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A question to the American "Europeans"

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sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

NTSB issued in May a very interesting report on accidents with amateur-built airplanes compared to certified airplanes, based on detailed evaluation of the numbers behind the summary statistics:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf

 

One of their findings is that many more accidents caused by loss of control in the air happen with amateur-built than with certified airplanes, and that a high percentage is with second-hand airplanes a short time after being purchased.   NTSB points to the fact that FAA do not follow the same practice as many other countries do, in that FAA do not require a pre-approved test flight program, nor approval of a report on the test flying (only a log book entry that test flight has been completed), which in turn may cause the pilot’s operating handbook/flight manual to be lacking important airplane characteristics.

 

What the NTSB report do not say anything about, however, is mandatory transition training and check out in the specific amateur-built airplane.  Under the joint European pilot license regime (JAR-FCL), we must receive such training and have it entered in our log book.  This means that before we can fly the Europa we have built (unless approved by our CAA to perform the very first flight) we must receive such airplane-specific rating, and also before we may pilot another Europa than our own, no matter how many hours we have logged in our own plane and irrespective of all the similarities between two individual Europas.

 

Therefore the following question to the American Europeans on this forum:  Before you can legally be the pilot of ANY experimental classed, amateur-built airplane, are you not required by FAA to receive transition training/rating check-out by a pre-approved CFI or other experienced, approved person, even for flying a “sister” airplane of the same type and model that you may already be experienced in?

 

Regards,

Svein

LN-SKJ

 

  [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Svein, This isn't an answer to your question and indeed it 

comes from the wrong side of the pond, but after reading 

the report and noting that 44% of the US fatal accidents 

are realted to loss of control in the air (effectively 

stall spin accidents) it occurred to me that our 

transatlantic friends might be interested in the article 

recently published over here in the LAA mag. If taken 

seriously I believe it would savea lot of the 44% from a 

nasty end.  The pictures have been removed to (hopefully) 

allow it to travel, but no doubt you can use your 

imagination.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:46:38 +0200

  "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no> 

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   NTSB issued in May a very interesting report on 

accidents with amateur-built

 airplanes compared to certified airplanes, based on 

detailed evaluation of

 the numbers behind the summary statistics:

 

 <http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf>

 http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf

 

 

 

 One of their findings is that many more accidents caused 

by loss of control

 in the air happen with amateur-built than with certified 

airplanes, and that

 a high percentage is with second-hand airplanes a short 

time after being

 purchased.   NTSB points to the fact that FAA do not 

follow the same

 practice as many other countries do, in that FAA do not 

require a

 pre-approved test flight program, nor approval of a 

report on the test

 flying (only a log book entry that test flight has been 

completed), which in

 turn may cause the pilot's operating handbook/flight 

manual to be lacking

 important airplane characteristics.

 

 

 

 What the NTSB report do not say anything about, however, 

is mandatory

 transition training and check out in the specific 

amateur-built airplane.

 Under the joint European pilot license regime (JAR-FCL), 

we must receive

 such training and have it entered in our log book.  This 

means that before

 we can fly the Europa we have built (unless approved by 

our CAA to perform

 the very first flight) we must receive such 

airplane-specific rating, and

 also before we may pilot another Europa than our own, no 

matter how many

 hours we have logged in our own plane and irrespective 

of all the

 similarities between two individual Europas.

 

 

 

 Therefore the following question to the American 

Europeans on this forum:

 Before you can legally be the pilot of ANY experimental 

classed,

 amateur-built airplane, are you not required by FAA to 

receive transition

 training/rating check-out by a pre-approved CFI or other 

experienced,

 approved person, even for flying a "sister" airplane of 

the same type and

 model that you may already be experienced in?

 

 

 

 Regards,

 

 Svein

 

 LN-SKJ

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:28 am Post subject: Re: A question to the American

Svein,

Where did you see that the JAA FCL require specific training for flying a home built ? As far as I know, here in France, all we need to legally fly any Europa, including for its first flight, is a valid Class SEP (Single Engine Piston) Private Pilot License,  a valid class 2 medical and 3 take offs and 3 landings in an airplane of the same Class during the last 90 days. An airplane of the same class could be any single engine piston. For the monowheel, you need to have a tail-dragger and a retractable gear endorsements on your log book. For the motorglider, you need a Class TMG (touring motorglider) PPL.

Of course being legal does not mean being safe ! 

Regards

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:53 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Where do I get a Barbara (smartass)?

Will



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:08 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Svein, et. al.,



Big old Catch 22 over here in FAA land.  To do a proper checkout one must have a CFI to do the instruction.  The CFI normally will charge for their instruction time.  But one is not allowed to earn income through the use of an experimental amateur built aircraft.  So try to find a qualified CFI with experience in the transition aircraft who will do it for no charge.

I happen to have a friend who is a CFI but is not a professional flight instructor.  He has given me and others proper checkouts in various experimental amateur built aircraft for not charge.  Guys like that are darn few and far between over here.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no (sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no)> wrote:

NTSB issued in May a very interesting report on accidents with amateur-built airplanes compared to certified airplanes, based on detailed evaluation of the numbers behind the summary statistics:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf

 

One of their findings is that many more accidents caused by loss of control in the air happen with amateur-built than with certified airplanes, and that a high percentage is with second-hand airplanes a short time after being purchased.   NTSB points to the fact that FAA do not follow the same practice as many other countries do, in that FAA do not require a pre-approved test flight program, nor approval of a report on the test flying (only a log book entry that test flight has been completed), which in turn may cause the pilot’s operating handbook/flight manual to be lacking important airplane characteristics.

 

What the NTSB report do not say anything about, however, is mandatory transition training and check out in the specific amateur-built airplane.  Under the joint European pilot license regime (JAR-FCL), we must receive such training and have it entered in our log book.  This means that before we can fly the Europa we have built (unless approved by our CAA to perform the very first flight) we must receive such airplane-specific rating, and also before we may pilot another Europa than our own, no matter how many hours we have logged in our own plane and irrespective of all the similarities between two individual Europas.

 

Therefore the following question to the American Europeans on this forum:  Before you can legally be the pilot of ANY experimental classed, amateur-built airplane, are you not required by FAA to receive transition training/rating check-out by a pre-approved CFI or other experienced, approved person, even for flying a “sister” airplane of the same type and model that you may already be experienced in?

 

Regards,

Svein

LN-SKJ

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:12 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Will, Look up www.smartavionics.com It is run by Mark 

Burton ex Europa builder/pilot who also makes the CS prop 

controllers that a lot of Europas use.  Regards, David 

Joyce

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 07:52:39 -0500

  "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> wrote:

[quote] 

<wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>

 

 Where do I get a Barbara (smartass)?

 Will

 

 --

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:39 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

In Canada it's my understanding that it's just an insurance question for hull coverage - which typically is not taken until their requisite number of hours is obtained.



Cheers,

Pete

A239

Ottawa, Canada

  



On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:

[quote]  Svein, et. al.,



Big old Catch 22 over here in FAA land.  To do a proper checkout one must have a CFI to do the instruction.  The CFI normally will charge for their instruction time.  But one is not allowed to earn income through the use of an experimental amateur built aircraft.  So try to find a qualified CFI with experience in the transition aircraft who will do it for no charge.

  



I happen to have a friend who is a CFI but is not a professional flight instructor.  He has given me and others proper checkouts in various experimental amateur built aircraft for not charge.  Guys like that are darn few and far between over here.

  

     Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

  Cel: [url=tel:817-992-1117]817-992-1117[/url]

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no (sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no)> wrote:



  NTSB issued in May a very interesting report on accidents with amateur-built airplanes compared to certified airplanes, based on detailed evaluation of the numbers behind the summary statistics:

  http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf

   

One of their findings is that many more accidents caused by loss of control in the air happen with amateur-built than with certified airplanes, and that a high percentage is with second-hand airplanes a short time after being purchased.   NTSB points to the fact that FAA do not follow the same practice as many other countries do, in that FAA do not require a pre-approved test flight program, nor approval of a report on the test flying (only a log book entry that test flight has been completed), which in turn may cause the pilot’s operating handbook/flight manual to be lacking important airplane characteristics.

   

What the NTSB report do not say anything about, however, is mandatory transition training and check out in the specific amateur-built airplane.  Under the joint European pilot license regime (JAR-FCL), we must receive such training and have it entered in our log book.  This means that before we can fly the Europa we have built (unless approved by our CAA to perform the very first flight) we must receive such airplane-specific rating, and also before we may pilot another Europa than our own, no matter how many hours we have logged in our own plane and irrespective of all the similarities between two individual Europas.

   

Therefore the following question to the American Europeans on this forum:  Before you can legally be the pilot of ANY experimental classed, amateur-built airplane, are you not required by FAA to receive transition training/rating check-out by a pre-approved CFI or other experienced, approved person, even for flying a “sister” airplane of the same type and model that you may already be experienced in?

   

Regards,

  Svein

LN-SKJ

  





[b]

cjaussi(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:06 pm Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

It is my understanding that you can obtain flight training even for a PPL in your own experimental aircraft and pay the instructor.  This would be a good question to ask EAA.



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 17, 2012, at 7:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:



[quote]In Canada it's my understanding that it's just an insurance question for hull coverage - which typically is not taken until their requisite number of hours is obtained.



Cheers,

Pete

A239

Ottawa, Canada

  



On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Robert Borger <[url=mailto:rlborger(at)mac.com]rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Svein, et. al.,



Big old Catch 22 over here in FAA land.  To do a proper checkout one must have a CFI to do the instruction.  The CFI normally will charge for their instruction time.  But one is not allowed to earn income through the use of an experimental amateur built aircraft.  So try to find a qualified CFI with experience in the transition aircraft who will do it for no charge.

  



I happen to have a friend who is a CFI but is not a professional flight instructor.  He has given me and others proper checkouts in various experimental amateur built aircraft for not charge.  Guys like that are darn few and far between over here.

  

     Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

  Cel: [url=tel:817-992-1117]817-992-1117[/url]

[url=mailto:rlborger(at)mac.com]rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)[/url]

 

 

On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <[url=mailto:sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no]sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no (sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no)[/url]> wrote:



  NTSB issued in May a very interesting report on accidents with amateur-built airplanes compared to certified airplanes, based on detailed evaluation of the numbers behind the summary statistics:

  http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf

   

One of their findings is that many more accidents caused by loss of control in the air happen with amateur-built than with certified airplanes, and that a high percentage is with second-hand airplanes a short time after being purchased.   NTSB points to the fact that FAA do not follow the same practice as many other countries do, in that FAA do not require a pre-approved test flight program, nor approval of a report on the test flying (only a log book entry that test flight has been completed), which in turn may cause the pilotâ€™s operating handbook/flight manual to be lacking important airplane characteristics.

   

What the NTSB report do not say anything about, however, is mandatory transition training and check out in the specific amateur-built airplane.  Under the joint European pilot license regime (JAR-FCL), we must receive such training and have it entered in our log book.  This means that before we can fly the Europa we have built (unless approved by our CAA to perform the very first flight) we must receive such airplane-specific rating, and also before we may pilot another Europa than our own, no matter how many hours we have logged in our own plane and irrespective of all the similarities between two individual Europas.

   

Therefore the following question to the American Europeans on this forum:  Before you can legally be the pilot of ANY experimental classed, amateur-built airplane, are you not required by FAA to receive transition training/rating check-out by a pre-approved CFI or other experienced, approved person, even for flying a â€œsisterâ€ airplane of the same type and model that you may already be experienced in?

   

Regards,

  Svein

LN-SKJ

  









===================================

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

===================================

http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

rehn(at)rockisland.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

That is correct.  In USA, Part 91.319 in FAR provides for compensation for a flight instructor in your experimental aircraft.



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 17, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Curtis <cjaussi(at)gmail.com (cjaussi(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote]It is my understanding that you can obtain flight training even for a PPL in your own experimental aircraft and pay the instructor.  This would be a good question to ask EAA.



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 17, 2012, at 7:38 AM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  In Canada it's my understanding that it's just an insurance question for hull coverage - which typically is not taken until their requisite number of hours is obtained.



Cheers,

Pete

A239

Ottawa, Canada

  



On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Robert Borger < (rlborger(at)mac.com)rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Svein, et. al.,



Big old Catch 22 over here in FAA land.  To do a proper checkout one must have a CFI to do the instruction.  The CFI normally will charge for their instruction time.  But one is not allowed to earn income through the use of an experimental amateur built aircraft.  So try to find a qualified CFI with experience in the transition aircraft who will do it for no charge.

  



I happen to have a friend who is a CFI but is not a professional flight instructor.  He has given me and others proper checkouts in various experimental amateur built aircraft for not charge.  Guys like that are darn few and far between over here.

  

     Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

  Cel: [url=tel:817-992-1117]817-992-1117[/url]

 (rlborger(at)mac.com)rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen < (sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no)sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no (sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no)> wrote:



  NTSB issued in May a very interesting report on accidents with amateur-built airplanes compared to certified airplanes, based on detailed evaluation of the numbers behind the summary statistics:

  http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/SS1201.pdf

   

One of their findings is that many more accidents caused by loss of control in the air happen with amateur-built than with certified airplanes, and that a high percentage is with second-hand airplanes a short time after being purchased.   NTSB points to the fact that FAA do not follow the same practice as many other countries do, in that FAA do not require a pre-approved test flight program, nor approval of a report on the test flying (only a log book entry that test flight has been completed), which in turn may cause the pilotâ€™s operating handbook/flight manual to be lacking important airplane characteristics.

   

What the NTSB report do not say anything about, however, is mandatory transition training and check out in the specific amateur-built airplane.  Under the joint European pilot license regime (JAR-FCL), we must receive such training and have it entered in our log book.  This means that before we can fly the Europa we have built (unless approved by our CAA to perform the very first flight) we must receive such airplane-specific rating, and also before we may pilot another Europa than our own, no matter how many hours we have logged in our own plane and irrespective of all the similarities between two individual Europas.

   

Therefore the following question to the American Europeans on this forum:  Before you can legally be the pilot of ANY experimental classed, amateur-built airplane, are you not required by FAA to receive transition training/rating check-out by a pre-approved CFI or other experienced, approved person, even for flying a â€œsisterâ€ airplane of the same type and model that you may already be experienced in?

   

Regards,

  Svein

LN-SKJ

  









===================================

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

===================================

http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	






===================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: Re: A question to the American

In the US there is no regulatory requirement for specific type training

below 12,500 lbs or turbine.



There is usually an insurance issue however with coverage at a reasonable

price is no or minimal experience is an issue.



BTW the accidents in the NTSB report have been discussed before.

They are mostly in high performance AC like the Lancair family with

high wing loading, and able to shed airspeed at the momentary drop of

attention.

_________________
Ira N224XS

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: Re: A question to the American

I am a professional flight instructor and teach almost every day.  It was interesting when I applied for my airplane insurance. The company wanted me to have three hours in make and model.  I put the word out on the web asking for somebody to give me the three hours.  I'd paid for the gas, but the only response was from Bud.  The trip out to Florida would have cost me at lease a thousand dollars.  Figure three days, one out and one back then one day for the flight.   After not getting any local help I called the Insurance company and explained my problem.  They changed the three flight hours to three hours of ground training.  I talked to Bud and took off on my first flight with the understanding that I might not have insurance for the first three hours. 



As an Instructor I have to have five hours of flight time in any aircraft that I give instruction in.  Getting those five hours have been difficult.   My hangar mate has a Cozy IV and he has asked me to fly it for the first flight, but I don't have the time in the plane plus the insurance company is requiring 25 hours of time.



In the U.S. the insurance requirements are the main issue.  Some of the better Experiential airplane company have a team of pilots that give the would be owner the training.  I went up to VAN's and got an hour in an RV-8.  Love it.  The pilot that I flew with had over a thousand hours in the RV-8 and the like products.  



I have offered my services to Bud, but I don't have the mono wheel training in the Europa.  Mine is a tri- gear.  Then there is the conventional  gear Europa.  

I have over 13 thousand hours in helicopters and airplanes.  I have been to a number of accident sites of homebuild's and went through the FAA school on home build aircraft.  It was fun as the instructors did not like the home build aircraft and made it know during class.  The biggest problem is with the builder pilot.  They have been building the aircraft for 3 to 10 years.  They want to get it flying.  They have not followed the AC's.  They are not current.  The aircraft as not been inspected by enough people.   I believe I had over ten people look at my plane and I'm and A&P/AI.  Each one found something that need attention.  A lot of the pilots flight skills are not up to the level that they should be. They have not taken advantage of the EAA Tech Councilor program or the Flight Advisor program.



We had one EAA member sell his RV-6 and he offered to give the guy some flight training in the plane before he took it home.  He refused the training. He crashed the plane on landing at his home base.



I give a class every year at the EAA West Coast flight in on "First Flight"  I only get about ten people each year.  It was great this year, as that morning, I had taken my first flight in the Europa.  It only lasted six minutes, but I had flown it.

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Rick-



When I explained to my insurance company that I could not get Europa time, they let me fly a Liberty for 2 hours, instead of the Europa.  Going from the Liberty to the Europa is like moving from a Mac truck to a Porsche.  I understand perfectly what you are saying.  I now have about 10 hours in my Europa but have not flown it for four months and will try to get some more dual before I fly it again.  I did something highly illegal and went around the patch a few times with an experienced Europa CFI in my plane before I flew it.  The current structure of the law is just not safe.  I'd sure like to see EAA lobby for some better regulations for the transition.  

Jim Puglise

N283JL



From: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:52:15 PM

Subject: Re: A question to the American "Europeans"



--> Europa-List message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>



I am a professional flight instructor and teach almost every day.  It was interesting when I applied for my airplane insurance. The company wanted me to have three hours in make and model.  I put the word out on the web asking for somebody to give me the three hours.  I'd paid for the gas, but the only response was from Bud.  The trip out to Florida would have cost me at lease a thousand dollars.  Figure three days, one out and one back then one day for the flight.   After not getting any local help I called the Insurance company and explained my problem.  They changed the three flight hours to three hours of ground training.  I talked to Bud and took off on my first flight with the understanding that I might not have insurance for the first three hours. 



As an Instructor I have to have five hours of flight time in any aircraft that I give instruction in.  Getting those five hours have been difficult.   My hangar mate has a Cozy IV and he has asked me to fly it for the first flight, but I don't have the time in the plane plus the insurance company is requiring 25 hours of time.



In the U.S. the insurance requirements are the main issue.  Some of the better Experiential airplane company have a team of pilots that give the would be owner the training.  I went up to VAN's and got an hour in an RV-8.  Love it.  The pilot that I flew with had over a thousand hours in the RV-8 and the like products.  



I have offered my services to Bud, but I don't have the mono wheel training in the Europa.  Mine is a tri- gear.  Then there is the conventional  gear Europa.  

I have over 13 thousand hours in helicopters and airplanes.  I have been to a number of accident sites of homebuild's and went through the FAA school on home build aircraft.  It was fun as the instructors did not like the home build aircraft and made it know during class.  The biggest problem is with the builder pilot.  They have been building the aircraft for 3 to 10 years.  They want to get it flying.  They have not followed the AC's.  They are not current.  The aircraft as not been inspected by enough people.   I believe I had over ten people look at my plane and I'm and A&P/AI.  Each one found something that need attention.  A lot of the pilots flight skills are not up to the level that they should be. They have not taken advantage of the EAA Tech Councilor program or the Flight Advisor program.



We had one EAA member sell his RV-6 and he offered to give the guy some flight training in the plane before he took it home.  He refused the training. He crashed the plane on landing at his home base.



I give a class every year at the EAA West Coast flight in on "First Flight"  I only get about ten people each year.  It was great this year, as that morning, I had taken my first flight in the Europa.  It only lasted six minutes, but I had flown it.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com;              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.========



 [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Jim,



I did the same thing in my Monowheel.  I read the FARs and interpreted them as this was OK.  You can only have those crew on board who are necessary for the safe completion of the flight.  I saw a CFI as being necessary for the safe completion of the flight.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:34 PM, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net (jimpuglise(at)comcast.net) wrote:

Rick-



When I explained to my insurance company that I could not get Europa time, they let me fly a Liberty for 2 hours, instead of the Europa.  Going from the Liberty to the Europa is like moving from a Mac truck to a Porsche.  I understand perfectly what you are saying.  I now have about 10 hours in my Europa but have not flown it for four months and will try to get some more dual before I fly it again.  I did something highly illegal and went around the patch a few times with an experienced Europa CFI in my plane before I flew it.  The current structure of the law is just not safe.  I'd sure like to see EAA lobby for some better regulations for the transition.  

Jim Puglise

N283JL

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

As you said very informative post, and something to think about for those of

us

Getting close to getting in the air. In Australia our babies have a placard

fitted

Stating the aircraft is "Experimental" and not required to meet normal

airworthiness standards.



Regards and good building



craig

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Bob- 

  

That is what we figured we would tell the FAA if we were checked.  Better to ask forgiveness than permission. 

  

Jim 



 

   

From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger(at)mac.com>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:55:47 PM

Subject: Re: Re: A question to the American "Europeans"



Jim, 



 I did the same thing in my Monowheel.  I read the FARs and interpreted them as this was OK.  You can only have those crew on board who are necessary for the safe completion of the flight.  I saw a CFI as being necessary for the safe completion of the flight.

 

   Blue skies & tailwinds,

 Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)





  On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:34 PM, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net (jimpuglise(at)comcast.net) wrote:

  Rick- 



 When I explained to my insurance company that I could not get Europa time, they let me fly a Liberty for 2 hours, instead of the Europa.  Going from the Liberty to the Europa is like moving from a Mac truck to a Porsche.  I understand perfectly what you are saying.  I now have about 10 hours in my Europa but have not flown it for four months and will try to get some more dual before I fly it again.  I did something highly illegal and went around the patch a few times with an experienced Europa CFI in my plane before I flew it.  The current structure of the law is just not safe.  I'd sure like to see EAA lobby for some better regulations for the transition.  

 



 Jim Puglise

 N283JL



 [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: A question to the American "Europeans"

Jim,



We actually had a visit from someone from the local FSDO.  Explained to him what we were doing in those terms and the fellow kinda shrugged and said it made sense to him.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 19, 2012, at 4:11 PM, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net (jimpuglise(at)comcast.net) wrote:

Bob-



 That is what we figured we would tell the FAA if we were checked.  Better to ask forgiveness than permission.



 Jim 





From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:55:47 PM

Subject: Re: Re: A question to the American "Europeans"



Jim,

I did the same thing in my Monowheel.  I read the FARs and interpreted them as this was OK.  You can only have those crew on board who are necessary for the safe completion of the flight.  I saw a CFI as being necessary for the safe completion of the flight.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)





On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:34 PM, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net (jimpuglise(at)comcast.net) wrote:

Rick-



When I explained to my insurance company that I could not get Europa time, they let me fly a Liberty for 2 hours, instead of the Europa.  Going from the Liberty to the Europa is like moving from a Mac truck to a Porsche.  I understand perfectly what you are saying.  I now have about 10 hours in my Europa but have not flown it for four months and will try to get some more dual before I fly it again.  I did something highly illegal and went around the patch a few times with an experienced Europa CFI in my plane before I flew it.  The current structure of the law is just not safe.  I'd sure like to see EAA lobby for some better regulations for the transition.  

Jim Puglise

N283JL



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