.matronics.com/con================

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.  
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s).  This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
 --->  ___/  [But flip it so it angles DOWN]  Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp.  Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:
[quote] Gentlepeople,
 
A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation.  I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.
 
In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling.  However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact  that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".
 
I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em')  Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?
 
Thanks for your time and consderation.
 
Jeff Paris
Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Barry… I'm interested in your concept here, but I can't understand it. Any chance of a photo?
I'm currently working on cooling my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa.

I've put a 5" lip on the bottom of the cowl exit and this has made a big difference to temperatures in the climb, but it has highlighted uneven cylinder cooling - so my next project is to put some dams to force air between the middle cylinder, and also to route HT leads straight out away from air-flow rather than the bundle of cables blocking it all up.
-Carl.

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:21, FLYaDIVE wrote:
[quote]Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s). This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
---> ___/ [But flip it so it angles DOWN] Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp. Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Gentlepeople,

A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation. I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.

In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling. However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".

I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em') Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?

Thanks for your time and consderation.

Jeff Paris
Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Carl:

You are in luck.  I happen to have a set for a job I'm doing - - - I'll take pictures and post them. It will happen just a little later this morning.
Barry

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Barry… I'm interested in your concept here, but I can't understand it.  Any chance of a photo?
I'm currently working on cooling my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa.

I've put a 5" lip on the bottom of the cowl exit and this has made a big difference to temperatures in the climb, but it has highlighted uneven cylinder cooling - so my next project is to put some dams to force air between the middle cylinder, and also to route HT leads straight out away from air-flow rather than the bundle of cables blocking it all up.


-Carl.

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:21, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.  
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s).  This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
 --->  ___/  [But flip it so it angles DOWN]  Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp.  Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry


On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Gentlepeople,
 
A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation.  I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.
 
In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling.  However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact  that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".
 
I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em')  Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?
 
Thanks for your time and consderation.
 
Jeff Paris

Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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Quote:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Hello Carl:

Quicker than I thought.
Here are some pictures:
1 - Pictures 1 & 2 show a side view of what it looks like.  This flap is for a large plane with a hidden exhaust ramp for the out going air so I had it made 1" mounting lip and 2" of hang-down.
2 - Picture 3 is a isometric view.  The length should be so it spans from one end of an opening to the other.  DO NOT MAKE IT SHORTER THAN THE SPAN.
3 - Picture 4 shows it mounted UNDER the lip of a desk... NO!  The desk does not have a over heating problem EXCEPT around April 15th.  I mount it with the mounting edge INSIDE the exit ramp.  LQQKs better.
4 - Picture 5 shows a side view of how it should look when mounted.
Hope this helps.  It works GREAT on the applications I have worked on.  
REMEMBER - Without a good exhaust of air flow there cannot be a good input of air flow.  Exit must be at least TWICE the area of Intake.  
AND! ! !  You must - Have a GREAT seal around the engine with the baffling.  
Every little hole you plug helps improve the cooling. 
Barry
PS
Start with a 45 Deg angle and reduce it from there <-- Reduce it only if needed and if you wish.  I have never reduced it on any of the installs I have done.  DO not go beyond 45 Deg - Not needed - Not any better and at that point it becomes drag.
Same rules apply as for aileron trim tabs.


On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry… I'm interested in your concept here, but I can't understand it.  Any chance of a photo?


I'm currently working on cooling my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa.

I've put a 5" lip on the bottom of the cowl exit and this has made a big difference to temperatures in the climb, but it has highlighted uneven cylinder cooling - so my next project is to put some dams to force air between the middle cylinder, and also to route HT leads straight out away from air-flow rather than the bundle of cables blocking it all up.


-Carl.

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:21, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.  
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s).  This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
 --->  ___/  [But flip it so it angles DOWN]  Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp.  Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry


On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Gentlepeople,
 
A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation.  I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.
 
In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling.  However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact  that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".
 
I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em')  Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?
 
Thanks for your time and consderation.
 
Jeff Paris

Quote:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Carl:

Did you receive the email and pictures?  Wes, tells me that the pictures did not get posted.
Barry

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Barry… I'm interested in your concept here, but I can't understand it.  Any chance of a photo?


I'm currently working on cooling my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa.

I've put a 5" lip on the bottom of the cowl exit and this has made a big difference to temperatures in the climb, but it has highlighted uneven cylinder cooling - so my next project is to put some dams to force air between the middle cylinder, and also to route HT leads straight out away from air-flow rather than the bundle of cables blocking it all up.


-Carl.

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:21, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.  
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s).  This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
 --->  ___/  [But flip it so it angles DOWN]  Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp.  Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry


On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Gentlepeople,
 
A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation.  I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.
 
In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling.  However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact  that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".
 
I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em')  Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?
 
Thanks for your time and consderation.
 
Jeff Paris

Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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Quote:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

Hi Barry,

Yes, I received the pictures fine. I'm just trying to puzzle out exactly where the thing mounts ….
Attached is a picture of my new "lip"
Regards,
-Carl.
[img]cid:C6CEFC3D-1FC0-4471-AEC3-166132BD9F2B(at)virtusales.virtusales.com[/img]
On 24 Jul 2012, at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Carl:

Did you receive the email and pictures? Wes, tells me that the pictures did not get posted.
Barry

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry… I'm interested in your concept here, but I can't understand it. Any chance of a photo?


I'm currently working on cooling my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa.

I've put a 5" lip on the bottom of the cowl exit and this has made a big difference to temperatures in the climb, but it has highlighted uneven cylinder cooling - so my next project is to put some dams to force air between the middle cylinder, and also to route HT leads straight out away from air-flow rather than the bundle of cables blocking it all up.


-Carl.

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:21, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s). This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
---> ___/ [But flip it so it angles DOWN] Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp. Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry


On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Gentlepeople,

A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation. I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.

In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling. However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".

I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em') Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?

Thanks for your time and consderation.

Jeff Paris

Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Engine cooling Louver Vents Reply with quote

WOW Carl...

That this is almost pointing straight down.  Isn't there ANY way you could sweep it back?  As I mentioned you do not want to have an angle there more than 45 Deg.  I would guess you are at 80 Deg.  This is a HUGE amount of Drag and a HUGE  LACK of flow out of the cowl.  
Also, as mentioned - The exhaust area of a cowl must be at least twice the area of the intake - BUT - In your case the intake must also be increased because of the TURBULENCE and LACK of flow out of the cowl.  Now you have to FORCE more air into the cowl just to overcome the inefficient exhaust area.  This would be more parasitic internal drag.  Not what you want, not for cooling and not for speed - Which is also cooling.


If you can - Sweep the exhaust pipe back so it almost parallels the belly - Sweep the fixed cowl flap back.  IF you can not sweep it back ADD a backward curve to the exhaust ramp.  You want the exhaust ramp facing as rear as possible.  Better a tube than a wall.


Attached are pictures of a rough sketch.
If what Carl has is the same as what others have that is the #1 cause for high temps.
Barry
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Hi Barry,

Yes, I received the pictures fine. I'm just trying to puzzle out exactly where the thing mounts ….
Attached is a picture of my new "lip"


Regards,
-Carl.
[img]cid:C6CEFC3D-1FC0-4471-AEC3-166132BD9F2B(at)virtusales.virtusales.com[/img]
On 24 Jul 2012, at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote:

Quote:
Carl:

Did you receive the email and pictures?  Wes, tells me that the pictures did not get posted.
Barry

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry… I'm interested in your concept here, but I can't understand it.  Any chance of a photo?


I'm currently working on cooling my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa.

I've put a 5" lip on the bottom of the cowl exit and this has made a big difference to temperatures in the climb, but it has highlighted uneven cylinder cooling - so my next project is to put some dams to force air between the middle cylinder, and also to route HT leads straight out away from air-flow rather than the bundle of cables blocking it all up.


-Carl.

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:21, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Jeff:

The hard and fast rule for forced air cooling is the EXHAUST area must be at least TWICE the size INTAKE area.  
Another simple little trick in cooling is to create a negative pressure area directly at the ramp exhaust port(s).  This can be done with a simple piece of aluminum strip 1 1/2 to 2" wide and long enough to span the ramp area and bent lengthwise down the center-line at a 45 deg angle sort of like this
 --->  ___/  [But flip it so it angles DOWN]  Then rivet it to the edge of the air exhaust ramp.  Works great and you will NEVER notice any drag... Just lower temps.
Barry


On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com (jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Gentlepeople,
 
A few months ago someone out on our lists mentioned that they were using some louvered vents in an aid to cooling their Jabiru installation.  I would be interested to see if anyone has some anecdotal or actual experience with utilizing louvered vents on the bottom of a cowl in an effort to aid and imnprove engine cooling.
 
In my case I have a Jab3300 powered Zentith Zodiac in which I'm pretty much dialed into in terms of cooling.  However, I am also a builder of a Jab 3300 powered Europa Classic Monowheel and due to the fact  that the footwells and the main landing gear truncate the bottom opening of the cowl making a clean and big enough exit a bit "messy".
 
I am curious to see if a set of vented louvers running parallel and under each cylinder would create enough pull to enhance cooling? (Bonanzas have em')  Do the experts think I might have some luck with just such an installation?
 
Thanks for your time and consderation.
 
Jeff Paris

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