 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dlj04(at)josephson.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
 |
|
I wrote earlier
| Quote: | > The TSO (required to meet "approved" under FAR 91.207) generally includes
> the antenna supplied by the ELT mfr, so any modification would void the
> TSO. You'd have to check with Ameri-King. Bending the antenna is probably
> not a problem. It would not be a good idea to solder on an extension,
> mainly because many ELT antennas are physically shorter than quarter-wave
> due to the presence of loading coils, and you too would be modifying TSO'd
> equipment without approval. As the inspector, are you equipped to measure
> the radiated output in accordance with 91.207 (d)(4)?
Sorry, there should have been more detail. The point is that the FAR's
|
don't specify how to measure radiated output. Maybe it's in the
manufacturer's instructions, maybe not, in which case you're on your
own... different shops use different methods like using a portable radio
with no antenna or a remote receiver to see whether there is "sufficient
signal radiated from its antenna."
But check with Ameri-King, the shortened antenna may be factory length.
David
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
|
|
The requirements are in the TSO. The FARs require compliance with the
TSO. TSO approval is on the transmitter with antenna, which prevents
substitution with anything but identical antenna or one the manufacturer
has determined to perform identically.
On 7/24/2012 8:14 AM, D L Josephson wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry, there should have been more detail. The point is that the FAR's
don't specify how to measure radiated output. Maybe it's in the
manufacturer's instructions, maybe not, in which case you're on your
own... different shops use different methods like using a portable
radio with no antenna or a remote receiver to see whether there is
"sufficient signal radiated from its antenna."
But check with Ameri-King, the shortened antenna may be factory length.
David
|
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
|
|
David, The antenna has definitely been hacked off. I have an identical Ameri-King ELT on my personal airplane and it is about 7 to 8 inches longer and has a ball end, no saw marks of ragged shrink tubing.I called the Wichita FSDO and got the answer. I can replace the antenna for the owner with an unaltered correct one, or I can get a ferry permit to fly it home to him and he can deal with it.
On the sufficient signal strength, the rule is basically there to require a check to see that the antenna is indeed radiating, i.e. connected properly to the radio. Get your hand held, tune to 121.5, activate the ELT, see that you get a signal on the hand held, and your done.
The inspector was kind enough to suggest a local shop that might have an antenna, Bevan Rabell, and the good folks there are trying to help.
Thanks Guys,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
The requirements are in the TSO. The FARs require compliance with the TSO. TSO approval is on the transmitter with antenna, which prevents substitution with anything but identical antenna or one the manufacturer has determined to perform identically.
On 7/24/2012 8:14 AM, D L Josephson wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry, there should have been more detail. The point is that the FAR's don't specify how to measure radiated output. Maybe it's in the manufacturer's instructions, maybe not, in which case you're on your own... different shops use different methods like using a portable radio with no antenna or a remote receiver to see whether there is "sufficient signal radiated from its antenna."
But check with Ameri-King, the shortened antenna may be factory length.
David
|
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
====================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stuart(at)stuarthutchison
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
|
|
Hi Rick,
I appreciate that 121.5 radiation is a measure of success, but not sure if you guys are talking about a 406 beacon.
You're best not to transmit live without approval .. otherwise, in no time at all (one 406 data burst) you will have triggered a DISTRESS phase at the RCC.
Kind regards, Stu<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:21 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Unapproved ELT antenna?
David, The antenna has definitely been hacked off. I have an identical Ameri-King ELT on my personal airplane and it is about 7 to 8 inches longer and has a ball end, no saw marks of ragged shrink tubing. I called the Wichita FSDO and got the answer. I can replace the antenna for the owner with an unaltered correct one, or I can get a ferry permit to fly it home to him and he can deal with it.
On the sufficient signal strength, the rule is basically there to require a check to see that the antenna is indeed radiating, i.e. connected properly to the radio. Get your hand held, tune to 121.5, activate the ELT, see that you get a signal on the hand held, and your done.
The inspector was kind enough to suggest a local shop that might have an antenna, Bevan Rabell, and the good folks there are trying to help.
Thanks Guys,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
The requirements are in the TSO. The FARs require compliance with the TSO. TSO approval is on the transmitter with antenna, which prevents substitution with anything but identical antenna or one the manufacturer has determined to perform identically.
On 7/24/2012 8:14 AM, D L Josephson wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry, there should have been more detail. The point is that the FAR's don't specify how to measure radiated output. Maybe it's in the manufacturer's instructions, maybe not, in which case you're on your own... different shops use different methods like using a portable radio with no antenna or a remote receiver to see whether there is "sufficient signal radiated from its antenna."
But check with Ameri-King, the shortened antenna may be factory length.
David
|
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
====================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:35 am Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
|
|
7/25/2012
Hello Rick, You wrote: “....or I can get a ferry permit to fly it home to
him and he can deal with it.”
Either one of two provisions of the FARs already give permission to fly that
airplane to the owner’s home field without the need for the paperwork of a
ferry permit. See here:
“91.207 Emergency locator transmitters.
(e) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, a person may—
(2) Ferry an airplane with an inoperative emergency locator transmitter from
a place where repairs or replacements cannot be made to a place where they
can be made."
or 91.207 (f)
"(10) An aircraft during any period for which the transmitter has been
temporarily removed for inspection, repair, modification, or replacement,
subject to the following:
(i) No person may operate the aircraft unless the aircraft records contain
an entry which includes the date of initial removal, the make, model, serial
number, and reason for removing the transmitter, and a placard located in
view of the pilot to show “ELT not installed.”
(ii) No person may operate the aircraft more than 90 days after the ELT is
initially removed from the aircraft;..."
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather
and understand information."
========================================================================================
Time: 02:22:49 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Re: Unapproved ELT antenna?
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
David, The antenna has definitely been hacked off. I have an identical
Ameri-King ELT on my personal airplane and it is about 7 to 8 inches longer
and has a ball end, no saw marks of ragged shrink tubing.
I called the Wichita FSDO and got the answer. I can replace the antenna for
the owner with an unaltered correct one, or I can get a ferry permit to fly
it home to him and he can deal with it.
On the sufficient signal strength, the rule is basically there to require a
check to see that the antenna is indeed radiating, i.e. connected properly
to the radio. Get your hand held, tune to 121.5, activate the ELT, see that
you get a signal on the hand held, and your done.
The inspector was kind enough to suggest a local shop that might have an
antenna, Bevan Rabell, and the good folks there are trying to help.
Thanks Guys,
Rick Girard
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
|
|
Stu, The following are excerpts from AIM section 6-2-5, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), dealing with testing, false alarms, and reporting.
Testing
1. ELTs should be tested in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. This should be done, preferably, in a shielded or screened room or specially designed test container to prevent the broadcast of signals, which could trigger a false alert.
2. When this cannot be done, aircraft operational testing is authorized as follows:
(a) Analog 121.5/243 MHz ELTs should only be tested during the first five minutes after any hour. If operational tests must be made outside of this period, they should be coordinated with the nearest FAA Control Tower or Flight Ser-vice Station. Tests should be no longer than three audible weeps. If the antenna is removable, a dummy load should be substituted during test procedures.
(b) Digital 406 MHz ELTs should only be tested in accordance with the unit's manufacturer's instructions.
(c) Airborne tests are not authorized.
Rick
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Rick,
I appreciate that 121.5 radiation is a measure of success, but not sure if you guys are talking about a 406 beacon.
You're best not to transmit live without approval ... otherwise, in no time at all (one 406 data burst) you will have triggered a DISTRESS phase at the RCC.
Kind regards, Stu
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:21 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Unapproved ELT antenna?
David, The antenna has definitely been hacked off. I have an identical Ameri-King ELT on my personal airplane and it is about 7 to 8 inches longer and has a ball end, no saw marks of ragged shrink tubing. I called the Wichita FSDO and got the answer. I can replace the antenna for the owner with an unaltered correct one, or I can get a ferry permit to fly it home to him and he can deal with it.
On the sufficient signal strength, the rule is basically there to require a check to see that the antenna is indeed radiating, i.e. connected properly to the radio. Get your hand held, tune to 121.5, activate the ELT, see that you get a signal on the hand held, and your done.
The inspector was kind enough to suggest a local shop that might have an antenna, Bevan Rabell, and the good folks there are trying to help.
Thanks Guys,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
The requirements are in the TSO. The FARs require compliance with the TSO. TSO approval is on the transmitter with antenna, which prevents substitution with anything but identical antenna or one the manufacturer has determined to perform identically.
On 7/24/2012 8:14 AM, D L Josephson wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry, there should have been more detail. The point is that the FAR's don't specify how to measure radiated output. Maybe it's in the manufacturer's instructions, maybe not, in which case you're on your own... different shops use different methods like using a portable radio with no antenna or a remote receiver to see whether there is "sufficient signal radiated from its antenna."
But check with Ameri-King, the shortened antenna may be factory length.
David
|
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
====================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:29 am Post subject: Unapproved ELT antenna? |
|
|
Exactly but there still seems to be misunderstanding...
When I follow the manufacturer's instructions and do the 3 month self
test, I was surprised to learn that my ACK E-04 unit immediately
transmits a short live 406 test burst. I know this because I then get an
email from the Canadian Search and Rescue center confirming receipt of
my "test signal". Unlike other pilots I've spoken to, I will continue to
follow the manufacturer instructions. It would seem that RCC has no
problem recognizing these as "test bursts" and there is no need for any
coordination with any authority when doing the self test. They obviously
know whose ELT it is. The GPS position does not go out on the test burst
of this unit because the self test is supposed to be done WITHOUT
aircraft power or GPS info being fed to the unit.
On my unit the self test means pressing the black "test/reset" button
NOT the red Emergency button. But the labelling is applied by the
installer and can be reversed. In fact the rev 1.6 installation manual
actually has the photo on Page 1 reversed. However the text says
"Caution: The “ON“ position marking on the placard must be aligned with
the red switch, the “TEST/RESET” marking must be over the black switch
(Fig. 5)". Perhaps some are installed backwards and that has caused
some problems leading to folks now avoiding the self tests??
BTW ACK no longer recommends using the Ameriking RCPI (panel indicator)
with the ACK E-04. There is a wiring reversal required if you do attempt
to do that but mine did not function even with the reversed wiring
connector.
Ken
On 25/07/2012 10:15 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Stu, The following are excerpts from AIM section 6-2-5, Emergency
Locator Transmitter (ELT), dealing with testing, false alarms, and
reporting.
Testing
1. ELTs should be tested in accordance with the manufacturer's
instructions. This should be done, preferably, in a shielded or screened
room or specially designed test container to prevent the broadcast of
signals, which could trigger a false alert.
2. When this cannot be done, aircraft operational testing is authorized
as follows:
(a) _Analog 121.5/243 MHz ELTs should only be tested during the first
five minutes_ after any hour. If operational tests must be made outside
of this period, they should be coordinated with the nearest FAA Control
Tower or Flight Ser-vice Station. Tests should be no longer than three
audible weeps. If the antenna is removable, a dummy load should be
substituted during test procedures.
(b) _Digital 406 MHz ELTs should only be tested in accordance with the
unit's manufacturer's instructions._
(c) Airborne tests are not authorized.
Rick
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Stuart Hutchison
<stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au <mailto:stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>>
wrote:
__
Hi Rick,
I appreciate that 121.5 radiation is a measure of success, but not
sure if you guys are talking about a 406 beacon.
You're best not to transmit live without approval ... otherwise, in
no time at all (one 406 data burst) you will have triggered a
DISTRESS phase at the RCC.
Kind regards, Stu______
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
*Richard Girard
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:21 AM
*To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
<mailto:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* Re: Re: Unapproved ELT antenna?
David, The antenna has definitely been hacked off. I have an
identical Ameri-King ELT on my personal airplane and it is about 7
to 8 inches longer and has a ball end, no saw marks of ragged shrink
tubing.
I called the Wichita FSDO and got the answer. I can replace the
antenna for the owner with an unaltered correct one, or I can get a
ferry permit to fly it home to him and he can deal with it.
On the sufficient signal strength, the rule is basically there to
require a check to see that the antenna is indeed radiating, i.e.
connected properly to the radio. Get your hand held, tune to 121.5,
activate the ELT, see that you get a signal on the hand held, and
your done.
The inspector was kind enough to suggest a local shop that might
have an antenna, Bevan Rabell, and the good folks there are trying
to help.
Thanks Guys,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Kelly McMullen
<kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>> wrote:
<kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>>
The requirements are in the TSO. The FARs require compliance
with the TSO. TSO approval is on the transmitter with antenna,
which prevents substitution with anything but identical antenna
or one the manufacturer has determined to perform identically.
On 7/24/2012 8:14 AM, D L Josephson wrote:
Sorry, there should have been more detail. The point is that
the FAR's don't specify how to measure radiated output.
Maybe it's in the manufacturer's instructions, maybe not, in
which case you're on your own... different shops use
different methods like using a portable radio with no
antenna or a remote receiver to see whether there is
"sufficient signal radiated from its antenna."
But check with Ameri-King, the shortened antenna may be
factory length.
David
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
