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Landing mishap - seeking advise

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zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: Landing mishap - seeking advise

Last Monday I had a landing mishap on Texel (EHTX), resulting in a nose wheel collapse after a bounced landing.. 



Before asking my questions, I would like to express my BIG THANKS to Frans and Illona who drove their trailer up to Texel  and drove PH-MZW back by road and ferry boat to my home base. Frans and Illona, words will always fall short when describing our gratitude! Also may thanks to Tim who phoned me up offering any help I would need!



First examinations showed that propeller and nose gear leg are beyond repair. Lower cowling got some minor cracks. After I removed the cowling and the covering plate of the cockpit tunnel, I found another piece of damage: evidently the nose leg had rotated appr. 45 degrees in the nose gear leg tube, which resulted in the bump stop having pierced more or less sideways through the tunnel appr. 1" into the passenger foot well (see attached image).



My questions to the forum:



(1) How much structural strength does the pierced part of the tunnel take, and what procedure do you recommend for the repair?



(2) I am planning to have a complete new nose gear leg assembly installed. Unknown at this moment is how to check the integrity of the landing gear frame. All suggestions are welcome!



(3) Of course I will have a professional Rotax maintenance company perform shock load checks on the gearbox and the 912UL (80HP) engine. 

I think I have once read somewhere on the forum that no matter the outcome of the shock load checks, the crank bearings must be replaced. I could however not find any reference to this in the Rotax manuals. What is your idea on this?



(4) What other engine checks should be performed? Anything else you would recommend doing/checking?



(5) For a new propeller I am investigating a change from Arplast PV50 to Woodcomp SR3000/2W or SR3000/3. 

- Will any of these Woodcomps bring significantly improved performance compared to the Arplast?

- Will it make any sense to opt for a high-twist Woodcomp and will these high-twist versions be a good fit for the small 80HP 912UL?



Please be aware that changing propeller-type will force me having to go through a lengthy and costly procedure to obtain a new noise certificate from the Dutch CAA. Therefore I already decided to stick with Arplast PV50 unless a significant performance increase can be achieved. My question is a mere attempt to get a feel for what to expect...



(6) Anything I missed above that needs looking at?



Thanks very much for your advise!

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_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

Last edited by zwakie on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:58 am Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

Marcel, From recent experience I can give answers to some 

but not all of your questions:

3) & 4) There are set Rotax protocols for this. I believe 

it is advised to check the run out on the propeller shaft 

and the integrity of the gear system and if these are OK 

nothing else is needed , but if not the gear box comes off 

and you check the run out on the  crank shaft and if that 

is out of tolerance you need a new crank shaft. In any 

case a  proper Rotax authorised technician should be able 

to tell you exactly what is needed.

  5) A Woodcomp high twist Sr30003W had significant 

benefits for me when I changed from a low twist SR2000. It 

added 4kt to max speed and improved fuel economy and made 

a major difference to cooling which had always been 

something of a problem for me. I guess a SR30002W would 

have enough clout to deal with your 912 but you could 

confirm that with Woodcomp. I will send you seperately a 

copy of the article I wrote with formal comparisons 

between my SR2000 and theSR3000W.

          Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:01:54 -0700

  "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<mz(at)cariama.nl>

 

 Last Monday I had a landing mishap on Texel (EHTX), 

resulting in a nose wheel collapse after a bounced 

landing.. 

 

 Before asking my questions, I would like to express my 

BIG THANKS to Frans and Illona who drove their trailer up 

to Texel  and drove PH-MZW back by road and ferry boat to 

my home base. Frans and Illona, words will always fall 

short when describing our gratitude! Also may thanks to 

Tim who phoned me up offering any help I would need!

 

First examinations showed that propeller and nose gear 

leg are beyond repair. Lower cowling got some minor 

cracks. After I removed the cowling and the covering 

plate of the cockpit tunnel, I found another piece of 

damage: evidently the nose leg had rotated appr. 45 

degrees in the nose gear leg tube, which resulted in the 

bump stop having pierced more or less sideways through 

the tunnel appr. 1" into the passenger foot well (see 

attached image).

 

 My questions to the forum:

 

 (1) How much structural strength does the pierced part 

of the tunnel take, and what procedure do you recommend 

for the repair?

 

 (2) I am planning to have a complete new nose gear leg 

assembly installed. Unknown at this moment is how to 

check the integrity of the landing gear frame. All 

suggestions are welcome!

 

 (3) Of course I will have a professional Rotax 

maintenance company perform shock load checks on the 

gearbox and the 912UL (80HP) engine. 

 I think I have once read somewhere on the forum that no 

matter the outcome of the shock load checks, the crank 

bearings must be replaced. I could however not find any 

reference to this in the Rotax manuals. What is your idea 

on this?

 

 (4) What other engine checks should be performed? 

Anything else you would recommend doing/checking?

 

 (5) For a new propeller I am investigating a change from 

Arplast PV50 to Woodcomp SR3000/2W or SR3000/3. 

 - Will any of these Woodcomps bring significantly 

improved performance compared to the Arplast?

 - Will it make any sense to opt for a high-twist 

Woodcomp and will these high-twist versions be a good fit 

for the small 80HP 912UL?

 

 Please be aware that changing propeller-type will force 

me having to go through a lengthy and costly procedure to 

obtain a new noise certificate from the Dutch CAA. 

Therefore I already decided to stick with Arplast PV50 

unless a significant performance increase can be 

achieved. My question is a mere attempt to get a feel for 

what to expect...

 

 (6) Anything I missed above that needs looking at?

 

 Thanks very much for your advise!

 

 --------

 Marcel

 (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381254#381254

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/foto1_193.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Admin.

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:12 am Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

Hi Marcel,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Before asking my questions, I would like to express my BIG THANKS to

 Frans and Illona who drove their trailer up to Texel  and drove

 PH-MZW back by road and ferry boat to my home base.


	


It is all in the spirit of the Europa community. Maybe some day I will 

find myself in a situation where I need help, and some fellow Europa 

flyer will help me out...



 	  Quote: 	
		   (1) How much structural strength does the pierced part of the tunnel

 take, and what procedure do you recommend for the repair?


	


This is hard to tell from just a picture. It is ok to have a hole in the 

tunnel, as many of us have made for whatever purpose, but of course the 

location of the hole is critical. And a hole caused by slamming an 

object through it often has damage stretching far beyond the hole 

(invisible cracks, stretching of the material, etc). It is best to have 

someone experienced in this to take a look at it, and determine whether 

this will be a structural or cosmetic repair.



 	  Quote: 	
		   (2) I am planning to have a complete new nose gear leg assembly

 installed. Unknown at this moment is how to check the integrity of

 the landing gear frame. All suggestions are welcome!


	


The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount frame. I would 

start by checking the geometry of the propeller flange as described in 

the Europa manual. If this is still ok then it is unlikely something has 

bent.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Please be aware that changing propeller-type will force me having to

 go through a lengthy and costly procedure to obtain a new noise

 certificate from the Dutch CAA.


	


ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that specific aircraft 

type / engine / prop combination. If someone (for example in the UK) has 

already a noise certificate for that combination you can just copy the 

noise certificate.



Frans

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:24 am Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Marcel,

 You are on the right track.

 I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in Florida and will  email direct to you a FACTORY suggested inspection sequence for the  structures, what you should look for in additional damage inspections, and once  you have the inspections complete will assist in a repair method to include  layup schedules and materials to make it good as new.

  Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a proper  inspection.



 I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you soon.

  

 I have been through this on 3 different damaged aircraft repairs and we  have a bit more experience on repairing this type of damage and finding some  hidden damage.  So learn from our mistakes. (Insurance companies  require huge amounts of documentation if more is found after the final  payout is made.)  

  

 Just a heads up, normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look at  the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also.  Support of the trigear for  these inspections is a piece of cake and it only takes a day to get it  prepped for a thorough inspection but it does take a bit of gear that the club  and others can help with I'm sure for engine removal.  

 Look at it this way, you get to correct anything you didn't like and really  do a complete inspection and cleaning of the aircraft.

  

 As for engine and prop damage:

 Rotax manuals tend to be a bit vague.     

 Gear box check and prop flange check is mandatory and a proper dealer will  have the measurement tools and fixtures.

 The slipper clutch is normally replaced, the prop shaft checked for true  and the prop flange of course.  I normally have the bearings in the gearbox  replaced  if the prop really hit hard and tore up the blades.

  

 Runout on the crank is another check we have done by our Rotax Dealer as  Kerry has all the gear at hand and it is only a few more minutes to do.  My  dealer is only a couple hours away which is nice, so we can do a face to face  with them on our repairs, but that is rare.  We have never had to replace  the bearings in the engine or spun a crankshaft with a slipper clutch  installed.  On a 912 we don't have to worry as much about turbo  support problems etc. of the 914 that creep up as the small dent in the exhaust  may lead to other problems with stressed turbo supports etc.

 Glycol coolers and oil coolers can be checked by you without  difficulty.

  

 I have found that government agencies only add cost and frustration to  changes to aircraft such as the propeller changes you are considering,   however you have great folks in the club to help with what has been approved in  other countries and will transfer to your particular government  requirements.  The paperwork is the paperwork.  

  

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

Europa Tech Support

 email direct at budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)

  

 Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

www.customflightcreations.com

(813)  653-4989

 My cell direct is (813) 244-8354

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

Thanks David for the informative and well-written documentation that you sent to me directly. From it I learned that a high twist will not bring me significant improvements in terms of performance or fuel flow, and that it will have a slight negative impact on take-off performance.



That leaves (only?) one benefit of a high-twist propellor for my ship: improved cooling. Since I already decided to fight my (small) cooling issues with an oil-water exchanger from Laminowa, I do not (yet) see the point of using a high-twist propellor on my airplane.



 	  frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote: 	
		  ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that specific aircraft type / engine / prop combination. If someone (for example in the UK) has already a noise certificate for that combination you can just copy the noise certificate. 	
 

That is true PROVIDED you can submit a detailled noise-measuring report to go along with the noise-cert. The Noise Certificate by itself will be insufficient to copy it (been there, done it when I moved my plane from the UK to Dutch register)



Having read more about propellers over the weekend, I am now inclined to stick with Arplast PV50... (I wish it had some leading-edge protection, but that's another discussion)



 	  frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote: 	
		  Maybe some day I will find myself in a situation where I need help, and some fellow Europa flyer will help me out... 	


I hope you will never find yourselves in such a position, but give me a call if you do 



 	  frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote: 	
		  It is best to have someone experienced in this to take a look at it, and determine whether this will be a structural or cosmetic repair. 	
 

My guess is it will be a cosmetic repair given the position where it pierced, but I definitely want want to make sure by asking an expert. Frans, do you know anyone, perhaps yourself?



 	  frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote: 	
		  The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount frame. I would start by checking the geometry of the propeller flange as described in the Europa manual. If this is still ok then it is unlikely something has bent. 	
 

Unlikely, but not impossible, right? At least, that's what I read from Bud's  response ("Just a heads up, normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look at the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also"). 

Still, measuring the geometry seems like a sensible good first step... (I already pulled the procedure for this from the build manual)



 	  budyerly(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in Florida and will email direct to you a FACTORY suggested inspection sequence for the structures, what you should look for in additional damage inspections, and once you have the inspections complete will assist in a repair method to include layup schedules and materials to make it good as new. 	


That would be really helpfull, thanks Bud!



 	  budyerly(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a proper inspection. 	


Not the thing I would like to hear, but somehow I knew this to be the case. Certainly since I am not willing to cut corners...



 	  budyerly(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you soon. 	


Sure, thanks![/b]

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:40 pm Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

Marcel, Somewhere in that article I said that the 

calculations suggest that the high twist prop gave me the 

equivalent of  7.5 horse power, if I remember rightly, (as 

computed from CAFE calculations). Now the 914 is already 

providing lots of horsepower whereas the 912 I would have 

thought needs all the help it can get! It did in fact 

produce modest improvements in climb rate and fuel flow as 

well as the 4 kt increase in top speed, all showing that 

the high twist blade is more efficient,, and the take off 

distance was notas you say 'increased' but 'Not 

perceptibly changed'. So it is fair enough to say that it 

is too much hassle to change propeller type, but not to 

say that it would not be any improvement. Regards, David



On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:20:33 -0700

  "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<mz(at)cariama.nl>

 

 Thanks David for the informative and well-written 

documentation that you sent to me directly. From it I 

learned that a high twist will not bring me significant 

improvements in terms of performance or fuel flow, and 

that it will have a slight negative impact on take-off 

performance.

 

 That leaves (only?) one benefit of a high-twist 

propellor for my ship: improved cooling. Since I already 

decided to fight my (small) cooling issues with an 

oil-water exchanger from Laminowa, I do not (yet) see the 

point of using a high-twist propellor on my airplane.

 

 

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that 

>specific aircraft type / engine / prop combination. If 

>someone (for example in the UK) has already a noise 

>certificate for that combination you can just copy the 

>noise certificate.

 

 That is true PROVIDED you can submit a detailled 

noise-measuring report to go along with the noise-cert. 

The Noise Certificate by itself will be insufficient to 

copy it (been there, done it when I moved my plane from 

the UK to Dutch register)

 

 Having read more about propellers over the weekend, I am 

now inclined to stick with Arplast PV50... (I wish it had 

some leading-edge protection, but that's another 

discussion)

 

 

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> Maybe some day I will find myself in a situation where I 

>need help, and some fellow Europa flyer will help me 

>out...

 

 I hope you will never find yourselves in such a 

position, but give me a call if you do 

 

 

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> It is best to have someone experienced in this to take a 

>look at it, and determine whether this will be a 

>structural or cosmetic repair.

 

 My guess is it will be a cosmetic repair given the 

position where it pierced, but I definitely want want to 

make sure by asking an expert. Frans, do you know anyone, 

perhaps yourself?

 

 

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount 

>frame. I would start by checking the geometry of the 

>propeller flange as described in the Europa manual. If 

>this is still ok then it is unlikely something has bent.

 

 Unlikely, but not impossible, right? At least, that's 

what I read from Bud's  response ("Just a heads up, 

normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look at 

the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also"). 

 Still, measuring the geometry seems like a sensible good 

first step... (I already pulled the procedure for this 

from the build manual)

 

 

 budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:

> I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in 

>Florida and will email direct to you a FACTORY suggested 

>inspection sequence for the structures, what you should 

>look for in additional damage inspections, and once you 

>have the inspections complete will assist in a repair 

>method to include layup schedules and materials to make 

>it good as new.

 

 That would be really helpfull, thanks Bud!

 

 

 budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:

> Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a 

>proper inspection.

 

 Not the thing I would like to hear, but somehow I knew 

this to be the case. Certainly since I am not willing to 

cut corners...

 

 

 budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:

> I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you 

>soon.

 

 Sure, thanks!

 

 --------

 Marcel

 (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381388#381388

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

David,



I stand corrected on the take-off roll distance figures.



I perceive the expected performance increase to be too little to justify having to re-apply for a new Noise Cert. Different words, but the exact same thing you are saying. That's why I wrote I did not expect *significant* performance gains for the way that I normally fly. Rest assured, I do recognize that high twist propellers are more efficient.

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

Marcel

You might find that the Arplast is already fairly high twist. It's a good robust prop. If you speak French talk to Alain Petit,

He does speak some English. His daughter Laeticia runs the props business, (last time I was there) Her English isn't bad either.

Graham

        From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, 20 August 2012, 21:39

 Subject: Re: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

Marcel, Somewhere in that article I said that the calculations suggest  that the high twist prop gave me the equivalent of  7.5 horse power, if I remember rightly, (as computed from CAFE calculations). Now the 914 is already providing lots of horsepower whereas the 912 I would have thought needs all the help it can get! It did in fact produce modest improvements in climb rate and fuel flow as well as the 4 kt increase in top speed, all showing that the high twist blade is more efficient,, and the take off distance was notas you say 'increased' but 'Not perceptibly changed'. So it is fair enough to say that it is too much hassle to change propeller type, but not to say that it would not be any improvement. Regards, David

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:20:33 -0700

 "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)> wrote:

[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)>

 Thanks David for the informative and well-written documentation that you sent to me directly. From it I learned that a high twist will not bring me significant improvements in terms of performance or fuel flow, and that it will have a slight negative impact on take-off performance.

 That leaves (only?) one benefit of a high-twist propellor for my ship: improved cooling. Since I already decided to fight my (small) cooling issues with an oil-water exchanger from Laminowa, I do not (yet) see the point of using a high-twist propellor on my airplane.

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> ONLY if you are the first one in Europe to have that specific aircraft type / engine / prop combination. If someone (for example in the UK) has already a noise certificate for that combination you can just copy the noise certificate.

 That is true PROVIDED you can submit a detailled noise-measuring  report to go along with the noise-cert. The Noise Certificate by itself will be insufficient to copy it (been there, done it when I moved my plane from the UK to Dutch register)

 Having read more about propellers over the weekend, I am now inclined to stick with Arplast PV50... (I wish it had some leading-edge protection, but that's another discussion)

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> Maybe some day I will find myself in a situation where I need help, and some fellow Europa flyer will help me out...

 I hope you will never find yourselves in such a position, but give me a call if you do 

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> It is best to have someone experienced in this to take a look at it, and determine whether this will be a structural or cosmetic repair.

 My guess is it will be a cosmetic repair given the position where it  pierced, but I definitely want want to make sure by asking an expert. Frans, do you know anyone, perhaps yourself?

 frans(at)privatepilots.nl wrote:

> The landing gear frame is similar to the engine mount frame. I would start by checking the geometry of the propeller flange as described in the Europa manual. If this is still ok then it is unlikely something has bent.

 Unlikely, but not impossible, right? At least, that's what I read from Bud's  response ("Just a heads up, normally the gear frame gets bent and we have to look at the mounting of the frame to the fuselage also"). Still, measuring the geometry seems like a sensible good first step... (I already pulled the procedure for this from the build manual)

 budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:

> I'm putting together a bit of info at the shop here in Florida and will email direct to you a FACTORY suggested inspection  sequence for the structures, what you should look for in additional damage inspections, and once you have the inspections complete will assist in a repair method to include layup schedules and materials to make it good as new.

 That would be really helpfull, thanks Bud!

 budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:

> Removal of the engine, I am afraid, is mandatory to do a proper inspection.

 Not the thing I would like to hear, but somehow I knew this to be the case. Certainly since I am not willing to cut corners...

 budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:

> I'll send a questionnaire and request photos of you soon.

 Sure, thanks!

 --------

 Marcel

 (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381388#381388

 Un/Subscription,

 Forums!

 Admin.

&g -->   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

 	  grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote: 	
		  Marcel

You might find that the Arplast is already fairly high twist. It's a good robust prop. If you speak French talk to Alain Petit,

He does speak some English. His daughter Laeticia runs the props business, (last time I was there) Her English isn't bad either.

Graham 	


I was thinking the same about the twist for the PV50. Unfortunately the prop is in such a state now that I cannot measure the twist, I could not find technical specs for the PV50 on the internet either. Anybody out there that has the specs on the PV50 and willing ot share?

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

For comparison with others I measure twist as the 

difference between the tip and the bit 1/3 out from the 

centre. The SR300W, all turbo props, Red Bull racers and 

any old prop driven fighter will have twists of around 26 

degrees whereas SR2000s & Warp Drives have twists around 

only 12 degrees. I had assumed that the Arplast is similar 

but would be interested in an actual measurement. Regards, 

David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 02:52:30 -0700

  "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<mz(at)cariama.nl>

 

 

 grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote:

> Marcel

> You might find that the Arplast is already fairly high 

>twist. It's a good robust prop. If you speak French talk 

>to Alain Petit,

> He does speak some English. His daughter Laeticia runs 

>the props business, (last time I was there) Her English 

>isn't bad either.

> Graham

 

 I was thinking the same about the twist for the PV50. 

Unfortunately the prop is in such a state now that I 

cannot measure the twist, I could not find technical 

specs for the PV50 on the internet either. Anybody out 

there that has the specs on the PV50 and willing ot 

share?

 

 --------

 Marcel

 (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381445#381445

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

Marcel

why not glue the least damaged blade up with 5 minute epoxy, or body filler, then measure the twist?

Or talk to Alain Petit?

Graham

         From: zwakie <mz(at)cariama.nl>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2012, 10:52

 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)>

grahamsingleton(at)btinte wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Marcel

 You might find that the Arplast is already fairly high twist. It's a good robust prop. If you speak French talk to Alain Petit,

 He does speak some English. His daughter Laeticia runs the props business, (last time I was there) Her English isn't bad either.

 Graham


	


I was thinking the same about the twist for the  PV50. Unfortunately the prop is in such a state now that I cannot measure the twist, I could not find technical specs for the PV50 on the internet either. Anybody out there that has the specs on the PV50 and willing ot share?



--------

Marcel

(Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW)





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zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

David, Graham and others,



I will take it upon myself to come up with the numbers on the twist of the Arplast PV50 and publish them here in due time.

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 224

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: Landing mishap - asking for advise

You'll also need to measure the diameter for any meaningful comparison;

generally, as diameter increases, the required overall prop twist along the

blade needs to be slightly less. 

Then there's the fact that most manufactured blades in our class  of use

(e.g. Warp Drive, Arplast) start off as a larger diameter prop (with a

better amount of twist) which is then cut down to the required diameter.

This of course removes twist, usually to well below the optimum!



Duncan McF.



--

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Landing mishap - asking for advise

 	  Duncan McFadyean wrote: 	
		  You'll also need to measure the diameter for any meaningful comparison; generally, as diameter increases, the required overall prop twist along the blade needs to be slightly less.-- 	
Absolutely, goes without saying...

Update after doing more thorough checks yesterday (engine still attached, more might creep up once engine is taken off):



Additional damage found:

- Propeller hub: a fine crack (appr. 3 cm long) protruding from the inset of the prop blade that took the hardest hit. 

- Small crack in the spinner. 



No visible damage to:

- Engine mounts

- Landing gear frame 

- Fuselage around engine frame attachment points

- Any parts connected to engine, including exhaust pipes



(geometry still needs to be checked)

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

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