Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RotaxEngines-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

JohnF

Joined: 13 May 2010
Posts: 124

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few  days ago when turning the start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to  "jam" and didn't turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I  suspected a low battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything. This  morning again with as fully charged battery it did the same thing, but started  right up on second try.

  

 I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and  everything was normal; prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal  happening on two consecutive starts.

  

 I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth  are hitting, rather than meshing, with the engine. 

  

 Not to sure what to make of this.

  

 John

   [quote][b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

John:



I have seen and heard this on other types of engines.  Here is what I would check:

Is the started lubricated properly?  Properly does not mean with the recommended lubricant.  I find a VERY thin lube of Moly Grease works extremely well and lasts for years.  NOTE:  More is NOT better - A VERY thin coat. 
Is the started secure in the mounting?  Some starters have locking tabs under the mounting nuts & bolts.  And I use Loctite Blue in addition.
Is the starter ring gear secure?  Or better question would be are the mounting holes deformed?  If they are deformed the ring gear could be off by just enough so the starter hits the teeth. 
ELECTRICAL - Check all the connections... Do NOT just look.  Remove the connection, clean all the connection install NEW Star Washers and torque properly.  I should have made this item 1, since it is the most prominent. 
STARTER RELAY - Checking ALL the electrical from above and continue to check the Starter Relay.  A poor connection will result in exactly what you describe.  A relay with carboned internal contacts will also show the same conditions.  On the first attempt the carbon is too much and poor contact results and the starter receives a weak voltage.  On the second try the carbon has been arced through or knocked off and a better contact is made...  Engine starts, but there is carbon left behind and the problem repeats.  Time for a new Starter Relay. 
STARTER SWITCH - Since you are doing all the work and for S&G's, mite as well check the Starter Switch - A little Contact Cleaner.OK - You checked and done it all.  Go FLY.

 Barry



On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, JohnF <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us (n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us)> wrote:

[quote]        117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few  days ago when turning the start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to  "jam" and didn't turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I  suspected a low battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything. This  morning again with as fully charged battery it did the same thing, but started  right up on second try.

  

 I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and  everything was normal; prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal  happening on two consecutive starts.

  

 I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth  are hitting, rather than meshing, with the engine. 

  

 Not to sure what to make of this.

  

 John

    	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

JohnF,



You said that it occurred again when the battery was fully charged. Do you have a volt meter in your airplane? If not, after fully charging the battery, before you try starting it in the morning, disconnect the charger and put a multi-meter (V-Ohm) meter on the battery to see what the actual voltage is. 



For a 12 volt lead acid battery the charge states are indicated by the following approximate voltages:



volts     charge-state

12.7+   100%

12.4       75%

12.2       50%

12.0       25%

11.8         0%



If your battery does not come up to at least 12.4 volts, it is probably ready for replacement. To keep them in good shape, a battery tender should be used during periods when the airplane is not flown often.



Almost forgot. Check the eletrolyte level too.

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

JohnF:



As a follow up to Thom's suggestion:

Voltage checking will put you in the ball park but, you have to identify the type of battery you are using.  Is it a:

Wet Cell

 Aircraft Wet Cell

Sealed Battery

Aircraft Sealed Battery

If it is a Wet Cell then the method of testing should be a Hydrometer.  

They tell so much, even by just by looking at the color of the electrolyte you can get information on the condition of the battery.  Clear is good - Brown is Bad.

 Reading the Specific Gravity (SG) will tell you the charge.

Why do I mention Aircraft Battery Vs just Battery?  Because the SG of the electrolyte is different between the two.  The Aircraft Battery has a higher SG.

 AND therefore a Higher Voltage if you use a voltmeter.  With Aircraft you could read a higher voltage while the condition (Amperage) of the battery is poor.  This is true for comparison  between both batteries and even types Wet Vs Sealed.

 



Next method of testing and probably the best is a load test.  

Now, there are different types of load test equipment out there.  You could go with the old favorite Resistor Bank which puts a heavy duty load on the battery and returns a meter reading of condition.  They are big, bulky and require a cool down between uses.  And deplete the charge in the battery.  So after you check the battery you should re-charge the battery.  OLD SCHOOL but it does work.

 New School - I have been very satisfied with a simple digital unit that is offered by Harbor Freight that gives you Voltage, % of Life, Condition and INTERNAL RESISTANCE.  The internal resistance is very important.  It tells the condition and if the battery is capable of taking and holding a charge.  It also give you an idea of how many years you have left on the battery.  

 



The idea of a battery tender is a great idea as long as you have AC at your plane.  If you are like me and are tied down without AC - You can still do the battery tending with a Solar Panel.  How big a solar panel?  In this case use the American Theory - Bigger is Better.  I found a 5 Amp panel and ordered a controller for it.  Yes, you can over charge with a solar panel if the current is high enough, ergo the controller.  Mine hooks directly to the battery through an all rubber trailer hitch plug & jack.

 



BUT!  Perform the series of test I sent.  As the saying goes: There are no mechanics in a can.  You just have to find and eliminate the problem through procedure and dirty hands.

 



Barry

PS

I would rather get my hands dirty on a plane than a car.  GAUD I hate cars.  All they have to do is get me to the plane and I have more problems with them than planes.  

 



On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, JohnF <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us (n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us)> wrote:

 [quote]       117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few  days ago when turning the start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to  "jam" and didn't turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I  suspected a low battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything. This  morning again with as fully charged battery it did the same thing, but started  right up on second try.

  

 I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and  everything was normal; prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal  happening on two consecutive starts.

  

 I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth  are hitting, rather than meshing, with the engine. 

  

 Not to sure what to make of this.

  

 John

    	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

JohnF

Joined: 13 May 2010
Posts: 124

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

FlyaDive and Thom,

  

 I have a hangar with power...will check battery  terminal voltage and see how it compares to Thom's data...I have thinking about  this problem and now lean toward thinking it MIGHT be the starter relay because  of a clicking-like sound  when the problem arises.  I plan  to remove, clean and re-tighten all connections from the battery to the starter  relay and then on to the starter itself...will do this today and report results.  

  

 Thanks for the help 

  

 John

 [quote]   ---

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

mortweaver(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

You should also insure that there is only a minimal voltage drop offered by battery cables and connectors.  Put a remote starter switch on the firewall mounted starter solenoid so that you can manually operate the starter with ignition off.  With a volt meter connected from starter input to ground, monitor the actual voltage present at the starter input terminal during cranking of engine.  12 volt starters require a minimum of 9.0-9.5 volts across the primary motor winding to avoid "stall".  A connection that is causing as much as .50 volt drop in a high current carrying circuit will also become hot to the touch (good idea to touch connectors as a practical test for high resistance connection).  The test just described is commonly used by competent automotive technicians, when diagnosing sluggish automotive starters, prior to replacing either starter or battery.  To the untrained observer, a  starter motor in stall mode will send current toward infinity and pull battery voltage down...often resulting in misdiagnosis.  The auto owner will often end up being told that both starter and battery are defective!  

  

 The Sky-Tec starter has greatly improved cold weather starting for my 912 UL Rotax engine.  This starter is on steroids when I turn the ignition key.  Last winter I made one ski trip to Bessemer in upper Michigan. When I returned to the airport, I had no concerns about engine cranking speed on engine start up.  The engine fired up immediately and I was on my way for the return trip home.

 Dave Weaver 



--- On Wed, 10/10/12, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2012, 7:05 AM



 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>



JohnF,



You said that it occurred again when the battery was fully charged. Do you have a volt meter in your airplane? If not, after fully charging the battery, before you try starting it in the morning, disconnect the charger and put a multi-meter (V-Ohm) meter on the battery to see what the actual voltage is. 



For a 12 volt lead acid battery the charge states are indicated by the following approximate voltages:



volts     charge-state

12.7+   100%

12.4       75%

12.2       50%

12.0       25%

11.8         0%



If your battery does not come up to at  least 12.4 volts, it is probably ready for replacement. To keep them in good shape, a battery tender should be used during periods when the airplane is not flown often.



--------

Thom Riddle

Buffalo, NY (9G0)



Kolb Slingshot SS-021

Jabiru 2200A #1574



Diamond Katana DA20-A1

Rotax 912 F3



Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long. 

- Anonymous





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?prchive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, ; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rotaxsp;              - MATRONICS WEB FOnbsp;                   -Matt Dralle, List m/contribution" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/con=================





	


 [quote][b]

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity

A poor ground and or corrosion will also cause this. Of course a bad relay too. Do the cheap things first.

- The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RotaxEngines-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum