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Dirty Laundry

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jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: Dirty Laundry

I just wanted to share an issue that we discovered during our annual inspection.  This is just a bit embarrassing since we seemed to have potentially solved some issues that we have been having since shortly after we first started flying our airplane (450 hours).  But unless we are willing to share our ‘embarrassing’ errors we will not save others from making the same mistake.



As some may know we have struggled to run anything near LOP without the engine ‘stumbling’, we made many modifications to help this situation and made significant improvements, but were never comfortable with the way the engine ran LOP.  We blamed this on the James Cowl and Plenum installation; I am not saying our discovery takes the cowl and plenum off the table as contributing factors to LOP issues.



Lately, our CHT temps started rising, and we were unable to climb at altitude without getting the CHT’s above 400.  We also noticed a fuel smell on takeoff, I have searched high and low for the source of the fuel smell.  Our engine has always idled a little rough; we were told and convinced that this was caused by the fuel vaporizing in the injector lines since we had a tight cowl and plenum.



Then we gained a symptom that lead to discovering our problem.  Lately our idle RPM rose to around 1050 – this was the symptom that got me looking for intake leaks.  There it was, four of our intake gaskets were obviously leaking.  We could see the gaskets were out of place, so I pulled all of the intake tubes and found some amazing gasket placements.  The picture below shows one of the gaskets, this is as it came off the engine.



So after replacing the gaskets and performing the ‘rest’ of the annual a test flight was in order.  Wow, someone hung a brand new engine!  Keep in mind we have only done one test flight, so the data is very limited – but there was noticeable improvement.  CHT’s down, no fuel smell, pull the mixture and the engine just sort of looses power without any stumble at all, idle speed down to 650.  Also of note, during full power static run-up our fuel flow went from 20.2 GPH to 23.5 GPH.

I have a hard time believing that the engine was assembled with the gaskets out of place, I also have a hard time believing that the gaskets have not been leaking for some time, perhaps even very early on, and obviously getting worse.



There it is – our dirty laundry, hopefully this information is useful to others.



Thanks, Jason

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_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: Dirty Laundry

Jason,



Are you fuel injected or carburated?



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

C: 352-427-0285

F: 815-377-3694



On Nov 27, 2012, at 11:38 AM, jkreidler <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I just wanted to share an issue that we discovered during our annual inspection.  This is just a bit embarrassing since we seemed to have potentially solved some issues that we have been having since shortly after we first started flying our airplane (450 hours).  But unless we are willing to share our ‘embarrassing’ errors we will not save others from making the same mistake.

 

 As some may know we have struggled to run anything near LOP without the engine ‘stumbling’, we made many modifications to help this situation and made significant improvements, but were never comfortable with the way the engine ran LOP.  We blamed this on the James Cowl and Plenum installation; I am not saying our discovery takes the cowl and plenum off the table as contributing factors to LOP issues.

 

 Lately, our CHT temps started rising, and we were unable to climb at altitude without getting the CHT’s above 400.  We also noticed a fuel smell on takeoff, I have searched high and low for the source of the fuel smell.  Our engine has always idled a little rough; we were told and convinced that this was caused by the fuel vaporizing in the injector lines since we had a tight cowl and plenum.

 

 Then we gained a symptom that lead to discovering our problem.  Lately our idle RPM rose to around 1050 – this was the symptom that got me looking for intake leaks.  There it was, four of our intake gaskets were obviously leaking.  We could see the gaskets were out of place, so I pulled all of the intake tubes and found some amazing gasket placements.  The picture below shows one of the gaskets, this is as it came off the engine.

 

 So after replacing the gaskets and performing the ‘rest’ of the annual a test flight was in order.  Wow, someone hung a brand new engine!  Keep in mind we have only done one test flight, so the data is very limited – but there was noticeable improvement.  CHT’s down, no fuel smell, pull the mixture and the engine just sort of looses power without any stumble at all, idle speed down to 650.  Also of note, during full power static run-up our fuel flow went from 20.2 GPH to 23.5 GPH.

 I have a hard time believing that the engine was assembled with the gaskets out of place, I also have a hard time believing that the gaskets have not been leaking for some time, perhaps even very early on, and obviously getting worse.

 

 There it is – our dirty laundry, hopefully this information is useful to others.

 

 Thanks, Jason

 

 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389123#389123

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_2_707.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_1_150.jpg

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sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:03 am Post subject: Dirty Laundry

I just mounted the engine a few days ago. When reading up on some other 

points, I've read of so many issues with the intake gaskets that I will 

be pulling my intakes and checking them. I'll be applying a small bit of 

Hylomar Universal Blue on them during re-assembly after seeing so many 

issues with crumbling intake gaskets.



-Sean #40303 (assembling engine baffling)



On 11/27/12 10:38 AM, jkreidler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just wanted to share an issue that we discovered during our annual inspection.  This is just a bit embarrassing since we seemed to have potentially solved some issues that we have been having since shortly after we first started flying our airplane (450 hours).  But unless we are willing to share our ‘embarrassing’ errors we will not save others from making the same mistake.



 As some may know we have struggled to run anything near LOP without the engine ‘stumbling’, we made many modifications to help this situation and made significant improvements, but were never comfortable with the way the engine ran LOP.  We blamed this on the James Cowl and Plenum installation; I am not saying our discovery takes the cowl and plenum off the table as contributing factors to LOP issues.



 Lately, our CHT temps started rising, and we were unable to climb at altitude without getting the CHT’s above 400.  We also noticed a fuel smell on takeoff, I have searched high and low for the source of the fuel smell.  Our engine has always idled a little rough; we were told and convinced that this was caused by the fuel vaporizing in the injector lines since we had a tight cowl and plenum.



 Then we gained a symptom that lead to discovering our problem.  Lately our idle RPM rose to around 1050 – this was the symptom that got me looking for intake leaks.  There it was, four of our intake gaskets were obviously leaking.  We could see the gaskets were out of place, so I pulled all of the intake tubes and found some amazing gasket placements.  The picture below shows one of the gaskets, this is as it came off the engine.



 So after replacing the gaskets and performing the ‘rest’ of the annual a test flight was in order.  Wow, someone hung a brand new engine!  Keep in mind we have only done one test flight, so the data is very limited – but there was noticeable improvement.  CHT’s down, no fuel smell, pull the mixture and the engine just sort of looses power without any stumble at all, idle speed down to 650.  Also of note, during full power static run-up our fuel flow went from 20.2 GPH to 23.5 GPH.

 I have a hard time believing that the engine was assembled with the gaskets out of place, I also have a hard time believing that the gaskets have not been leaking for some time, perhaps even very early on, and obviously getting worse.



 There it is – our dirty laundry, hopefully this information is useful to others.



 Thanks, Jason



 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389123#389123





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_2_707.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_1_150.jpg

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: Dirty Laundry

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Jason, maybe I missed it but was your engine new or rebuilt?

 [quote]   ---

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jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Dirty Laundry

New - Lycoming - Thunderbolt

IO-540-D4A5

260 HP (Std Compression)

Airflow Performance Injection

Dual Mags



Thanks Jason

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_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:10 am Post subject: Dirty Laundry

I think you owe it to Lycoming/Thunderbolt to tell them there is a problem 

and your thoughts. They need to know this for their own feedback not as a 

criticism. Sure, my rebuilt had issues and Americas engine came through each 

and everytime for me sent me whatever I need to resolve "setting" breaking 

in issues. They were grateful for my feedback is the point and I think 

Thunderbolt will too.

Nice job getting this resolved!



--

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Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: Dirty Laundry

Keeping your note in mind, I looked at each intake port gasket externally on my new to me engine that arrived this afternoon. All looked good.



On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:55 AM, jkreidler <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)>

  

 New - Lycoming - Thunderbolt

 IO-540-D4A5

 260 HP (Std Compression)

 Airflow Performance Injection

 Dual Mags

 

 Thanks Jason

 

 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=389204#389204

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

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