 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
|
 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: washout/trim |
 |
|
The Kolb MkIIIc/912ULS I have has a strong tendency to turn left. The bungee cord does a fair job of countering that, but I'd like to effect a bit more nominal solution.
So, I have TWO questions:
1) I'm thinking about adding an aileron trim. Can anyone suggest approaches to doing that, suggest methods/materials, and maybe even details on how to do it.
2) I've been told by at least two people, "oh, check your washout!" as if to say that might solve my strong-left-turning-tendency. And although I have a very general idea what washout is, I would have no idea about how to MEASURE it and then, if were "wrong", how to correct it.
Any constructive comments?
-- Robert
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: washout/trim |
|
|
I just realized that I didn't describe my problem correctly. The MkIII does "turn left", it banks left. In other words, if I apply right aileron enough to keep the wings level, then the plane flies fairly straight. So, it's not rudder correction I need (I think), it's aileron..... I think.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: washout/trim |
|
|
Aileron trim is the easy way to go. A foot long tab (along the
aileron) that is only perhaps an inch
wide would be less conspicuous than my shorter/more stickinout
temporary/permanent
style.
I do intend, after more important matters, to eliminate it. Either by
angle of attack
(washout/in) or some tailfeather adjustment.
Without messing with the front spar attach parts you can create some
offset
at the rear attach universal joint. That point can also adjust sweep
angle
with a spacer at the face of the frame mating junction.
-BB
On 12, Jan 2006, at 3:55 PM, rlaird wrote:
| Quote: |
The Kolb MkIIIc/912ULS I have has a strong tendency to turn left. The
bungee cord does a fair job of countering that, but I'd like to effect
a bit more nominal solution.
So, I have TWO questions:
1) I'm thinking about adding an aileron trim. Can anyone suggest
approaches to doing that, suggest methods/materials, and maybe even
details on how to do it.
2) I've been told by at least two people, "oh, check your washout!"
as if to say that might solve my strong-left-turning-tendency. And
although I have a very general idea what washout is, I would have no
idea about how to MEASURE it and then, if were "wrong", how to correct
it.
Any constructive comments?
-- Robert
--------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
MkIIIc/912ULS
Houston, TX
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3382#3382
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kiwimick
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: washout/trim |
|
|
Rob,
The MkIII wing should be built with no washout.
I asked TNK to produce some larger Rear wing attach brackets for the
European market which they have done.
The reason for this was that if a wing was built with a twist it would not
fly wings level, and if flown solo it will also fly with one wing down, the
new brackets allow you to alter the angle of attack of each wing seperately,
so you can fine tune the aircraft by adding washers in these brackets until
the wings stay level. No bungees or trim tabs needed. This works very well.
Contact TNK if you like, they will have them in stock.
Mike
Xtra/Jab 2200
---
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England....... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: washout/trim |
|
|
Hey Robert,
My FSII has a trim tab on the right aileron, installed according to the
plans which show that it's riveted to a pair of the 'ribs' in the aileron
(if I'm remembering the attachment correctly here at work). This one is made
out of clear lexan, I'll try to get some closeup pics of it next time I'm
out at the airport and remember to bring my camera.
It also has a rudder trim tab as well, which produces coordinated flight at
cruise power (and a moderate slip to the left at idle power), it also is
riveted to the rudder as per a description in the plans.
So yes you can add them.
If your plane is anything like my Firestar, there should be very little roll
coupling with the rudder (i.e. not much tendency to roll when yawed), so
timming should be fairly straightforward. I.e. trim out the roll with the
aileron tab, and trim out yaw at typical cruise power with the rudder trim
tab.
As far as washout, that refers to a twist in the wing panel such that the
outboard part flies at a lower AOA than the inboard (main purpose is to
prevent 'tip stalling'). However, according to some Kolb documentation that
came with my plane, no washout is used in the Kolb wings (at least there
isn't any in mine) and a low-aspect ratio was chosen for stability instead.
So, that is probably not something you need or want to try to adjust.....
Like I said, I'll try to get some pics of my trim tabs and get them posted
ASAP. I need to post pics in general of this plane anyway since it's a
cream-puff. The original builder is one of these guys who absolutely details
every plane he builds (you should see this Rans he built to replace the Kolb
before he sold it to me!) and this thing just looks like a showplane even
after almost 500 hours of operation....
Even these trim tabs are like jewelry....
I wish I could brag that I built it, but oh well....
LS
N646F
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HShack(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: washout/trim |
|
|
In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:08:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
slyck(at)frontiernet.net writes:
Without messing with the front spar attach parts you can create some
offset
at the rear attach universal joint.
After changind cages on my FS II, I had a right turn that I came close to
correcting with John Hauck's bunjii method. Didn't like the looks of it, so
ordered the wider rear universal joint from TNK [$75 incl. frt.]. Allows raising
or lowering the rear of the wing by about 1/4".
Not enough in my case, as I still have a slight turn to R. Think I'll order
another one & put it on the other side. Not sure why I had the turn, as the
wing incidences, using my Warp Drive protractor, were the same.
If your incidence is way off, I bet TNK would be willing to fabricate up a
bracket to give 1/2" adjustment up or down.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Jung
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: washout/trim |
|
|
Robert,
Washout refers to a twist that some wings have so that the wing tips will stall last, maintaining the best control trought stall. Our Kolbs wings are flat, if built per plans, so washout should not apply. What can happen is that one wing may be at a different incidence than the other. This could have been caused by the builder or by what I will call "an aggressive landing". In either case, it can be checked by comparing the wing incidence at four points, without moving the plane. You want to measure the wing tips and the wing roots. Level the wings, side to side, and raise the tail up about 3 feet. Use a four foot level, and holding it level and up under the trailing edge, measure and record the distance from the front to the underside of the wing. If the two readings on the same wing are not the same, you may some twist. If one wing is different than the other, you have an incidence problem that can be adjusted, by methods that others have discussed.
If you don't find any significant differences, then you just need a trim tab. No matter how careful we build them, it doesn't take much to cause the need for a trim tab.
I flew mine for years before adding trim tabs, then wondered why I waited so long. It is nice to have it fly straight without having to hold a constant correction.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
I want to see this plane. I also would like to see the trim tabs as I am working on a trim tab system of my own and want to see what everyone else has done.