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Working cabin heater

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ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject: Working cabin heater

Hello all,



The cold season is starting this week in Eastern Europe!



I am looking at options to have a really working cabin heater for my rotax 914 based Europa. Mean that it is still warm enough in the cabin at -20C (flying in winter when everything is white is something marvelous). 



My understanding is that only a heater with air warmed from the exhaust will achieve that. 



Does someone has pictures/instruction/specific parts of a working system for a 914 Europa?



Thanks, Jacques

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: Working cabin heater

ploucandco a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello all,



 The cold season is starting this week in Eastern Europe!



 I am looking at options to have a really working cabin heater for my rotax 914 based Europa. Mean that it is still warm enough in the cabin at -20C (flying in winter when everything is white is something marvelous). 



 My understanding is that only a heater with air warmed from the exhaust will achieve that. 



 Does someone has pictures/instruction/specific parts of a working system for a 914 Europa?

   


	


Jacques,



Here what we did :

http://contrails.free.fr/cellule_chauffage_en.php



Very efficient, no fumes, but you need a correctly designed *radiator duct.*

Hope this helps,



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Working cabin heater

Merci Gilles.



I saw this one but on the Europa, it seems that the amount of heat going in the cockpit with an engine at the lower green limits (winter time!) is not enough to warm up the cabin. 



If someone can prove me the opposite, I am happy to hear.



Jacques.

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: Working cabin heater

Jacques



On the Club Web site you will find a copy of the Mod 10986 which describes

the heater fitted to G-JULZ.  A number of other aircraft have very similar

installations.  It is also very similar to the MCR-4S heater described by

Gilles. 



Here is a direct link to the Mod

http://www.theeuropaclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/10986all.pdf 

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Working cabin heater

Thanks Ian. I saw this one as well. The goal is to get +15C in the cabin when the outside air is -20C. 



Do you or someone else have positive experience that this system will  provide this +35C difference in temperature?



Sorry to be difficult but I read a few times that such heater will work well when the engine is running hot. Mine is running cool in winter. 



Jacques

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Working cabin heater

Jacques,



I also plan this sort of installation (http://www.customflightcreations.com/id18.html) this winter, thus cannot yet post my experiences so far.  



My (conventional Rotax 914) engine installation is also running cool at low OAT, therefore I installed a water thermostat (an additional oil thermostat might also be an option) - this should help a little.



Roland

XS Trigear 914

PH-ZTI

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:56 am Post subject: Working cabin heater

Hi Roland  

   

I have a similar set up in my 914 but without the water thermostat,  

Using one will reduce the water temperature in the Radiator but will  

Increase the engine water temperature only,  

   

You would be better of fitting a cowl flap to reduce cold airflow through  

The radiator so increasing air temperature behind the radiator then to the cabin,  

   

My heater certainly takes the chill out of the air making flying pleasant down to minus 5 C,     but it isn’t as warm as the average car heater,  

This I intend to rectify this winter’s maintenance layup with improved  

Ducting and insulating the heat trunking to the cockpit  

   

Ivor  

G-IVER  

914XS  



On 25 October 2012 14:01, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)> wrote:

[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>

 

 Jaques,

 

 I also plan this sort of installation (http://www.customflightcreations.com/id18.html) this winter, thus cannot yet post my experiences so far.

  

 My (conventional Rotax 914) engine installation is also running cool at low OAT, therefore I installed a water thermostat (an additional oil thermostat might also be an option) - this should help a little.

 

 Roland

 XS Trigear 914

 PH-ZTI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385979#385979

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Working cabin heater

Hello Ivor,



as for the temperature in the radiator with a thermostat you are right of course - never thought about it before.



Nevertheless I prefer the thermostat compared to the cowl flap since there's no additional controls to care about. At very low temperatures some duct tape should also do the same job as a cowl flap - although far less sophisticated and less controllable.



Because some say that no heating at all is needed in the Europa I'm confident, that Bud Yerly's design works okay for me. 



I get more and more a guess, why our Europas are classified as "Experimentals".



Roland

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: Working cabin heater

Hello Roland

 

I stated couple of years ago a water thermostat is a must and cars have proved it is something you can really trust.

Some of The Europa List-users claimed I am an idiot because adding that "complex" item it makes flying too risky (!).

 So far I have used it 340 hrs /6 years in my Europa and over 1 million kilometers /34 years in my cars w/o problems.

There is no known thermostat problems. 

In the case of jamming, it will jamm open.

  

As you wrote, a thermostat is automatic - not manual. That is clever.

In the other hand, some of us like "many manual levers and knobs to move in and out, upp or down and so".

 Maybe that is because those pilots would like to be in their dreams a captain of multi-engine-machine and have at least 8 throttle /mixture /prop levers and so to get influence with that girl sitting on the P2 seat.

  

I have water heated carbs and I am happy I have eliminated one knob then again.

 

My grandfather put something front of his cooler to get warmer inside.

I prefer automatic system.

 Also in my house.

Also in my life.

 

I am going to fly tomorrow - I promise it really would be not possible here in Finland (my base is about N62) just now without a sophisticated pre-warming /cockpit warming /defrost systems.

  

It is so terrible cold and freezing here just now - be happy you are not Finnish today.

 

Raimo

Finland

OH-XRT

 

Our AN-2 was almost flipping over today because She lost suddenly the airpressure in Her left gear (attachment).

 Happily tomorrow there will come here couple of mechanists from Hungary Nyiregyhaza to solve a problem and make some other "minor adjustments" we need to operate this Lady fluently. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

2012/10/25 Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>

  

 Hello Ivor,

 

 as for the temperature in the radiator with a thermostat you are right of course - never thought about it before.

 

 Nevertheless I prefer the thermostat compared to the cowl flap since there's no additional controls to care about. At very low temperatures some duct tape should also do the same job as a cowl flap - although far less sophisticated and less controllable.

  

 Because some say that no heating at all is needed in the Europa I'm confident, that Bud Yerly's design works okay for me.

 

 I get more and more a guess, why our Europas are classified as "Experimentals".

 

 Roland

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386008#386008

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: Working cabin heater

Raimo Toivio a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Roland

  

 I stated couple of years ago a water thermostat is a must and cars 

 have proved it is something you can really trust.

 Some of The Europa List-users claimed I am an idiot because adding 

 that "complex" item it makes flying too risky (!).

 So far I have used it 340 hrs /6 years in my Europa and over 1 million 

 kilometers /34 years in my cars w/o problems.

 There is no known thermostat problems.

 In the case of jamming, it will jamm open.

  

 As you wrote, a thermostat is automatic - not manual. That is clever.

 In the other hand, some of us like "many manual levers and knobs to 

 move in and out, upp or down and so".

 Maybe that is because those pilots would like to be in their dreams a 

 captain of multi-engine-machine and have at least 8 throttle /mixture 

 /prop levers and so to get influence with that girl sitting on the P2 

 seat.


	


Raimo,



Nothing idiot in a water thermostat. The point is, it only takes care of 

water temperatures, and not of  cooling *drag*.

With a thermostat, you need to flow lots of air through the radiator, 

and only act on the water.

Radiator drag doesn't matter much in a slow vehicle such as a car or an 

old fashion already draggy airplane. But in a sleek airplane, always 

having maximum radiator drag regardless of flight conditions may amount 

to some precious knots or vertical feet per minute or climb out performance.

Bottom line, it is up to the builder.



BTW for the sake of lightness and simplicity, the most important lever 

to get rid of in a less than 200 mph airplane is the gear lever 

Below those speed, nothing to be gained with a retracting gear as 

opposed to a correctly streamlined fixed gear.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Working cabin heater

Hi Raimo,



good to hear that your Antonov stunt turned out well. I guess that who can handle a Mono can manage almost any taildragger surprises. 



BTW, how about the heating system in the AN-2 - the Russians must know the best about that.



Maybe you are right regarding the knobs and levers but I like to keep it simple as well.



Good luck tomorrow with the hungarian mechanics, I hope You have a heated hangar at your disposal.



Greetings from Germany (5Â°C)



Roland

XS Trigear 914

PH-ZTI

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: Working cabin heater

On Oct 26, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Gilles Thesee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  BTW for the sake of lightness and simplicity, the most important lever to get rid of in a less than 200 mph airplane is the gear lever 

Below those speed, nothing to be gained with a retracting gear as opposed to a correctly streamlined fixed gear.

	




Gilles...in the spirit of ....let me guess...your bird is a fixed tri-gear, yes?

Fred

do not archive



 [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: Working cabin heater

Fred Klein a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Gilles...in the spirit of ....let me guess...your bird is a fixed 

 tri-gear, yes?


	


^^!



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:11 am Post subject: Working cabin heater

Fred and all,



it is always so: if you have not something - you say "it is unnecessary

/stupid /useless /dangerous /expensive /risky / etc to keep yourself

happy".

That is human behaviour.

What more you miss something that more you claim "I do not need it".



Those people who have not an automatic transmission in their car claim

manual is better because lots of reasons.

When they finally happen to get an automatic, they will never ever give it

away.



I am sure all those boys who are flying with their fixed gears which are

hanging around there and there are dreaming every night once to be a pilot

with a manhood and a fabulous retractable gear and those wonderful

neverending flights towards sunset like big and fast eagles (which are

usually flying legs retracted). See attached photo - it is for

you Fred (somewhere over Poland and yes - I know many reasons why it is

good to have those fixed gears in AN-2  )



They say: first was an egg, then came a human being.

I say: first was a plane, then came a Europa Monowheel (w a retractable uc)

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:34 am Post subject: Working cabin heater

On Oct 27, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am sure all those boys who are flying with their fixed gears which are hanging around there and there are dreaming every night once to be a pilot with a manhood and a fabulous retractable gear and those wonderful neverending flights towards sunset like big and fast eagles (which are usually flying legs retracted). See attached photo - it is for you Fred (somewhere over Poland and yes - I know many reasons why it is good to have those fixed gears in AN-2  )

	




Raimo...the romance of flight shows up in many forms...wonderful sunset photo from your AN-2...and you can open a window, throttle back, and listen to the wind in the wires.

On the issue of the semi-retract monowheel, Kim Prout's low pass in the video (was it the Kitplanes one?) said it all for me w/ his Classic just scooting along in a shallow bank...ahh, to reach COMPLETION!!!

Fred

do not archive

 [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: Working cabin heater

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->                        [img]cid:013f01cdb608$81649a60(at)goldfishbk2xxe[/img][img]cid:014001cdb608$81649a60(at)goldfishbk2xxe[/img] Photo E-mail           [url=https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=2161856909618aa7&page=play&resid=2161856909618AA7!282&type=5&authkey=!AGSy0jMk4aIkbhI]View        slideshow [/url]| [url=https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=2161856909618aa7&page=downloadphotos&resid=2161856909618AA7!282&type=5&authkey=!AGSy0jMk4aIkbhI]Download        images [/url]   Jacques,

 I have been building a similar cabin heater for about 6 years.   

 It is fine until about -10 C.  The duct has to be quite well sealed  and since most of the heat comes from the oil cooler, if a thermostat is  installed one cannot expect it to heat as much.  In my experience my oil  temps in winter run about 160F or 70C.  The air out of the back side of the  cooler is normally just under 100F or about 35C.  N12AY is pretty tight and  my air vents seal pretty well so little air rushes into the cockpit through the  inspection holes and center tunnel as I have it all well sealed.  Just the  sun shine keeps me in winter clothes fairly comfortable.  If I close off  the oil cooler with a plate over it, that cuts the air flow too much.

  

 Unfortunately, I am in Florida, so it rarely gets super cold here.   The the mono tends to be drafty through the tunnel and is asking too much from  my little heater (basically the same as the Europa Club mod).

  

  

                   [url=https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=2161856909618aa7&page=play&resid=2161856909618AA7!283&parid=2161856909618AA7!282&type=1&authkey=!AGSy0jMk4aIkbhI][img]cid:014101cdb608$81649a60(at)goldfishbk2xxe[/img][/url]

               

    

  

 My only suggestion for a constant high temp source is to pull the coolant  from the engine using a similar hookup to the carb heat mod, and use a small oil  cooler (or a simple 3/16 inch copper tube coil and fan in the cockpit to bring  up the temp for bitter temps.)  Where to put it becomes a real  problem.

  

 I have not been a fan of pulling heat from a muff from the muffler or  exhaust system as it is a Carbon Monoxide  problem so I will not  comment.

  

 Sorry I can't help any more.

  

 Regards,

 Bud

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