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Right Angle Fast-on

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Michael Wynn

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: San Ramon, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:22 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

Hi all,

    

   I am installing an electronic ignition in my RV 8 and have a place where a coax wire is split to two fast-on's and then into a coil.  The turn is a right angle.  Someone posted on VAF that the right angle bend caused the wire to fatigue at the fast-on and fail.  They suggested re-routing the wires so that the right angle is eliminated.  I have looked at my installation and can do that, but it will require a lot of brou-ha.  The question is, does anyone make a right angle adaptor for fast-ons?  Something like a female end, right angle, male end so you could plug one into the coil and then the coax into the adaptor.  I am not sure how you would crimp one that was just a right angle.  The other option is to crimp it and then bend the fast-on 90 degrees.  I am afraid that would weaken the connector in an unacceptable manner.

    

   Thoughts?

    

   Michael Wynn

   RV 8 Finishing 

   San Ramon, CA

   

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Michael Wynn
RV 8
San Ramon, CA

james(at)etravel.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

Hi Michael,Â 



I think I see what you're saying...Â 

Could you introduce an extra loop of coax shortly before the two connectors, so that the mechanical stress and vibration Â is taken out of the bend -- like the loop you might put into a copper capillary line from the engine to the panel?Â 

 



Alternatively, is there some way of forcing the 90 bend in the coax into a particular shape with some mechanical support? Â In bonsai you wrap thick copper wire around young branches to guide them, and it strikes me that something similar might be fashioned for your coax?

 



FWIW.Â 



James





On 8 October 2012 18:20, Michael Wynn <mlwynn(at)aol.com (mlwynn(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote] Hi all,

   Â 

   I am installing an electronic ignition in my RV 8 and have a place where a coax wire is split to two fast-on's and then into a coil.Â  The turn is a right angle.Â  Someone posted on VAF that the right angle bend caused the wire to fatigue at the fast-on and fail.Â  They suggested re-routing the wires so that the right angle is eliminated.Â  I have looked at my installation and can do that, but it will require a lot of brou-ha.Â  The question is, does anyone make a right angle adaptor for fast-ons?Â  Something like a female end, right angle, male end so you could plug one into the coil and then the coax into the adaptor.Â  I am not sure how you would crimp one that was just a right angle.Â  The other option is to crimp it and then bend the fast-on 90 degrees.Â  I am afraid that would weaken the connector in an unacceptable manner.

    Â 

   Thoughts?

   Â 

   Michael Wynn

   RV 8 Finishing 

   San Ramon, CA

   

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

At 01:04 PM 10/8/2012, you wrote:

 Hi Michael,Â 



 I think I see what you're saying...Â 



 Could you introduce an extra loop of coax shortly before the two connectors, so that the mechanical stress and vibration Â is taken out of the bend -- like the loop you might put into a copper capillary line from the engine to the panel?Â 



 Alternatively, is there some way of forcing the 90 bend in the coax into a particular shape with some mechanical support? Â In bonsai you wrap thick copper wire around young branches to guide them, and it strikes me that something similar might be fashioned for your coax?



 FWIW.Â 



 James



 

   Good thought. I was going to ask if he could "drive past"

   the termination points on the coils and then do a 270-degree

   turn to bring the fast-ons back around to the coils with a more

   generous bend relief. Say about 2" diameter circle?



   I'm really sorry that this system got coax cable speced into

   it. Klaus and I got into a little tiff some years back when

   I suggested ordinary tefzel shielded wire . . . MUCH more

   user friendly. Got into a 'discussion' about nano-second

   rise time differences between coax and shielded wire.

   IMHO insignificant to the design goal of lighting fires

   in the cylinders. The measurable and demonstrable difference

   between coax and shielded wire STILL left the system

   about 100 times better than a magneto . . . which

   runs the engine just fine but with fixed timing. Be

   that as it may, your choices are restricted by

   the selection of wire between power supply and the

   coils.



 

   There ARE right angle fast-on terminals

 

 [img]http://i.ebayimg.com/t/100-PCS-22-18-AWG-NYLON-FEMALE-FLAG-TERMINAL-RIGHT-ANGLE-ELECTRICAL-CONNECTOR-/00/s/ODg5WDE0MzI=/,iME+QBErs-NBP6lN4UNt60_1.JPG[/img]  [img]cid:.0[/img]



 But they are not PIDG and I'd be reluctant to use them

 under the cowl.



 

   Bob . . .

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JLuckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

Michael,   

   

Would something like pictured here: http://www.elliottelectric.com/Products/Detail.aspx?v=TAB&c=RA18250A  

Do what you want?   

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Wynn

 Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 10:21

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Right Angle Fast-on  

  

     

Hi all,  

    

   

    

I am installing an electronic ignition in my RV 8 and have a place where a coax wire is split to two fast-on's and then into a coil.  The turn is a right angle.  Someone posted on VAF that the right angle bend caused the wire to fatigue at the fast-on and fail.  They suggested re-routing the wires so that the right angle is eliminated.  I have looked at my installation and can do that, but it will require a lot of brou-ha.  The question is, does anyone make a right angle adaptor for fast-ons?  Something like a female end, right angle, male end so you could plug one into the coil and then the coax into the adaptor.  I am not sure how you would crimp one that was just a right angle.  The other option is to crimp it and then bend the fast-on 90 degrees.  I am afraid that would weaken the connector in an unacceptable manner.  

    

   

    

Thoughts?  

    

   

    

Michael Wynn  

    

RV 8 Finishing   

    

San Ramon, CA  

    

   

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 10/08/12    [quote][b]

Michael Wynn

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: San Ramon, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

Thank you all for your insights.  I have scratched my head about this  a bunch.  I don't really have two inches from the baffle to coils.  It  is a little late to try to put them in a different spot.  Too much  re-engineering.  Considering what Bob is saying about the  discussion with Klaus, maybe I should terminate the coax an inch or two away and  crimp or solder on a short piece of 18 gauge tefzel and us that to make the  bend.  Add a couple of supports and I should be okay.  Does that seem  reasonable?

  

 Regards,

  

 Michael Wynn

 RV 8 Finishing

 San Ramon, CA

  

  In a message dated 10/8/2012 12:22:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  [img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]At    01:04 PM 10/8/2012, you wrote:

Hi Michael,Â 



I think I see what    you're saying...Â 



Could you introduce an extra loop of coax shortly    before the two connectors, so that the mechanical stress and vibration Â is    taken out of the bend -- like the loop you might put into a copper capillary    line from the engine to the panel?Â 



Alternatively, is there some way    of forcing the 90 bend in the coax into a particular shape with some    mechanical support? Â In bonsai you wrap thick copper wire around young    branches to guide them, and it strikes me that something similar might be    fashioned for your coax?



FWIW.Â 



James

  Good    thought. I was going to ask if he could "drive past"

  the termination    points on the coils and then do a 270-degree

  turn to bring the    fast-ons back around to the coils with a more

  generous bend relief.    Say about 2" diameter circle?



  I'm really sorry that this system    got coax cable speced into

  it. Klaus and I got into a little tiff    some years back when

  I suggested ordinary tefzel shielded wire . . .    MUCH more

  user friendly. Got into a 'discussion' about    nano-second

  rise time differences between coax and shielded    wire.

  IMHO insignificant to the design goal of lighting    fires

  in the cylinders. The measurable and demonstrable    difference

  between coax and shielded wire STILL left the    system

  about 100 times better than a magneto . . . which

     runs the engine just fine but with fixed timing. Be

  that as it may,    your choices are restricted by

  the selection of wire between power    supply and the

  coils.

  There ARE right angle    fast-on terminals



[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/t/100-PCS-22-18-AWG-NYLON-FEMALE-FLAG-TERMINAL-RIGHT-ANGLE-ELECTRICAL-CONNECTOR-/00/s/ODg5WDE0MzI=/,iME+QBErs-NBP6lN4UNt60_1.JPG[/img]     



But they are not PIDG and I'd be reluctant to use    them

under the cowl.



   

  Bob . . .

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_________________
Michael Wynn
RV 8
San Ramon, CA

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

At 08:45 PM 10/8/2012, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Thank you all for your insights.  I have scratched my head about this a bunch.  I don't really have two inches from the baffle to coils.  It is a little late to try to put them in a different spot.  Too much re-engineering.  Considering what Bob is saying about the discussion with Klaus, maybe I should terminate the coax an inch or two away and crimp or solder on a short piece of 18 gauge tefzel and us that to make the bend.  Add a couple of supports and I should be okay.  Does that seem reasonable? 	


  I wouldn't do that. All coax or all shielded. At the time

  I published this Shop Note



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG58/RG58.html



  several folks had already replaced RG-58 (suffering

  from temperature effects under the cowl) with Tefzel

  shielded wire and were satisfied with the results.



  I can't speak to the value of sparks jumping 1.5"

  gaps between coil towers but if that's a performance

  benchmark, be aware that shielded wire substitution

  may pollute that particular test result.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

Hmmm. . . I overlooked the obvious question: How

   much room DO you have between coil and baffle?



 At 08:45 PM 10/8/2012, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Thank you all for your insights.  I have scratched my head about this a bunch.  I don't really have two inches from the baffle to coils.  It is a little late to try to put them in a different spot.  Too much re-engineering.  Considering what Bob is saying about the discussion with Klaus, maybe I should terminate the coax an inch or two away and crimp or solder on a short piece of 18 gauge tefzel and us that to make the bend.  Add a couple of supports and I should be okay.  Does that seem reasonable? 	


  I wouldn't do that. All coax or all shielded. At the time

  I published this Shop Note



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG58/RG58.html



  several folks had already replaced RG-58 (suffering

  from temperature effects under the cowl) with Tefzel

  shielded wire and were satisfied with the results.



  I can't speak to the value of sparks jumping 1.5"

  gaps between coil towers but if that's a performance

  benchmark, be aware that shielded wire substitution

  may pollute that particular test result.



 

 

   Bob . . .     [quote][b]

Michael Wynn

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: San Ramon, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:52 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

Bob,

  

 I amazed as always.  Thank you for this article.  I think that's  what I'm going to do with my installation.

  

 Regards,

  

 Michael Wynn

 RV 8 Finishing

 San Ramon, CA

  

  In a message dated 10/8/2012 9:34:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  [img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]At    08:45 PM 10/8/2012, you wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Thank you all for your insights.  I have      scratched my head about this a bunch.  I don't really have two inches      from the baffle to coils.  It is a little late to try to put them in a      different spot.  Too much re-engineering.  Considering what Bob is      saying about the discussion with Klaus, maybe I should terminate the coax an      inch or two away and crimp or solder on a short piece of 18 gauge tefzel and      us that to make the bend.  Add a couple of supports and I should be      okay.  Does that seem reasonable? 	


 I wouldn't    do that. All coax or all shielded. At the time

 I published this Shop    Note



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG58/RG58.html



 several    folks had already replaced RG-58 (suffering

 from temperature effects    under the cowl) with Tefzel

 shielded wire and were satisfied with the    results.



 I can't speak to the value of sparks jumping    1.5"

 gaps between coil towers but if that's a    performance

 benchmark, be aware that shielded wire    substitution

 may pollute that particular test    result.

   

  Bob . . .  	  Quote: 	
		  



ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

_________________
Michael Wynn
RV 8
San Ramon, CA

Michael Wynn

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: San Ramon, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:55 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

For the baffle to coil distance, I will have to go measure but I think  about two inches, perhaps an inch and a half.  I am not concerned about it  shorting out, but couldn't see how I could get the coax to coil up in the space  present.

  

 Thanks,

  

 Michael Wynn

  

  In a message dated 10/8/2012 9:34:41 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  [img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]     Hmmm. . . I overlooked the obvious question: How

  much room DO you    have between coil and baffle?



At 08:45 PM 10/8/2012, you wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Thank you all for your insights.  I have      scratched my head about this a bunch.  I don't really have two inches      from the baffle to coils.  It is a little late to try to put them in a      different spot.  Too much re-engineering.  Considering what Bob is      saying about the discussion with Klaus, maybe I should terminate the coax an      inch or two away and crimp or solder on a short piece of 18 gauge tefzel and      us that to make the bend.  Add a couple of supports and I should be      okay.  Does that seem reasonable? 	


 I wouldn't    do that. All coax or all shielded. At the time

 I published this Shop    Note



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG58/RG58.html



 several    folks had already replaced RG-58 (suffering

 from temperature effects    under the cowl) with Tefzel

 shielded wire and were satisfied with the    results.



 I can't speak to the value of sparks jumping    1.5"

 gaps between coil towers but if that's a    performance

 benchmark, be aware that shielded wire    substitution

 may pollute that particular test    result.

   

  Bob . . .  	  Quote: 	
		  



ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

_________________
Michael Wynn
RV 8
San Ramon, CA

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: Right Angle Fast-on

At 09:54 AM 10/9/2012, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   For the baffle to coil distance, I will have to go measure but I think about two inches, perhaps an inch and a half.  I am not concerned about it shorting out, but couldn't see how I could get the coax to coil up in the space present. 	


   . . . not the coax . . . but connections

   to the coax.



   Try this:



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20121009142330.01e26930(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



   Take your coax stripper and prepare a end as if you were

   going to install a crimp connector. Except you crimp a

   fast-on to the center conductor. Then fold the shields

   back over the outer jacket and solder a 20AWG pigtail

   to the shield.  Put a nice string tie on the pigtail for

   insulation insulation support and install another

   fast-on. See if you can't install this termination

   in the space you described.



   As you can see here, the COAX can come STRAIGHT up to

   the terminals without bending. Only the more

   compliant conductors need be shaped to the task.



 

   Bob . . .

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