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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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While everything a pilot knows about his airplane is useful in an abstract way, glide ratio is practically useless. For instance, when I recounted my engine out landing at Augusta, KS, Pat Ladd pointed out that the numbers didn't add up. I, as Pat pointed out, should have been able to glide quite a bit further than I did. Why didn't I? Because I was gliding into a 5 to 7 knot breeze from the west northwest and the runway, and hence the downwind leg of the pattern, lies directly north and south. And this is why knowing your aircraft's glide ratio is a useless piece of knowledge, because the wind usually blows.
So, if glide ratio is useless, what is useful?
Being able to recognize at a glance what you can reach at that moment, in the conditions at that moment, that's what's useful.
For the next several flights, do this. Climb to 3 or 4,000 feet AGL, cut power to idle, and set up a glide at 50 mph. Now look at the objects on the ground out in front of you. Some will appear to be moving toward you, while others, further out, will appear to moving toward the horizon, away from you. In between are objects that appear to be stationary. Those stationary objects are the farthest you can reach at that moment. Do this when flying into the wind, across the wind, and with the wind and you'll notice that the angle from you to those stationary objects changes. With the wind, the angle is flatter. Into the wind, the angle steepens. Across the wind the angle will be somewhere in between. The actual angle is unimportant. Being able to recognize that line of stationary objects IS what's important and the faster you can do it the more time you have to pick a landing spot short of that line should the need arise.
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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David d.
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:57 am Post subject: Re: The spot that doesn't move |
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Excellent observation Rick.
The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane. If an object doesnt move you had better turn left or right. Works on planes, ships, cars, etc.
You should mention that raising the nose will not work. (power off)
DD
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Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head |
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:09 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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David,
I believe you're mistaken about raising the nose not working. If I'm
descending power off at 80 kts. from an altitude of 3K feet, there is a
point ahead of me which "does not move" where I will touch down, all
things remaining consistent. However, if I raise the nose and lower my
speed to 45K, the point which "does not move" will be further away. The
weight of the plane and all that's in it at the altitude it exists is
potential energy, built up by the engine moving the mass to that
altitude. When you are descending, that potential energy is now kinetic
energy and is spent in speed and distance, as well as overcoming
friction and wind resistance, etc. If you are using the energy to
maintain an 80K speed and overcome the friction and wind resistance at
that speed, you can raise the nose to trade off some of the speed and
resistance for a greater distance, which will change where things don't
move. The energy saved from the reduction of speed isn't lost, it's
transferred to distance.
You do it all the time, when you're landing especially. The aircraft
doesn't know where the energy is coming from, the prop or gravity, so
it's up to the pilot to adjust the power (engine) and the pitch
(gravity) in order to touch down where he wants to. Too much power or
too shallow a descent and you may overshoot the runway because the point
"that does not move" is extended further in front. If you only have the
energy of gravity, such as in a dead stick landing, you can still adjust
the speed/distance relationship with pitch.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 10/4/2012 6:58 AM, David d. wrote:
| Quote: |
Excellent observation Rick.
The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane. If an object doesnt move you had better turn left or right. Works on planes, ships, cars, etc.
You should mention that raising the nose will not work. (power off)
DD
--------
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384611#384611
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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Dave, Well, to some extent it depends upon the airplane. If I were flying my Kolb MkIIIC at 80 kts power off I'd pretty much be looking straight down. :-}First let's talk about real gliding speeds. For the mk IIIC the range is about 45 mph to 60, with a best of about 50. If I slow down from 50 to 45 there is a momentary ballooning that will make the STDM (spot that doesn't move) appear to move forward and then it will increase descent rate and the STDM not only comes back to where it was but moves toward me as the aircraft's sink rate goes up.
If I do the reverse, speeding up from 45 to 50 the opposite reaction occurs, at first the STDM moves toward me as the nose comes down, caused by the slight dive to pick up speed, then extends outward as the plane "planes" out, for lack of a better term.
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
Even though the Kolb MkIII is a draggy airplane, exactly the same thing will happen in a Cessna 172, just at slightly greater speed. For the 172 it's 65 kts for best glide and decreasing to 60 will get the ballooning/greater sink response (Thanks Spence, for showing me that early in training). At Renton, WA, a tower controlled field where I did my training the standard pattern speed requested by the controllers was 80 kts and on busy days the slow guys got put in holding patterns while the faster airplanes were pushed through. You didn't dare slow to 65 until you had the second notch of flaps on final. Then the difference in sink rate between 65 and 60 REALLY became obvious.
Incidentally, this is all covered quite well in "Stick and Rudder". Written almost 70 years ago, but still true today.
Rick
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:08 AM, David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)>
David,
I believe you're mistaken about raising the nose not working. If I'm descending power off at 80 kts. from an altitude of 3K feet, there is a point ahead of me which "does not move" where I will touch down, all things remaining consistent. However, if I raise the nose and lower my speed to 45K, the point which "does not move" will be further away. The weight of the plane and all that's in it at the altitude it exists is potential energy, built up by the engine moving the mass to that altitude. When you are descending, that potential energy is now kinetic energy and is spent in speed and distance, as well as overcoming friction and wind resistance, etc. If you are using the energy to maintain an 80K speed and overcome the friction and wind resistance at that speed, you can raise the nose to trade off some of the speed and resistance for a greater distance, which will change where things don't move. The energy saved from the reduction of speed isn't lost, it's transferred to distance.
You do it all the time, when you're landing especially. The aircraft doesn't know where the energy is coming from, the prop or gravity, so it's up to the pilot to adjust the power (engine) and the pitch (gravity) in order to touch down where he wants to. Too much power or too shallow a descent and you may overshoot the runway because the point "that does not move" is extended further in front. If you only have the energy of gravity, such as in a dead stick landing, you can still adjust the speed/distance relationship with pitch.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 10/4/2012 6:58 AM, David d. wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David d." <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>
Excellent observation Rick.
The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane. If an object doesnt move you had better turn left or right. Works on planes, ships, cars, etc.
You should mention that raising the nose will not work. (power off)
DD
--------
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384611#384611
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arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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Hi Rick,
We agree. When I was taking lessons in a Cessna, Andy would have me slow down to just above stall and then do tight turns, etc. while "slow flying." After I'd get into the very severe AOA necessary to slow fly I had to apply quite a bit of power in order to maintain my altitude. Andy looks a lot like SNL's Andy Samberg, but that's where the similarity ended. If I'd lose 50' of altitude doing a tight 360 while slow flying I'd hear about it! So when you're slow flying at a very high AOA, you're using close to the same amount of power (energy) to maintain altitude at a very slow speed. It almost feels like you're plowing snow. So let's skip slow flying or much of any range below best glide, because if someone chose to slow fly in a power out situation they'd be harboring a death wish.
I would figure that the best glide speed would be where there was enough speed to reduce the AOA, but not so much speed that the energy is being wasted on the increased drag inherent with the higher speed. So it's from that speed upward that one would adjust pitch and speed to arrive at the site they chose. In your reply you wrote:
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
So if the STDM moves inward when the nose comes down (and the speed is increased), then if you were doing 70 and raised the nose, the speed would drop and the STDM would move outward as the nose rose. You can't have one without the other; physics is 100% consistent, unless you're dealing with bumble bees.
When my Cuyuna shut off I was over my house in Lansdale and when I chose the Pennfield Middle School sports fields to land I dropped my nose till the STDM was the track and the resulting speed showing on my Halls was 80 MPH. Pretty near VNX, but the US was staying together so I stayed with it because in my total inexperience I figured it was my best shot at not getting hurt or something.
Dave Kulp
On 10/4/2012 11:43 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Dave, Well, to some extent it depends upon the airplane. If I were flying my Kolb MkIIIC at 80 kts power off I'd pretty much be looking straight down. :-} First let's talk about real gliding speeds. For the mk IIIC the range is about 45 mph to 60, with a best of about 50. If I slow down from 50 to 45 there is a momentary ballooning that will make the STDM (spot that doesn't move) appear to move forward and then it will increase descent rate and the STDM not only comes back to where it was but moves toward me as the aircraft's sink rate goes up.
If I do the reverse, speeding up from 45 to 50 the opposite reaction occurs, at first the STDM moves toward me as the nose comes down, caused by the slight dive to pick up speed, then extends outward as the plane "planes" out, for lack of a better term.
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
Even though the Kolb MkIII is a draggy airplane, exactly the same thing will happen in a Cessna 172, just at slightly greater speed. For the 172 it's 65 kts for best glide and decreasing to 60 will get the ballooning/greater sink response (Thanks Spence, for showing me that early in training). At Renton, WA, a tower controlled field where I did my training the standard pattern speed requested by the controllers was 80 kts and on busy days the slow guys got put in holding patterns while the faster airplanes were pushed through. You didn't dare slow to 65 until you had the second notch of flaps on final. Then the difference in sink rate between 65 and 60 REALLY became obvious.
Incidentally, this is all covered quite well in "Stick and Rudder". Written almost 70 years ago, but still true today.
Rick
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:08 AM, David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)>
David,
I believe you're mistaken about raising the nose not working. If I'm descending power off at 80 kts. from an altitude of 3K feet, there is a point ahead of me which "does not move" where I will touch down, all things remaining consistent. However, if I raise the nose and lower my speed to 45K, the point which "does not move" will be further away. The weight of the plane and all that's in it at the altitude it exists is potential energy, built up by the engine moving the mass to that altitude. When you are descending, that potential energy is now kinetic energy and is spent in speed and distance, as well as overcoming friction and wind resistance, etc. If you are using the energy to maintain an 80K speed and overcome the friction and wind resistance at that speed, you can raise the nose to trade off some of the speed and resistance for a greater distance, which will change where things don't move. The energy saved from the reduction of speed isn't lost, it's transferred to distance.
You do it all the time, when you're landing especially. The aircraft doesn't know where the energy is coming from, the prop or gravity, so it's up to the pilot to adjust the power (engine) and the pitch (gravity) in order to touch down where he wants to. Too much power or too shallow a descent and you may overshoot the runway because the point "that does not move" is extended further in front. If you only have the energy of gravity, such as in a dead stick landing, you can still adjust the speed/distance relationship with pitch.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 10/4/2012 6:58 AM, David d. wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David d." <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com> (david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com)
Excellent observation Rick.
The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane. If an object doesnt move you had better turn left or right. Works on planes, ships, cars, etc.
You should mention that raising the nose will not work. (power off)
DD
--------
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384611#384611
|
====================================
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[b]
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dpeters160(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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What was the cause of your engine quitting Dave? On Oct 4, 2012 2:12 PM, "David Kulp" <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:[quote] Hi Rick,
We agree. When I was taking lessons in a Cessna, Andy would have me slow down to just above stall and then do tight turns, etc. while "slow flying." After I'd get into the very severe AOA necessary to slow fly I had to apply quite a bit of power in order to maintain my altitude. Andy looks a lot like SNL's Andy Samberg, but that's where the similarity ended. If I'd lose 50' of altitude doing a tight 360 while slow flying I'd hear about it! So when you're slow flying at a very high AOA, you're using close to the same amount of power (energy) to maintain altitude at a very slow speed. It almost feels like you're plowing snow. So let's skip slow flying or much of any range below best glide, because if someone chose to slow fly in a power out situation they'd be harboring a death wish.
I would figure that the best glide speed would be where there was enough speed to reduce the AOA, but not so much speed that the energy is being wasted on the increased drag inherent with the higher speed. So it's from that speed upward that one would adjust pitch and speed to arrive at the site they chose. In your reply you wrote:
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
So if the STDM moves inward when the nose comes down (and the speed is increased), then if you were doing 70 and raised the nose, the speed would drop and the STDM would move outward as the nose rose. You can't have one without the other; physics is 100% consistent, unless you're dealing with bumble bees.
When my Cuyuna shut off I was over my house in Lansdale and when I chose the Pennfield Middle School sports fields to land I dropped my nose till the STDM was the track and the resulting speed showing on my Halls was 80 MPH. Pretty near VNX, but the US was staying together so I stayed with it because in my total inexperience I figured it was my best shot at not getting hurt or something.
Dave Kulp
On 10/4/2012 11:43 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Dave, Well, to some extent it depends upon the airplane. If I were flying my Kolb MkIIIC at 80 kts power off I'd pretty much be looking straight down. :-} First let's talk about real gliding speeds. For the mk IIIC the range is about 45 mph to 60, with a best of about 50. If I slow down from 50 to 45 there is a momentary ballooning that will make the STDM (spot that doesn't move) appear to move forward and then it will increase descent rate and the STDM not only comes back to where it was but moves toward me as the aircraft's sink rate goes up.
If I do the reverse, speeding up from 45 to 50 the opposite reaction occurs, at first the STDM moves toward me as the nose comes down, caused by the slight dive to pick up speed, then extends outward as the plane "planes" out, for lack of a better term.
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
Even though the Kolb MkIII is a draggy airplane, exactly the same thing will happen in a Cessna 172, just at slightly greater speed. For the 172 it's 65 kts for best glide and decreasing to 60 will get the ballooning/greater sink response (Thanks Spence, for showing me that early in training). At Renton, WA, a tower controlled field where I did my training the standard pattern speed requested by the controllers was 80 kts and on busy days the slow guys got put in holding patterns while the faster airplanes were pushed through. You didn't dare slow to 65 until you had the second notch of flaps on final. Then the difference in sink rate between 65 and 60 REALLY became obvious.
Incidentally, this is all covered quite well in "Stick and Rudder". Written almost 70 years ago, but still true today.
Rick
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:08 AM, David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)>
David,
I believe you're mistaken about raising the nose not working. If I'm descending power off at 80 kts. from an altitude of 3K feet, there is a point ahead of me which "does not move" where I will touch down, all things remaining consistent. However, if I raise the nose and lower my speed to 45K, the point which "does not move" will be further away. The weight of the plane and all that's in it at the altitude it exists is potential energy, built up by the engine moving the mass to that altitude. When you are descending, that potential energy is now kinetic energy and is spent in speed and distance, as well as overcoming friction and wind resistance, etc. If you are using the energy to maintain an 80K speed and overcome the friction and wind resistance at that speed, you can raise the nose to trade off some of the speed and resistance for a greater distance, which will change where things don't move. The energy saved from the reduction of speed isn't lost, it's transferred to distance.
You do it all the time, when you're landing especially. The aircraft doesn't know where the energy is coming from, the prop or gravity, so it's up to the pilot to adjust the power (engine) and the pitch (gravity) in order to touch down where he wants to. Too much power or too shallow a descent and you may overshoot the runway because the point "that does not move" is extended further in front. If you only have the energy of gravity, such as in a dead stick landing, you can still adjust the speed/distance relationship with pitch.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 10/4/2012 6:58 AM, David d. wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David d." <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com> (david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com)
Excellent observation Rick.
The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane. If an object doesnt move you had better turn left or right. Works on planes, ships, cars, etc.
You should mention that raising the nose will not work. (power off)
DD
--------
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384611#384611
|
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arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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Hi David, i don't know for sure, but since I shipped it down to 2SI To check it out o(when they still dealt with aircraft) and they returned it saying it ran perfectly, I'm guessing the fuel pump I saved about 3 bucks rebuilding rather than buying a new one malfunctioned.
Dave Kulp
Do not archive, please!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 4, 2012, at 5:15 PM, David Peters <dpeters160(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] What was the cause of your engine quitting Dave?
On Oct 4, 2012 2:12 PM, "David Kulp" <undoctor(at)ptd.net> wrote:
Hi Rick,
We agree. When I was taking lessons in a Cessna, Andy would have me slow down to just above stall and then do tight turns, etc. while "slow flying." After I'd get into the very severe AOA necessary to slow fly I had to apply quite a bit of power in order to maintain my altitude. Andy looks a lot like SNL's Andy Samberg, but that's where the similarity ended. If I'd lose 50' of altitude doing a tight 360 while slow flying I'd hear about it! So when you're slow flying at a very high AOA, you're using close to the same amount of power (energy) to maintain altitude at a very slow speed. It almost feels like you're plowing snow. So let's skip slow flying or much of any range below best glide, because if someone chose to slow fly in a power out situation they'd be harboring a death wish.
I would figure that the best glide speed would be where there was enough speed to reduce the AOA, but not so much speed that the energy is being wasted on the increased drag inherent with the higher speed. So it's from that speed upward that one would adjust pitch and speed to arrive at the site they chose. In your reply you wrote:
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
So if the STDM moves inward when the nose comes down (and the speed is increased), then if you were doing 70 and raised the nose, the speed would drop and the STDM would move outward as the nose rose. You can't have one without the other; physics is 100% consistent, unless you're dealing with bumble bees.
When my Cuyuna shut off I was over my house in Lansdale and when I chose the Pennfield Middle School sports fields to land I dropped my nose till the STDM was the track and the resulting speed showing on my Halls was 80 MPH. Pretty near VNX, but the US was staying together so I stayed with it because in my total inexperience I figured it was my best shot at not getting hurt or something.
Dave Kulp
On 10/4/2012 11:43 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Dave, Well, to some extent it depends upon the airplane. If I were flying my Kolb MkIIIC at 80 kts power off I'd pretty much be looking straight down. :-}
> First let's talk about real gliding speeds. For the mk IIIC the range is about 45 mph to 60, with a best of about 50. If I slow down from 50 to 45 there is a momentary ballooning that will make the STDM (spot that doesn't move) appear to move forward and then it will increase descent rate and the STDM not only comes back to where it was but moves toward me as the aircraft's sink rate goes up.
> If I do the reverse, speeding up from 45 to 50 the opposite reaction occurs, at first the STDM moves toward me as the nose comes down, caused by the slight dive to pick up speed, then extends outward as the plane "planes" out, for lack of a better term.
> Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
> Even though the Kolb MkIII is a draggy airplane, exactly the same thing will happen in a Cessna 172, just at slightly greater speed. For the 172 it's 65 kts for best glide and decreasing to 60 will get the ballooning/greater sink response (Thanks Spence, for showing me that early in training). At Renton, WA, a tower controlled field where I did my training the standard pattern speed requested by the controllers was 80 kts and on busy days the slow guys got put in holding patterns while the faster airplanes were pushed through. You didn't dare slow to 65 until you had the second notch of flaps on final. Then the difference in sink rate between 65 and 60 REALLY became obvious
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dpeters160(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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Thank you Dave, I personally would rather read about what is causing kolbers to have to make engine out landings, than how to judge a glide after one. On Oct 4, 2012 2:50 PM, "David Kulp" <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:[quote] Hi David, i don't know for sure, but since I shipped it down to 2SI To check it out o(when they still dealt with aircraft) and they returned it saying it ran perfectly, I'm guessing the fuel pump I saved about 3 bucks rebuilding rather than buying a new one malfunctioned.
Dave Kulp
Do not archive, please!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 4, 2012, at 5:15 PM, David Peters <dpeters160(at)gmail.com (dpeters160(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
What was the cause of your engine quitting Dave? On Oct 4, 2012 2:12 PM, "David Kulp" <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote: | Quote: | Hi Rick,
We agree. When I was taking lessons in a Cessna, Andy would have me slow down to just above stall and then do tight turns, etc. while "slow flying." After I'd get into the very severe AOA necessary to slow fly I had to apply quite a bit of power in order to maintain my altitude. Andy looks a lot like SNL's Andy Samberg, but that's where the similarity ended. If I'd lose 50' of altitude doing a tight 360 while slow flying I'd hear about it! So when you're slow flying at a very high AOA, you're using close to the same amount of power (energy) to maintain altitude at a very slow speed. It almost feels like you're plowing snow. So let's skip slow flying or much of any range below best glide, because if someone chose to slow fly in a power out situation they'd be harboring a death wish.
I would figure that the best glide speed would be where there was enough speed to reduce the AOA, but not so much speed that the energy is being wasted on the increased drag inherent with the higher speed. So it's from that speed upward that one would adjust pitch and speed to arrive at the site they chose. In your reply you wrote:
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
So if the STDM moves inward when the nose comes down (and the speed is increased), then if you were doing 70 and raised the nose, the speed would drop and the STDM would move outward as the nose rose. You can't have one without the other; physics is 100% consistent, unless you're dealing with bumble bees.
When my Cuyuna shut off I was over my house in Lansdale and when I chose the Pennfield Middle School sports fields to land I dropped my nose till the STDM was the track and the resulting speed showing on my Halls was 80 MPH. Pretty near VNX, but the US was staying together so I stayed with it because in my total inexperience I figured it was my best shot at not getting hurt or something.
Dave Kulp
On 10/4/2012 11:43 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Dave, Well, to some extent it depends upon the airplane. If I were flying my Kolb MkIIIC at 80 kts power off I'd pretty much be looking straight down. :-} First let's talk about real gliding speeds. For the mk IIIC the range is about 45 mph to 60, with a best of about 50. If I slow down from 50 to 45 there is a momentary ballooning that will make the STDM (spot that doesn't move) appear to move forward and then it will increase descent rate and the STDM not only comes back to where it was but moves toward me as the aircraft's sink rate goes up.
If I do the reverse, speeding up from 45 to 50 the opposite reaction occurs, at first the STDM moves toward me as the nose comes down, caused by the slight dive to pick up speed, then extends outward as the plane "planes" out, for lack of a better term.
Let's speed up some more to 60. Now there is neither ballooning nor a temporary sink followed by planing, the STDM just moves inward as the nose comes down.
Even though the Kolb MkIII is a draggy airplane, exactly the same thing will happen in a Cessna 172, just at slightly greater speed. For the 172 it's 65 kts for best glide and decreasing to 60 will get the ballooning/greater sink response (Thanks Spence, for showing me that early in training). At Renton, WA, a tower controlled field where I did my training the standard pattern speed requested by the controllers was 80 kts and on busy days the slow guys got put in holding patterns while the faster airplanes were pushed through. You didn't dare slow to 65 until you had the second notch of flaps on final. Then the difference in sink rate between 65 and 60 REALLY became obvious.
Incidentally, this is all covered quite well in "Stick and Rudder". Written almost 70 years ago, but still true today.
Rick
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:08 AM, David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: David Kulp <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)>
David,
I believe you're mistaken about raising the nose not working. If I'm descending power off at 80 kts. from an altitude of 3K feet, there is a point ahead of me which "does not move" where I will touch down, all things remaining consistent. However, if I raise the nose and lower my speed to 45K, the point which "does not move" will be further away. The weight of the plane and all that's in it at the altitude it exists is potential energy, built up by the engine moving the mass to that altitude. When you are descending, that potential energy is now kinetic energy and is spent in speed and distance, as well as overcoming friction and wind resistance, etc. If you are using the energy to maintain an 80K speed and overcome the friction and wind resistance at that speed, you can raise the nose to trade off some of the speed and resistance for a greater distance, which will change where things don't move. The energy saved from the reduction of speed isn't lost, it's transferred to distance.
You do it all the time, when you're landing especially. The aircraft doesn't know where the energy is coming from, the prop or gravity, so it's up to the pilot to adjust the power (engine) and the pitch (gravity) in order to touch down where he wants to. Too much power or too shallow a descent and you may overshoot the runway because the point "that does not move" is extended further in front. If you only have the energy of gravity, such as in a dead stick landing, you can still adjust the speed/distance relationship with pitch.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
FireFly 11DMK
On 10/4/2012 6:58 AM, David d. wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David d." <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com> (david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com)
Excellent observation Rick.
The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane. If an object doesnt move you had better turn left or right. Works on planes, ships, cars, etc.
You should mention that raising the nose will not work. (power off)
DD
--------
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384611#384611
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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At 11:08 AM 10/4/12 -0400, you wrote:
| Quote: |
David,
I believe you're mistaken about raising the nose not working. If I'm
descending power off at 80 kts. from an altitude of 3K feet, there is a
point ahead of me which "does not move" where I will touch down, all
things remaining consistent. However, if I raise the nose and lower my
speed to 45K, the point which "does not move" will be further away.
|
The above is true until you reach the "best glide" speed for your aircraft.
If one glides at a slower speed that best glide, the do not move point will
move closer and closer. Also as the speed continues to be reduced, the
dwell flight time will increase until you reach stall.
What is important here is that you pick a spot that you can reach and still
have enough altitude and speed to make a safe and as normal approach as
possible. It reduces pilot anxiety.
As a side note, earlier this week a fellow was delivering a Capella xls to
Lima, Ohio. He ended up in a bean field about 1,000 feet short of my home
airport. I talked to him as he and his grandson were winching it from the
field to the road. He said he was at 3,500 feet and about five miles from
Randolph County Airport, when the front two cylinders of his 912ul seized.
He made no flap touch down in a bean field south of a road. The nose wheel
impacted with and tore off on the edge of the road. This bounced him across
the road into the bean field on the north side of the road. Other than a
torn off nose wheel the plane looked fine.
If he was 3,500 feet asl, he would have had to have a glide ratio of 11 to 1
to make the airport. If he was 3,500 agl, he would have had to have a glide
ratio of 7.5 to 1 to reach the airport. For the point at which he touched
down the ratios come out to be 10.6 to 1 and 7.25 to 1.
If he had paid attention to the dot, he could have slowed it up a little and
put it into the bean field parallel close to the road and may be saved the
nose wheel.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane>>
Ask any sailor.
If you are moving and an object remain on a fixed bearing and nothing
changes YOU WILL HIT IT.
Same with the non moving spot on your windshield. If you do nothing (and
don`t flare) that is where you will meet the ground.
Pat
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dpeters160(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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Common in an airplane too; sorry, couldn't't resist.
On Saturday, October 6, 2012, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane>>
Ask any sailor.
If you are moving and an object remain on a fixed bearing and nothing changes YOU WILL HIT IT.
> Same with the non moving spot on your windshield. If you do nothing (and don`t flare) that is where you will meet the ground.
|
| Quote: |
Pat=================
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 12:00 PM, David Peters <dpeters160(at)gmail.com (dpeters160(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Common in an airplane too; sorry, couldn't't resist.
On Saturday, October 6, 2012, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
>
| Quote: | The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane>>
Ask any sailor.
If you are moving and an object remain on a fixed bearing and nothing changes YOU WILL HIT IT.
> Same with the non moving spot on your windshield. If you do nothing (and don`t flare) that is where you will meet the ground.
|
| Quote: | Pat=================
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dpeters160(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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A mark that looks like Kennedy Airport would be great! On Oct 6, 2012 10:27 AM, "Rick Neilsen" <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 12:00 PM, David Peters <dpeters160(at)gmail.com (dpeters160(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Common in an airplane too; sorry, couldn't't resist.
On Saturday, October 6, 2012, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
>
| Quote: | The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane>>
Ask any sailor.
If you are moving and an object remain on a fixed bearing and nothing changes YOU WILL HIT IT.
> Same with the non moving spot on your windshield. If you do nothing (and don`t flare) that is where you will meet the ground.
|
| Quote: | Pat=================
mp; Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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I did that on the side of my boat once, but for some reason they weren't there when I went fishing again. :-/
do not archive and wish that I could be anonymous
Larry
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 12:00 PM, David Peters <dpeters160(at)gmail.com (dpeters160(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Common in an airplane too; sorry, couldn't't resist.
On Saturday, October 6, 2012, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
>
| Quote: | The object not moving is very common on a horizontal plane>>
Ask any sailor.
If you are moving and an object remain on a fixed bearing and nothing changes YOU WILL HIT IT.
> Same with the non moving spot on your windshield. If you do nothing (and don`t flare) that is where you will meet the ground.
|
| Quote: | Pat=================
mp; Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
|
--> http://www.======
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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OK very funny.
Our Kolbs have a very wide field of view. When flying GA planes I could picture a few inches or so above the dash and get close to where we were going to land but we really don't have nor do we want that obstruction. But a mark might be useful.
Rick Neilsen
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I did that on the side of my boat once, but for some reason they weren't there when I went fishing again. :-/
do not archive and wish that I could be anonymous
Larry
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 12:00 PM, David Peters <dpeters160(at)gmail.com (dpeters160(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:09 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 13:24:38 -0400
From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
| Quote: |
That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the
weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a
|
mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Rick,
When I started flying sailplanes, I had difficulty finding the spot. I did
not know where to look. Part of the problem was that I was used to flying
in tractor aircraft with high instrument panels that did not let you look
down over the nose. With the low instrument panels and forward reaching
canopy on the sailplane, one had very good forward and downward view over
the nose. It took a while to find the spot relative to the top of the low
instrument panel or forward edge of the canopy. I found I was spending too
much time finding the spot. I solved the problem by doing what you suggest.
I placed a horizontal strip of black electricians tape forward on the
inside of the canopy just below where I thought the spot would appear. I
flew this way for several months, and then I found I didn't need it any
more.
It just takes some self training and practice. When I first started flying
the FireFly to out lying airports, I would cruise at 2,500 to 3,000 feet
agl. I could not find the airports. There was too much too look at. But
the gps said, the airport was there. I would start to circle at altitude
until I could find it. I discovered I was too close when I started to look
for the airports. I was looking beyond them. Later on, I had little trouble
seeing them from miles out.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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At 01:24 PM 10/6/2012, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work? |
No, because it will vary (quite significantly) depending on the wind.
-Dana
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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how do you adjust the tape for differing winds. 5, 10 mph..12 or 14????. now is that straight down the runway,,, cross wind from the left or the right.. did anyone say quartering tail wind, by the time we get done the piece of tape will be a sheet of paper with peep holes punched through out it each marked with a different wind configuration, glide speed, wing loading. we might as well be flying some tractor we cant see out of. OR you could just carry a flat rock in your shirt pocket,,,,,, open the door and toss it out and follow it down. just make sure it is a brightly colored rock so you can see it all the way to the ground. with too much tape on the window you may just for get to fly the plane,,, as you try and remember what each mark on the tape is for. the reality of the situation is,,,, by the time you figure out where to put the tape, you should not need it any more.
LOL
boyd young
please!!! do not archive
>>>>>>
That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
[quote][b]
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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You guys aren't flying enough. Talk about a pain in the...
I flew my VW powered MKIIIC out of a 1400 ft (about 900 usable) one way strip for fifteen years. I have landed in from 20 MPH head wind to 20 MPH tail wind. When flying a bunch I could pick out the touch down point within a few seconds after turning final. There were a few times when tired or not focused I misjudged and things got tense. This with a strip that didn't allow me a go around if I waited too long.
With a line horizontal line drawn across the wind screen indicating the normal touch down point I would have been able to much more quickly adjust to the conditions. If the threshold of my strip is moving above the reference line then add power. If it is moving under cut power more, add flaps and or go around before it is too late.
I'm currently flying out a 3200' GA strip so my short field landing skills aren't as good as they were. If I lost power and had to land in a small clearing in the woods a horizontal reference line on my wind screen might be a life saver.
My point was and still is in a emergency hope you have a plan and may be a reference line to get to a safe landing point. If I'm flying under 3000 AGL I'm not likely going to grab a calculator and GPS to find a landing site. Do as you wish.
As all ways worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 6:28 PM, b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] how do you adjust the tape for differing winds. 5, 10 mph..12 or 14????. now is that straight down the runway,,, cross wind from the left or the right.. did anyone say quartering tail wind, by the time we get done the piece of tape will be a sheet of paper with peep holes punched through out it each marked with a different wind configuration, glide speed, wing loading. we might as well be flying some tractor we cant see out of. OR you could just carry a flat rock in your shirt pocket,,,,,, open the door and toss it out and follow it down. just make sure it is a brightly colored rock so you can see it all the way to the ground. with too much tape on the window you may just for get to fly the plane,,, as you try and remember what each mark on the tape is for. the reality of the situation is,,,, by the time you figure out where to put the tape, you should not need it any more.
LOL
boyd young
please!!! do not archive
>>>>>>
That spot that doesn't move should be in the same place assuming the weight, speed, is close and the flap position is the same. So why not put a mark on the windscreen showing where you will be landing???
Would that work?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:40 am Post subject: The spot that doesn't move |
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From: "b young" <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:28:25 -0600
| Quote: |
how do you adjust the tape for differing winds. 5, 10 mph..12 or 14????.
|
now is that straight down the runway,,, cross wind from the left or the
right.. did anyone say quartering tail wind, by the time we get done
the piece of tape will be a sheet of paper with peep holes punched through
out it each marked with a different wind configuration, glide speed, wing
loading. we might as well be flying some tractor we cant see out of. OR
you could just carry a flat rock in your shirt pocket,,,,,, open the door
and toss it out and follow it down. just make sure it is a brightly colored
rock so you can see it all the way to the ground. with too much tape on
the window you may just for get to fly the plane,,, as you try and remember
what each mark on the tape is for. the reality of the situation is,,,,
by the time you figure out where to put the tape, you should not need it any
more. LOL
What is being forgotten here is that the "spot that doesn't move" has
already taken into account the wind conditions, wing loading and glide
speed. If the spot is not over the runway, fly to the point where it is.
If not, I believe it was Pat Ladd, that said if you fly to it with a
constant glide slope, you will impact the earth at that point.
My suggestion of using the tape has nothing to do but act as a guide as
to were to look for the spot. Once a person finds the spot and fixes on
it, the pilot will no longer see the tape and can focus on the things that
a pilot should focus on while landing under varying wind speed and direction.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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