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Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Hello All

I am thinking of using a trailer for my Tri Gear, 

I will need to winch the aircraft onto a trailer,  nose first.

The way i see it, you can attach a 3 web straps to the inner part of the Prop, not sure if this is a good idea.?

Or straps to the tops of the undercarriage struts, but a small area of  leg fairing will will need to be removed to accommodate the straps the strap going round the top of the leg and between the brake pipe  , this seem to be a Strong place to connect to, maybe some type of bolt on towing eye affixed to the top of the legs then nylon straps to cable and winch may have been developed.

Or straps to the bottom of the undercarriage legs the fairing at this point is not in the way, nor is the brake pipe.

I don,t really want to drill and fix to the fuselage. 

Any ideas on this, Winching and  trailering. 

Regards

Alan

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

On 08/06/2012 11:27 PM, Alan Carter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am thinking of using a trailer for my Tri Gear, 

 I will need to winch the aircraft onto a trailer,  nose first.


	


Why would you want to trailer it nose first? This has several disadvantages:

1) The weight of the airplane is on the nose. Consequently, the axle of

the trailer needs do be near the front of the trailer, which makes

manouvring on the road awkward.

2) When unloading the aircraft from the trailer, you need to hold the

weight of the airplane, if you let go inadvertently you will get a

tailstrike (the airplane will tip over on its tail easily, especially

when the airplane is tilted backwards), and you also constantly need to

keep the nosewheel from castering into reverse while it is moving

"downhill in reverse" from the trailer.

3) You will need a nosewheel track all the way to the front of the

trailer. This will make it nearly impossible to use a self-tilting

trailer, and thus you will need some sort of a ramp.

4) If you have wheel fairings, they will probably hit the ground during

unloading, due to the angle of the airplane.



I have the airplane tail first on the trailer. The trailer tilts

automatically by the shift of the weight of the airplane, no ramps

needed. To tow the aircraft onto the trailer, I have made two

attachement points near the main gear. (I figure the airplane has it

strongest points near the main gear). By adjusting the lenght of each

"leg" of the resulting "V"-cable, I have made the aircraft to follow the

short track onto the trailer precisely while winching.



Frans

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Alan,

 I have been towing Europa trigears for about 10 years now.

 We have recovered aircraft out of fields, garages and airports.

 Some damaged and and in pieces.

  

 My trailer is a 22 foot car hauler with wing racks installed.

 I have a winch and adjustable wing racks for glider and short  wings. 

 I normally winch my aircraft by using my towbar.  It pulls and steers,  so pretty neat.

 For those customers that do not have a tow bar, I have a strap around the  nose gear fork spindle.  The strap goes to the winch cable and up she  goes.

  

 I prefer to pull the aircraft facing forward on my dual axel trailer.   No gust locks or anything else to keep ailerons or rudder from flapping.   After pulling thousands of miles at 70 mph.  I have no concerns.   Total cost including welding $2000.

  

 Please note that I have the following:

 A dual axel trailer (standard 60/40 balance point).

 The main gear set on the forward axel.

 Wings are centered about on the trailer.

 The trailer has a built in droop on the end so no tail strike like a  straight trailer.

 Ramps are about 3 foot long on the trailer and slide out from the  rear.

 I secure my aircraft with a cable strap around the main gear brake disk to  wheel gap.  Rings are bolted through the floor to create the cable loop  geometry.  These cables have loops are tightened by a ratchet  strap. 

 The winch pulls the aircraft forward, one ratchet strap pulls the nose gear  fork spindle aft.  Each main is held down with the cables.

 Wings clamp similar to the mono trailer and sit in a padded saddle rather  than a sling...

 I have a truck to pull the trailer which is nearly 1800 pounds  loaded.

 The trailer is very easy to reconvert back to a usable car hauler if need  be.

  

 My plane does have my custom wheel pants that are hinged so it only takes  three screws to undo the pant, flip it up out of the way and strap down the  wheel.

 I still remove my tow bar for towing once the plane is in place and I  remove my nose gear cap and put the strap on the nose gear for long trips.

  

 As for super light weight, Frans' solution is right.  

 Takes a bit of time to get it right, but he should note that the trailer  can be shorter.

 I think that for short hauls, tail first is fine.  Just make a gust  lock for the tail.

  

 There is a small picture of what my rig looks like on my website at www.customflightcreations.com   accessories..

 We have also done enclosed trailers if you so desire, but  they are more expensive.  We have made one that is air  conditioned/heated and carpeted.  Pull the plane out and fold down a cot  and nap.  Think of it as a mobile hangar.

  

 Have fun figuring your trailer ideas, I did.

  

 Bud Yerly

Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

www.customflightcreations.com

(813)  653-4989

 [quote]   ---

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:46 am Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

On 08/08/2012 05:14 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I prefer to pull the aircraft facing forward on my dual axel trailer. 


	


In the Netherlands, and I think in most of Europe, you need a special

driving licence for such a trailer. And there are restrictions on the

type of car used to tow it. Furthermore, such a trailer needs to be

registered and you can not build it yourself.



I have the required license and the required type of car, but I had to

give up on getting the custom trailer licensed. It is far easier here to

get a registration for a homebuilt airplane than for a custom built

trailer. So, I'm forced to keep the trailer unlicensed, and that means

that it is limited to a total weight of 750 Kg's (including the load)

and "single axle" (which may also be dual axle provided the axles are

adjacent to each other).



In such a situation, (especially with "one" axle) it is best to load the

airplane backwards so the trailer's axle can be close to the rear. You

are right about the rudder lock, that is really necessary, but for the

rest I don't see any disadvantages.



There is another advantage: if I unload the airplane on our local grass

strip I can just hop in and taxi away, no need to replace the trailer or

to turn the aircraft around in the grass. This is really convenient.



 	  Quote: 	
		   My plane does have my custom wheel pants that are hinged so it only

 takes three screws to undo the pant, flip it up out of the way and strap

 down the wheel.


	


Any pictures about these wheel pants?



Frans

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:44 am Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Frans,



That all sounds a bit draconian.



Here in the UK we are not restricted, and can freely build our own trailers.

(I speak from experience having built 10 trailers in my time, including my

enclosed Europa Mono trailer).



Our main restrictions are a max all up weight of 3500 Kgs provided the tow

car has a specification to tow it and properly approved tow hook assembly

and suspension plus the usual brakes on trailers over 750 Kgs and lights

etc.



Dave Watts

G-BXDY



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Hello, Frans,Bud,Dave.

Thank you all for your inputs,

Bud ,some nice photo,s your trailer looks like pretty Strong, I Hope i never need a trailer for recovering my Europa from a field.

I have bought my Europa mainly for local flying in the UK, it would be nice to fly in Europe, but if i had a problem with the aircraft away from home it would cost to much for me.

I purposely purchased a Europa as the wings could be detached and the aircraft stored off the Field, if needs be and money became short, the Europa fills this requirement.

However i hate all flying Tailplane's, they belong to jet fighters which can take lots of G.

I want a trailer Hanger, also to load nose first as i don,t want all the weight at the far end. (a good point about the Spats ,Frans)

My concern  was where to connect the tow line to the aircraft, to me the upper main gear seems to be the strongest point, but i see many are using the nose wheel with out any problems, so maybe i will use this point

to attach too.



Regards

Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Alan

Nothing wrong with all flying tails, essential on the Europa to control the change in pitch moment when the very powerful flaps are lowered. Less built in headwind too.



Graham

        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, 11 August 2012, 22:14

 Subject: Re: Winching  attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hello, Frans,Bud,Dave.

Thank you all for your inputs,

Bud ,some nice photo,s your trailer looks like pretty Strong, I Hope i never need a trailer for recovering my Europa from a field.

I have bought my Europa mainly for local flying in the UK, it would be nice to fly in Europe, but if i had a problem with the aircraft away from home it would cost to much for me.

I purposely purchased a Europa as the wings could be detached and the aircraft stored off the Field, if needs be and money became short, the Europa fills this requirement.

However i hate all flying Tailplane's, they belong to jet fighters which can take lots of G.

I want a trailer Hanger, also to load nose first as i don,t want all  the weight at the far end. (a good point about the Spats ,Frans)

My concern  was where to connect the tow line to the aircraft, to me the upper main gear seems to be the strongest point, but i see many are using the nose wheel with out any problems, so maybe i will use this point

to attach too.



Regards

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">p;                 -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Alan,

 All flying tails are powerful, easy to trim, simple to construct and give  excellent pilot feedback and can increase the CG range.  But not  intuitively obvious as to their design.  

 Barn door hinges on stabilizer/elevator are OK too, can be lighter, easier  to mount, but require more area in many cases based on CG range and tail power  required, and  when balanced, are as heavy as a flying tail.  At the  extremes of the CG range, the drag is higher on this control surface than a  stabilator.

  

 I will stick to stabs.

  

 Bud 

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Frans,

 I'll look for some pictures.  I don't have them at the home office  today.

 I've been too busy to finish the testing and market them.  Sorry,  there will be no plans as this is an across the board wheel pant that can be  applied to any aircraft.

 I've been long term testing and have drug them on the pavement, checked  brake clearance problems, brake cable routing, blown tire survivability, etc.  trying to see what will suite all types of fliers, fields etc.  We are now  testing to see how it works on rough fields, determining where clearance from  the tire and ground gives max speed vs max survival on grass  fields.  I do not like negative feedback, and I have a lot of it from  myself as it took my guys twice as long to install them than it did for me and  my initial set has stress cracks due to pounding on multiple touch and  goes.  Prototype two and three only have about 25 hours on them in the  field.

 The wheel pant has an outside, and an inside which must match well, and a  metal and nylon spacers and reinforcements, and be light weight and be  able to take ground punishment without cracks or failure.  The molds need  to be changed to meet our construction needs.  Delicate little doo dads  tend to crack and fail over the long term.  I try to make things that  are  light, well tested, durable, and easy to install.

  

 So just trying to make a buck (or at least break even).  We have to  put the marketing together.  After the elections, my medical tests are  complete, and I clear out some aircraft, I'll pull back a little to cut the  hours down and do more testing.  Then I'll do a new set of molds.  I'm  shooting for a complete trigear set of pants and gear legs, with tow bar for  $1000.  That's $20 per hour with it fitted for the Europa.  Right now  I don't like the gear leg transition to the fuselage.  Too fiddley.

  

 So after we get the Jabiru cooling mod article finished,

 Do the new cowl for the Rotax,

 Finish the new trigear step,

 Do more propeller testing,

 build two sets of glider wings with mod 78,

 and finish two kits, I'll get right on it.

  

  

 Sorry.  I just don't want to sell the wine before its time.  I  have three sets in test and want to look and see how they do in a real  world environment.  100 hours on them so far, and the third prototype is  holding up well.

  

 Bud

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Hi All.

Sorry Chaps i have never liked all flying tail planes, and for me i feel much safe with a conventional tailplane and elevators.

Stabs have been around for a long time so proven safe , How ever i know i can fly and land the conventional set up, on power and trim alone, if the elevator cable detached ,

But i have a stab so will have to live with it,  But then you could move on the the T tail like the Tomahawk , dreadful aeroplane.

But thats my opinion.

Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Alan

all depends who designed the airplane. There are badly designed tailplanes too. 

Europa was well designed. Would'nt have been good with a tailplane, handling would have been compromised

Graham



om: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>



 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, 12  August 2012, 22:12

 Subject: Re: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hi All.

Sorry Chaps i have never liked all flying tail planes, and for me i feel much safe with a conventional tailplane and elevators.

Stabs have been around for a long time so proven safe , How ever i know i can fly and land the conventional set up, on power and trim alone, if the elevator cable detached ,

But i have a stab so will have to live with it,  But then you could move on the the T tail like the Tomahawk , dreadful aeroplane.

But thats my opinion.

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=380771#380========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Eurp;  -->

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Alan,

 Please don't compare our stab to the Tramahawk!

  

 Our tail plane will operate throughout our trim and flap setting range  allowing trim and power to land only.  I occasionally  practice  power and trim alone exercises, but I haven't the courage to flare out, but in a  trigear, I'll just let it hit in a shallow descent...  

  

 I have heard the stories (of course never admitted) of Europas with no trim  tabs connected (low speed so they got a scare), trim failure (slow down and  overcome the force), one aileron operating only (big pad on the aileron quick  disconnect fell off and the pilot didn't know it until annual inspection), a  disconnected rudder cable (no squeeze nut attached and the temp nut came off)  which kept the small amount of rudder in from the spring as the pilots foot was  too big to pull the other rudder back a bit to streamline the rudder.  We  had one owner who failed to install his stab pip pin at all and as the stab  pulled out, he was at slow speed and with only one stab and a lot of flutter,  put it on the ground.  He split the fuselage due to flutter at the rear,  but survived.  But no instances of the stab tube failures.

  

 The only things to make our stab (and the Thorp T18) perfect  would be a balanced trim tab so in the event you forgot to hook up the trim  tab tube, or the stab was departing the pins, the trim tab would stay neutral as  would the stick forces but usable and there would be virtually no chance for  flutter.  Many Piper aircraft balance the stab at 30% which makes a stab  tube disconnect fatal but increases stability at the aft end of the CG  range.  Also if their trim tab becomes disconnected, the flutter is fatal  also.  So be sure to preflight your trim tabs.

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

Europa Tech Support

 Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

www.customflightcreations.com

(813)  653-4989

 [quote]   ---

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Entitled as we may be to expressing our own opinions, I learn a lot  

more from reasoned discussion of a topic than I do from hearing  

dogmatic positions in relation there to.



do not archive

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Hello Bud,

Not sure who the Dogmatic opinion is referring to, you or me ?

But without an opinion, be it even a different  opinion, we would not be discussing this subject.

As for Me, I have never built an aeroplane  except  Airfix models when i was a boy, I am now 66 years old with 25000 hours without incident, plus having flow many Types including all flying tailplane, i personally don,t like them on small aeroplans and will continue to carefully examine my Stab on all my Pre Flight Checks  .

All i want to do is continue without incident to 76 years old, and if that means asking simple or even a stupid questions on the forum to members with more technical knowledge than me i will continue to do so.

One does not have to read them, But i thank all that do read and for taking the trouble to reply, asking simple basic question may one day just save my life.

Alan

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Alan,

 It was to me, as I am the opinionated lightning rod.  

 Sounds like we both started our aviation careers the same way.   Modeling is not just fun, it was a dream.

 Hopefully 76 years is the start of your next career.  

  

 We all want to live a long and trouble free life so we keep our airplanes  and knowledge up.   

 I respect that you were looking for a means of keeping a  plane simple, and trouble free.  I like spirited opinions.   Always fun.

 I pay attention to what fails and why.  An accident investigation  background can do that to you.  Too bad I can't do a lot about  creating permanent fixes all the time. 

 There are many diverse opinions and there are many learned aviators for all  of us to brain pick.  No one has the end all solution, just workable  ones.  I'm sure you and your experiences have given you a unique  perspective on flying and planes which allows you to take  things with a grain of salt and let the water run off  your back.   

 Love to chat off line anytime if you have any questions on your stab  concerns.  I've had to fix a number of issues for owners.

  

 Regards,

 bud

  

  

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Winching attachment points to Tri Gear for Trailering

Hi Bud.

The AirFix 1/32 scale models made of plastic, had hundreds of them.

My favorite was the was the Dehaverland Mosquito, made of ply wood.

(Now i now your American Bud) but this little fighter bomber would carry the same payload as the Flying Fortress in those days due to armourment and formation  fuel , how do i know , because my neighbour now 96 use to fly them, All were brave men.

So from Plastic Models to Real Plastic Aeroplanes or( Airplanes as your spell check keeps throwing up), this was my road into aviation.

Back to the Stab, i  would like to continue on the forum in hope i get some feed back from all, as to the Why,s and Why Not,s of my questions,which may or may not appear stupid or simple, remember i have not flown for the passed 12 years, and prob ally 25 year on a light plane,but now have my new nPPL which gets us old boys back in the air , but its nice to get some help on the technical side .

Regards

Alan

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