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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
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 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: Air Leak |
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Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys! [quote]
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
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rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: Air Leak |
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Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Rob Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Air Leak |
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Rico,
It's possible the emergency air test itself has stressed a seal or similar in your air system, as it uses the full air pressure without restriction. If anything is getting near to its limits then this test is the most likely to finally break it.
From your description it appears that the emergency protection valve (under the front seat) is doing its job ok - to vent the emergency system after use and to allow small leaks to dissipate. Bigger leaks, or full on emergency air use, shuts the valve above 5 kgf/cm2. So the fact that you're hearing this valve vent identifies that we're dealing with a relatively small, if noisy, leak.
Air leaking into the emergency system (on a -52) can come from a number of sources, so let's work through these and try to eliminate them by some simple checks where we can;
1 - Emergency Air Cocks
One per cockpit plumbed in parallel so either one not sealing can leak air into the system. As the -52 does not have the emergency air system recharged by the engine air compressor then if one of these cocks is seeping then the emergency air pressure will progressively drop. So is your -52 emergency air gauge giving a constant reading over time or is it dropping down? (Assuming it wasn't doing this before this latest issue arose)
2 - Brake Emergency Non-Return Valve (NRV)
The emergency air system feeds the brakes via a NRV that's tee'd with a similar feed from the main air system, before it gets to the common brake actuator valve. If the emergency NRV is leaking then air from the main system can bleed into the emergency system. This only requires the main air to be on and it doesn't matter whether the downstream brake lever is operated or not.
There is a simple test here but it requires some caution! With the main air OFF, carefully select BOTH cockpit gear selectors to NEUTRAL - this isolates the main air feed into the gear system and vents it. Open the main air cock and if you still get air hissing from the emergency protection valve then it's probably the brake emergency NRV that's the culprit. Don't forget to reselect (at least the front) gear selectors down again once you've finished this test!
3 - Up-Lock Release
The emergency air system feeds each of the 3 gear up-lock releases in between the two pistons inside each device (independently operating one on top of the other). Such that if the main air fed first piston fails/seizes then the second piston might still be operated via emergency air. Hence it's possible that if the first piston seal is seeping air (seal deterioration or cylinder corrosion) then main air might leak into the emergency system when the gear is down. No simple check here, all you can do is use your leak detector to try and pick up the sound of the leak around (one of) the up-lock release mechanisms.
4 - Shuttle Valves
The emergency air system feeds each of the 3 gear shuttle valves (each with a main & emergency air feed, with a common output to the gear actuator), such that the hard rubber 'pea' inside shuttles to block off the lowest pressure air feed port. So the pea tends to spend much of its life blocking the emergency air feed port off, until disturbed by an emergency gear activation. Consequently it ends up being slightly distorted and over time perishes, either way there's no guarantee than once disturbed it will re-seat properly again. Hence this could be another (and probably most likely) source of main air bleed into the emergency system. No simple checks here either other than, as you've already done, using your leak detector. Although as these are not external leaks then any highly directional ultrasound produced is going to be muffled by the internal plumbing.
Anyway hope the above at least allows you to eliminate some of the potential causes of your leak ... I'll leave it to the experienced hands-on engineers to advise on the easiest way to rectify what you discover.
Rob R
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:46 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
[b]
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drc(at)wscare.com
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:54 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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Rico. Call me and I'll explain.
Sent from DrC(at)wscare.com (DrC(at)wscare.com) on the iPhone. Please excuse spelling and autocorrect. Siri makes mistakes  .
On Sep 3, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)> wrote:
[quote]Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys! | Quote: |
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//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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cs.com
===================================
matronics.com/contribution
===================================
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[b]
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ssssskippy
Joined: 02 May 2010
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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Hi all
During my last annual (yak52) the emergency releaf valve was stuck due to exces of water In the air circuit.
I had some difficulty to unscrew the valve but it is possible.
After cleaning the valve was running as a new one.
Olivier V
Le 4 sept. 2012 Ă 13:42, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> a Ă©crit :
[quote]Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
===================================
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===================================
cs.com
===================================
matronics.com/contribution
===================================
|
[b]
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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Rico, The shuttle valves are the probably the problem. Disconnect the nose emergency line and see if air comes out the line or the valve. If the line then repeat with one of the landing gear. The shuttle valves are nothing more than two lines into the top of a “T”. the bottom of the “T” goes to the actuator. There is a little rubber ball that shuttles back and forth in the top of the “T”. They become hard and deformed over the years and when you use the emergency gear then the deformed ball does not seat the appropriate side of the “T” and thus the leak. We have some of the rubber balls if necessary. Jill has the kits to reseal the whole assembly.
George
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:16 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Replace the nose gear actuator?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
01
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:36 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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No, the valve under the seat on the right side with a large hex head and a hole in the middle.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 7:18:56 AM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Replace the nose gear actuator?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:42 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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George,
But if he depletes all the air in both tanks, then pressurizes the tanks through the external air fill port, then turns the main air valve on and the emergency relief valve ("fart" valve) still leaks, I would think it is more likely the emergency relief valve than a shuttle valve. No? I guess one shuttle valve could be stuck, but with zero pressure and then a full 50+ ATM's to push the ball back the other way, my suspicion would be the relief valve just won't shut off. I've had that happen once or twice before.
Dennis
From: George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 7:33:08 AM
Subject: RE: Air Leak
Rico, The shuttle valves are the probably the problem. Disconnect the nose emergency line and see if air comes out the line or the valve. If the line then repeat with one of the landing gear. The shuttle valves are nothing more than two lines into the top of a “T”. the bottom of the “T” goes to the actuator. There is a little rubber ball that shuttles back and forth in the top of the “T”. They become hard and deformed over the years and when you use the emergency gear then the deformed ball does not seat the appropriate side of the “T” and thus the leak. We have some of the rubber balls if necessary. Jill has the kits to reseal the whole assembly.
George
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:16 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Replace the nose gear actuator?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Yak-List: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
01
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567890
123456789012345678
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[quote][b]
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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If the ball does not seal the emergency side (ie it is deformed) then air will go from one side to the other and leak from the emergency relief valve. Â
George
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:40 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Air Leak
George,
But if he depletes all the air in both tanks, then pressurizes the tanks through the external air fill port, then turns the main air valve on and the emergency relief valve ("fart" valve) still leaks, I would think it is more likely the emergency relief valve than a shuttle valve. No? I guess one shuttle valve could be stuck, but with zero pressure and then a full 50+ ATM's to push the ball back the other way, my suspicion would be the relief valve just won't shut off. I've had that happen once or twice before.
Dennis
From: George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 7:33:08 AM
Subject: RE: Air Leak
Rico, The shuttle valves are the probably the problem. Disconnect the nose emergency line and see if air comes out the line or the valve. If the line then repeat with one of the landing gear. The shuttle valves are nothing more than two lines into the top of a “T”. the bottom of the “T” goes to the actuator. There is a little rubber ball that shuttles back and forth in the top of the “T”. They become hard and deformed over the years and when you use the emergency gear then the deformed ball does not seat the appropriate side of the “T” and thus the leak. We have some of the rubber balls if necessary. Jill has the kits to reseal the whole assembly.
George
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:16 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Replace the nose gear actuator?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
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rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: Air Leak |
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I certainly appreciate these tips, guys! I will attempt to dig into this
this week and post my findings... THANX!
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:35 AM, George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] If the ball does not seal the emergency side (ie it is deformed) then
air will go from one side to the other and leak from the emergency relief
valve. ****
George****
** **
*From:* owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *A. Dennis Savarese
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:40 AM
*To:* yak-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Air Leak****
** **
George,
But if he depletes all the air in both tanks, then pressurizes the tanks
through the external air fill port, then turns the main air valve on and
the emergency relief valve ("fart" valve) still leaks, I would think it is
more likely the emergency relief valve than a shuttle valve. No? I guess
one shuttle valve could be stuck, but with zero pressure and then a full
50+ ATM's to push the ball back the other way, my suspicion would be the
relief valve just won't shut off. I've had that happen once or twice
before.
Dennis****
** **
------------------------------
*From:* George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com>
*To:* yak-list(at)matronics.com
*Sent:* Tue, September 4, 2012 7:33:08 AM
*Subject:* RE: Air Leak****
Rico, The shuttle valves are the probably the problem. Disconnect the nose
emergency line and see if air comes out the line or the valve. If the line
then repeat with one of the landing gear. The shuttle valves are nothing
more than two lines into the top of a “T”. the bottom of the “T” goes to
the actuator. There is a little rubber ball that shuttles back and forth in
the top of the “T”. They become hard and deformed over the years and when
you use the emergency gear then the deformed ball does not seat the
appropriate side of the “T” and thus the leak. We have some of the rubber
balls if necessary. Jill has the kits to reseal the whole assembly. ****
George****
****
*From:* owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [
mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com<owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com>]
*On Behalf Of *Rico Jaeger
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:16 AM
*To:* yak-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Air Leak****
****
Replace the nose gear actuator?****
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:****
Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or
shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:14 am Post subject: Air Leak |
|
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Yes, I do agree with that. All Rico has to do is figure out which of the 3 shuttle valves is not sealing off. If Rico had the actuators overhauled, which should have included the shuttle valves, then I think he needs to go back to the relief valve.
Rico, did you recently overhaul the actuators or have the actuators overhauled and were the shuttle valves overhauled at the same time?
Dennis
From: George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 7:59:10 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air Leak
If the ball does not seal the emergency side (ie it is deformed) then air will go from one side to the other and leak from the emergency relief valve.
George
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:40 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Air Leak
George,
But if he depletes all the air in both tanks, then pressurizes the tanks through the external air fill port, then turns the main air valve on and the emergency relief valve ("fart" valve) still leaks, I would think it is more likely the emergency relief valve than a shuttle valve. No? I guess one shuttle valve could be stuck, but with zero pressure and then a full 50+ ATM's to push the ball back the other way, my suspicion would be the relief valve just won't shut off. I've had that happen once or twice before.
Dennis
From: George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 7:33:08 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air Leak
Rico, The shuttle valves are the probably the problem. Disconnect the nose emergency line and see if air comes out the line or the valve. If the line then repeat with one of the landing gear. The shuttle valves are nothing more than two lines into the top of a “T”. the bottom of the “T” goes to the actuator. There is a little rubber ball that shuttles back and forth in the top of the “T”. They become hard and deformed over the years and when you use the emergency gear then the deformed ball does not seat the appropriate side of the “T” and thus the leak. We have some of the rubber balls if necessary. Jill has the kits to reseal the whole assembly.
George
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:16 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Replace the nose gear actuator?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:42 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Rico,
Most likely the valve you speak of is corroded inside and won't reset or shut off as it is suppose to do. You most likely will have to replace it. I personally have never tried disassembling one. But I guess it is possible. Either way, it will need to be removed.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, September 3, 2012 10:16:38 PM
Subject: Re: Air Leak
Yes - zero'd both the primary and emergency systems.
Thank you for your response!
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Have you completely drained both air systems? I'm more familiar with the CJ but I recall that the Yak system has to be completely drained before it will switch back over from the emergency system.
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:17:26 -0500
Subject: Air Leak
From: rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Greetings All! A while back my Yak 52 was test flown and at one point, the emergency air was opened. Now the air system is reluctant to switch back over to the primary system and there's an audible hiss from the relief valve immediately below the front seat / right side every time I open up the main air valve after recharging. This valve has a large escape hole on top and if I seal it w/ my thumb it seems to close the system and all is back to normal. Unfortunately, everytime I open the master valve I go back to square one w/ this process. I was told by one source that one of my actuator shuttle valves is malfunctioning. But which one? I purchased an ultrasonic listening device in an attempt to trace down the source of the leaks. In "tapping" lines on all 3 gear, the audible leak seems to resonate through all lines. It DOES seem to be noticably-louder on the nose gear line - or is this simply because that point is physically-closer to the floor-mounted escape valve? What do I do next? Anyone w/ experience in this area would be a welcome sight on my screen. Thank you for your assistance and patience, guys!
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Rob Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Air Leak |
|
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If the main & emergency air system components are all working correctly then there shouldn't be any significant air seeping out via the emergency protection (relief) valve anyway.
So IMHO I'd eliminate all the other sources of air leaks before scutinising the emergency protection (relief) valve.
Rob R
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: Air Leak |
|
|
Rico,
Since your airplane was a 'project', I think it might be a very good
idea to remove the actuators and overhaul them. The shuttle valves are
physically at the top of each of the actuators. You will save yourself
a whole lot of grief down the road by overhauling them now. Look at it
this way, which is less expensive? Overhauling all the actuators on the
airplane or potentially have one of the gear legs NOT come down when
you're getting ready to land.
BTW, don't just do the landing gear actuators and shuttle valves. Do ALL
the actuators including the uplock actuators and the flap actuator with
its two shuttle valves.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 9/4/2012 8:46 AM, Rob Rowe wrote:
| Quote: |
If the main & emergency air system components are all working correctly then there shouldn't be any significant air seeping out via the emergency protection (relief) valve anyway.
So IMHO I'd eliminate all the other sources of air leaks before scutinising the emergency protection (relief) valve.
Rob R
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382376#382376
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: Air Leak |
|
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On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Rico Jaeger <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)> wrote:
| Quote: | Dennis - No work done on the actuators or relief valve since I've owned it almost a year now. But there have been speratic air issues all along - namely the system not charging much during engine runs and an audible hiss that appears and crescendos (occasionally) AFTER shut down and AFTER master air valve is closed. But as I stated earlier, this is a major leak that was triggered by the emergency system being activated.
|
Some times a shotgun really is the right answer. If you have been having sporadic problems with your air system, it is probably time to just rebuild/replace all the check valves and shuttle valves. (And wash every line clean then blow it dry too.) Then you are starting with a pneumatic system in a known state that you can readily maintain. You would be amazed at the myriad faults that some rust flakes from a check-valve spring can cause as they work their way through the pneumatic system causing one check-valve or shuttle-valve after another to fault and then clear as the detritus moves on.
Bite the bullet. Do it right. Reap the reward.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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l29delfin(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:01 am Post subject: Air Leak |
|
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In many cases the check valve for the emergency fill is allowing some air to escape as it is not closing completely.
However I have not been able to find any source for the Romanian YAK version of the check valve new. Only rebuild kits. If someone knows where to buy the original valve new I am most interested as I have a small leak also
[quote][b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: Air Leak |
|
|
If either the check valve for the emergency fill or main fill are
leaking, you can spray soapy water on the external air fill port and see
if it bubbles. If it does, look at the air pressure instrument and the
side that is depleting is the check valve that is leaking. If the leak
is very slow, sometimes you may have to wait overnight to determine
which side is leaking by looking at the instrument. Then you will know
what check valve to attack.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 9/4/2012 12:58 PM, delfin wrote:
| Quote: | In many cases the check valve for the emergency fill is allowing some
air to escape as it is not closing completely.
However I have not been able to find any source for the Romanian YAK
version of the check valve new. Only rebuild kits. If someone knows
where to buy the original valve new I am most interested as I have a
small leak also
*
*
|
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rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: Air Leak |
|
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Where is the emergency check valve located?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:31 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>
If either the check valve for the emergency fill or main fill are leaking, you can spray soapy water on the external air fill port and see if it bubbles. If it does, look at the air pressure instrument and the side that is depleting is the check valve that is leaking. If the leak is very slow, sometimes you may have to wait overnight to determine which side is leaking by looking at the instrument. Then you will know what check valve to attack.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 9/4/2012 12:58 PM, delfin wrote:
| Quote: | In many cases the check valve for the emergency fill is allowing some air to escape as it is not closing completely.
However I have not been able to find any source for the Romanian YAK version of the check valve new. Only rebuild kits. If someone knows where to buy the original valve new I am most interested as I have a small leak also
*
*
|
============================================ties such as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
======================ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================== -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: Air Leak |
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On the inside of the fuselage right behind the external air fill port.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 9/4/2012 1:47 PM, Rico Jaeger wrote:
| Quote: | Where is the emergency check valve located?
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:31 PM, A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>> wrote:
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>>
If either the check valve for the emergency fill or main fill are
leaking, you can spray soapy water on the external air fill port
and see if it bubbles. If it does, look at the air pressure
instrument and the side that is depleting is the check valve that
is leaking. If the leak is very slow, sometimes you may have to
wait overnight to determine which side is leaking by looking at
the instrument. Then you will know what check valve to attack.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com/>
Skype - Yakguy1
On 9/4/2012 12:58 PM, delfin wrote:
In many cases the check valve for the emergency fill is
allowing some air to escape as it is not closing completely.
However I have not been able to find any source for the
Romanian YAK version of the check valve new. Only rebuild
kits. If someone knows where to buy the original valve new I
am most interested as I have a small leak also
*
*
============================================ties such as List
Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
======================ttp://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================== -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
================================
*
*
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