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jrlark

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 72

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:39 am Post subject: aileron trim

Hi all

  

 Question for those who have installed Vans electric  aileron trim, is there any reason the servo can not go in the right wing instead  of the left?

 Thx,  Rick

  

 Finish & FWF kits enroute

 #40956

 Southampton, Ont.

  

  

   [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: aileron trim

You will have to mirror image the plans........

I don't know of any reason, other than roll servo is usually installed 

in right wing, which shouldn't make much difference.

Not visualizing what advantage either wing would have, but have decided 

to defer getting aileron trim until have flown for awhile to decide if 

the perceived benefit merits the cost and labor.



On 11/2/2012 7:38 AM, Rick Lark wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi all

 Question for those who have installed Vans electric aileron trim, is 

 there any reason the servo can not go in the right wing instead of the 

 left?

 Thx,  Rick

 Finish & FWF kits enroute

 #40956

 Southampton, Ont.

 *

 *


	


-----

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: aileron trim

Speaking of which, does anybody have a digital copy of the aileron trim installation drawings? I am needing to make some adjustments on one of them and need to know how it is installed.



Thanks and do not archive



 Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

C: 352-427-0285

F: 815-377-3694  

  

On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:38 AM, Rick Lark <jrlark(at)bmts.com (jrlark(at)bmts.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi all

 

Question for those who have installed Vans electric aileron trim, is there any reason the servo can not go in the right wing instead of the left?

Thx,  Rick

 

Finish & FWF kits enroute

#40956

Southampton, Ont.

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	


	


 [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: aileron trim

Sent-offlist

On 11/2/2012 7:50 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Speaking of which, does anybody have a digital copy of the aileron 

 trim installation drawings? I am needing to make some adjustments on 

 one of them and need to know how it is installed.



 Thanks and do not archive



 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

 C: 352-427-0285

 F: 815-377-3694



 On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:38 AM, Rick Lark <jrlark(at)bmts.com 

 <mailto:jrlark(at)bmts.com>> wrote:



> Hi all

> Question for those who have installed Vans electric aileron trim, is 

> there any reason the servo can not go in the right wing instead of 

> the left?

> Thx,  Rick

> Finish & FWF kits enroute

> #40956

> Southampton, Ont.

> *

>

> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com

> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com

> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com

> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

>

> *

>



 *

 *


	


-----

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: aileron trim

Just my 2c, i use aileron trim on every flight and consider it 

standard equipment. Otherwise, you will have to constantly apply aileron 

force (when not on autopilot) to fly wings level as weight varies side 

to side.



Jae

do not archive



On 11/2/2012 7:47 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 You will have to mirror image the plans........

 I don't know of any reason, other than roll servo is usually installed 

 in right wing, which shouldn't make much difference.

 Not visualizing what advantage either wing would have, but have 

 decided to defer getting aileron trim until have flown for awhile to 

 decide if the perceived benefit merits the cost and labor.



 On 11/2/2012 7:38 AM, Rick Lark wrote:

> Hi all

> Question for those who have installed Vans electric aileron trim, is 

> there any reason the servo can not go in the right wing instead of 

> the left?

> Thx,  Rick

> Finish & FWF kits enroute

> #40956

> Southampton, Ont.

> *

> *




	




-- 

#40533 RV-10

First flight 10/19/2011

Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

do not archive

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: aileron trim

Depending on how often you fly alone and how far, I have used my trim, but 

the truth is I don’t see a real benefit to it. I use the fuel on the left 

side first and that usually balances out the plane for me, I have a tab on 

the rudder, works fine for me. No regrets with not adding a electric rudder 

trim. My point, You're are right on Kelly. Wait and see if you need it, just 

as I did with the rudder trim.



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: aileron trim

That is why I am waiting. I have flown my Mooney for 14 years with 

similar wing tanks, similar loads with all sorts of fuel imbalance with 

same pushrod type controls and didn't feel any need for aileron trim. 

Recognize RV-10 maybe different, with shorter wings, but since it can be 

installed later, I will wait and see.

Usually mods that we have spent money on turn out to be the best, and 

the rest...who knows.



On 11/2/2012 7:58 AM, Jae Chang wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  Just my 2c, i use aileron trim on every flight and consider it 

 standard equipment. Otherwise, you will have to constantly apply 

 aileron force (when not on autopilot) to fly wings level as weight 

 varies side to side.



 Jae

 do not archive




	




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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: aileron trim

I use mine about every other flight.  I would install again if starting 

over.



You getting close Kelly?  Maybe I'll run down there and see your project 

this winter when it's cold in SLC.



---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: Re: aileron trim

I use my aileron trim on a regular basis and would definitely do it again if I was building another -10. This airplane is more sensitive to lateral imbalance than any other light plane I have flown. I definitely would not install rudder trim if I was building again. I rarely use it.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: aileron trim

Kelly



Could you please also send it to me.



TIA

Carlos

--

kdbelue(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: aileron trim

Wow! That is the exact opposite for my plane. I don't use the aileron trim but need rudder trim all the time....



Kevin Belue

RV10

RV6A



Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 2, 2012, at 11:04 AM, "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I use my aileron trim on a regular basis and would definitely do it again if I was building another -10. This airplane is more sensitive to lateral imbalance than any other light plane I have flown. I definitely would not install rudder trim if I was building again. I rarely use it.

 

 --------

 David Maib

 RV-10 #40559

 Transition Trainer

 New Smyrna Beach, FL

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386556#386556

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: aileron trim

I love my rudder trim and use it all the time. I did the same to the 8A and once out of paint the rudder trim was inop and I miss it a lot. I will track down the 8A issue shortly and get back to coordinated flight with my feet on the floor. 

http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-10/RudderTrim.aspx 

Keep in mind you are building a superior cross country machine which means long flights. If you only have one ball you might as well center it. 



Robin



--

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:59 am Post subject: aileron trim

I use both rudder and aileron trim when hand flying and rudder trim when on

AP.  If I was building another 10 I would definitely put both in.  The

aileron trim is much more important when solo..... 



Rene' Felker

N423CF

801-721-6080



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: aileron trim

I sent, but email bounced.  Maybe if you send me a private email direct 

I can reply to that and attach.



On 11/2/2012 9:12 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:

[quote] 



 Kelly



 Could you please also send it to me.



 TIA

 Carlos

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:11 am Post subject: Re: aileron trim

I use my aileron trim every time I fly.  I can't believe how sensitive this airframe is to fuel imbalance and passenger load.  I like the option of having my Aerosport rudder trim, but I set it a while back and it hasn't moved in a while.

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: aileron trim

Hi Kelly.

Just to put a finer point on it from someone who has just a little time 

in a Mooney and 200+ in the '10.  The difference is in the relative 

'stiffness' of the aileron control.

As I recall, the Mooney has enough system stiffness that it  tends to 

blank out small roll trim requirements.  It's mainly a matter of 

managing the tanks to keep the trim close.  The wings tend to stay where 

you put them which is a very nice thing.

The RV10's control system is tight and light, but not stiff at all.  A 

small imbalance is easy to overcome but will require constant pressure 

and/or attention.  No big deal but no hands off at all if out of trim a 

little bit.

All this applies to hand flying only.  I find myself doing very little 

hand flying these days except for airport ops.  And frankly, I rarely 

touch the roll trim if I'm actively maneuvering the plane.  It's not 

really needed in that context.  It's just hand flying while smooth air 

cruising where trim is desired.  So if you cruise with the AP and manage 

the tanks properly, you really won't miss the roll trim at all.

There may be a difference between yoke flying versus the stick. My old 

Maule was always out of roll trim but without an AP, my hand was always 

on the yoke and it was easy to hold in the required roll trim.  I find 

the stick less comfortable in the same situation.  I actually miss my 

old yoke (shields up!)

Good Luck

Bill Watson - Durham NC

On 11/2/2012 11:15 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 That is why I am waiting. I have flown my Mooney for 14 years with 

 similar wing tanks, similar loads with all sorts of fuel imbalance 

 with same pushrod type controls and didn't feel any need for aileron 

 trim. Recognize RV-10 maybe different, with shorter wings, but since 

 it can be installed later, I will wait and see.

 Usually mods that we have spent money on turn out to be the best, and 

 the rest...who knows.

 On 11/2/2012 7:58 AM, Jae Chang wrote:

> 

>

>  Just my 2c, i use aileron trim on every flight and consider it 

> standard equipment. Otherwise, you will have to constantly apply 

> aileron force (when not on autopilot) to fly wings level as weight 

> varies side to side.

>

> Jae

> do not archive

>

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: aileron trim

Does anyone out there still believe in the KISS principal?  Like Bill, most of my distance flying is by autopilot, and if you monitor the tanks properly, it's really a non-issue.  Haven't found the need for either rudder or aileron trim.  Less weight, less $, less work, and maybe most important, less that can go wrong.

My 1 cents worth. 

Don McDonald

450 hours and counting.

  From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2012 9:13 AM

 Subject: Re: aileron trim

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

Hi Kelly.

Just to put a finer point on it from someone who has just a little time in a Mooney and 200+ in the '10.  The difference is in the relative 'stiffness' of the aileron control.

As I recall, the Mooney has enough system stiffness that it  tends to blank out small roll trim requirements.  It's mainly a matter of managing the tanks to keep the trim close.  The wings tend to stay where you put them which is a very nice thing.

The RV10's control system is tight and light, but not stiff at all.  A small imbalance is easy to overcome but will require constant pressure and/or attention.  No big deal but no hands off at all if out of trim a little bit.

All this applies to hand flying only.  I find myself doing very little hand  flying these days except for airport ops.  And frankly, I rarely touch the roll trim if I'm actively maneuvering the plane.  It's not really needed in that context.  It's just hand flying while smooth air cruising where trim is desired.  So if you cruise with the AP and manage the tanks properly, you really won't miss the roll trim at all.

There may be a difference between yoke flying versus the stick. My old Maule was always out of roll trim but without an AP, my hand was always on the yoke and it was easy to hold in the required roll trim.  I find the stick less comfortable in the same situation.  I actually miss my old yoke (shields up!)

Good Luck

Bill Watson - Durham NC

On 11/2/2012 11:15 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

  That is why I am waiting. I have flown my Mooney for 14 years with similar wing tanks, similar loads with all sorts of fuel imbalance with same pushrod type controls and didn't feel any need for aileron trim. Recognize RV-10 maybe different, with shorter wings, but since it can be installed later, I will wait and see.

 Usually mods that we have spent money on turn out to be the best, and the rest...who knows.

 On 11/2/2012 7:58 AM, Jae Chang wrote:

> --> RV10-List message posted by: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com (jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com)>

> 

>  Just my 2c, i use aileron trim on every flight and consider it standard equipment. Otherwise, you will have to constantly apply aileron force (when not on autopilot) to fly wings level as weight varies side to side.

> 

> Jae

> do not  archive

> 

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

ht===============

 [quote][b]

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

jdearborn(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:10 am Post subject: aileron trim

All good points.I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly. It is also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral. Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system. Years ago I instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is your friend!

Cheers,

Jim

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	

On Nov 3, 2012, at 9:59 AM, Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com (building_partner(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Does anyone out there still believe in the KISS principal?  Like Bill, most of my distance flying is by autopilot, and if you monitor the tanks properly, it's really a non-issue.  Haven't found the need for either rudder or aileron trim.  Less weight, less $, less work, and maybe most important, less that can go wrong.

My 1 cents worth. 

Don McDonald

450 hours and counting.

  From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2012 9:13 AM

 Subject: Re: aileron trim

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

Hi Kelly.

Just to put a finer point on it from someone who has just a little time in a Mooney and 200+ in the '10.  The difference is in the relative 'stiffness' of the aileron control.

As I recall, the Mooney has enough system stiffness that it  tends to blank out small roll trim requirements.  It's mainly a matter of managing the tanks to keep the trim close.  The wings tend to stay where you put them which is a very nice thing.

The RV10's control system is tight and light, but not stiff at all.  A small imbalance is easy to overcome but will require constant pressure and/or attention.  No big deal but no hands off at all if out of trim a little bit.

All this applies to hand flying only.  I find myself doing very little hand  flying these days except for airport ops.  And frankly, I rarely touch the roll trim if I'm actively maneuvering the plane.  It's not really needed in that context.  It's just hand flying while smooth air cruising where trim is desired.  So if you cruise with the AP and manage the tanks properly, you really won't miss the roll trim at all.

There may be a difference between yoke flying versus the stick. My old Maule was always out of roll trim but without an AP, my hand was always on the yoke and it was easy to hold in the required roll trim.  I find the stick less comfortable in the same situation.  I actually miss my old yoke (shields up!)

Good Luck

Bill Watson - Durham NC

On 11/2/2012 11:15 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

  That is why I am waiting. I have flown my Mooney for 14 years with similar wing tanks, similar loads with all sorts of fuel imbalance with same pushrod type controls and didn't feel any need for aileron trim. Recognize RV-10 maybe different, with shorter wings, but since it can be installed later, I will wait and see.

 Usually mods that we have spent money on turn out to be the best, and the rest...who knows.

 On 11/2/2012 7:58 AM, Jae Chang wrote:

> --> RV10-List message posted by: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com (jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com)>

> 

>  Just my 2c, i use aileron trim on every flight and consider it standard equipment. Otherwise, you will have to constantly apply aileron force (when not on autopilot) to fly wings level as weight varies side to side.

> 

> Jae

> do not  archive

> 

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

[/url]ht===============

[url=http://www.buildersbooks.com/%20%20*%20HomebuiltHELP%20%3Ca%20href=] 

[url=http://www.buildersbooks.com/%20%20*%20HomebuiltHELP%20%3Ca%20href=]  [/url]

[url=http://www.buildersbooks.com/%20%20*%20HomebuiltHELP%20%3Ca%20href=] [/url] 	  Quote: 	

face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: aileron trim

Funny you should mention the complete       circuit using trim.  Years ago when trying to learn to land a C150       at age 16, the instructor flew the pattern with trim-only.  Pitch       trim that is, and rudder and power of course.  It showed me how       unnnecessary my death grip on the yoke was.

       

       Anyway, does that mean that the MD-11 A/P didn't operate the trim       when engaged?  Or was it just a good habit that shouldn't be       broken?

       

       Bill "still thinks his TruTrak AP is a magical gift from the gods"       Watson

       

       On 11/3/2012 2:10 PM, James Dearborn wrote:

     

     [quote]              All good points.       I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed         hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly. It is         also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot         is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before         engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P         enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral.         Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system. Years ago I         instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a         complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is         your friend!

       Cheers,

       Jim

       

       

       do not archive

       

     [b]

jdearborn(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:36 am Post subject: aileron trim

Hi Bill,

The pitch trim on the 'Dog' is very good and works on the A/P. Roll and yaw trim are manual. The system trims by taking out control pressure to within a certain value. This will allow 'some' amount of control pressure to build up before the actuator moves to neutralize the elevator control pressure. One can engage the autopilot when not 'in trim' and the system will trim for you. If the elevator is too far out of neutral pressure the A/P would not engage. The A/P will also disengage if an excessive control pressure can not be trimmed out and the accumulated pressure exceeds a certain value.

Another factor that needs to be considered is what happens if the A/P fails or the A/P is simply disengaged when an out of trim condition is present. Generally an abrupt control input is the result. This is undesirable, particularly at Mins.

I'm new to small airplane autopilots and their capabilities, but I'm eager to learn. The avionics for the homebuilt industry is amazing. That being said, it seems that using the aileron control servos to "trim" for you will cause an unbalanced flight condition. . . maybe a yaw damper would help. Unbalanced flight is less efficient, hence more fuel burn.

I think it is a good habit to always be in trim. I've been fortunate to be flying for fifty years and believe in stacking the deck in my favor when I can.

Final caution, "George", the A/P, is a great tool, but don't let him become a crutch.

Cheers,

Jim

do not archive 



On Nov 3, 2012, at 1:36 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                     Funny you should mention the complete       circuit using trim.  Years ago when trying to learn to land a C150       at age 16, the instructor flew the pattern with trim-only.  Pitch       trim that is, and rudder and power of course.  It showed me how       unnnecessary my death grip on the yoke was.

       

       Anyway, does that mean that the MD-11 A/P didn't operate the trim       when engaged?  Or was it just a good habit that shouldn't be       broken?

       

       Bill "still thinks his TruTrak AP is a magical gift from the gods"       Watson

       

       On 11/3/2012 2:10 PM, James Dearborn wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                All good points.       I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed         hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly. It is         also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot         is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before         engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P         enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral.         Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system. Years ago I         instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a         complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is         your friend!

       Cheers,

       Jim

       

       

       do not archive

       

     



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