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alienwes

Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 64
Location: Roswell, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:32 am Post subject: Engines

I am soliciting opinions on the engines for the Kolb. I know this is going to vary.



Do any of the engines have problems overheating in the pusher configuration of the KOLB?



Which engine is the most reliable? 912?



Is the 582 a bit underpowered in the Mark III?



If you had a choice without consideration for the price differences, what engine would you choose?



Wes

_________________
Wesley Elliott
Sport Pilot-PPC

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: Engines

I am soliciting opinions on the engines for the Kolb. I know this is going

to vary.



Do any of the engines have problems overheating in the pusher configuration

of the KOLB?



Which engine is the most reliable? 912?



Is the 582 a bit underpowered in the Mark III?



If you had a choice without consideration for the price differences, what

engine would you choose?



Wes



--------

Wesley Elliott

 



Wes E/Kolbers:



I have never had an overheating problem with any of the Rotax or Cuyuna

engines on Kolb aircraft.



The 912 series engines are extremely reliable.  I have been flying the 912

since 1994, before it was designated the 912UL.  Presently flying with a

912ULS.



The 582 has plenty power to fly the MKIII.  That was my initial power plant

on my MKIII.  Lasted 220 hours before it seized.  Suspected cold seizure.

Thermostat was probably the contributing factor.



I have flown well over 3,000 hours in front of the 912 series engines.  That

is the engine I choose to fly with.



912 is low maintenance.  Change the oil, spark plugs, and clean the air

filters, and you are good to go.



john h

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:07 am Post subject: Engines

" I have been flying the 912 since 1994, before it was designated the

912UL "



Not enough coffee this morning.  Been flying the 912's since 1992, 21 years

this coming March 15.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

dan42101(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:18 am Post subject: Engines

A cure for the cold seize on the 582...  Manual radiator shutters.  You can even install a Vernier throttle cable to control them, then you can eliminate the thermostat altogether. http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/radshutters.htm



Cold seize story...  

http://www.reocities.com/hester-hoptown/582Tips/582tips.html

You will have to hold the mouse button down and drag to make the text show through the black "reocities" overlay...



--- On Sat, 1/5/13, John Hauck  <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

[quote]

From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Subject: RE: Engines

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, January 5, 2013, 8:03 AM



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <[url=/mc/compose?to=jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com]jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com[/url]>



 



I am soliciting opinions on the engines for the Kolb. I know this is going

to vary.



Do any of the engines have problems overheating in the pusher configuration

of the KOLB?



Which engine is the most reliable? 912?



Is the 582 a bit underpowered in the Mark III?



If you had a choice without  consideration for the price differences, what

engine would you choose?



Wes



--------

Wesley Elliott

 



Wes E/Kolbers:



I have never had an overheating problem with any of the Rotax or Cuyuna

engines on Kolb aircraft.



The 912 series engines are extremely reliable.  I have been flying the 912

since 1994, before it was designated the 912UL.  Presently flying with a

912ULS.



The 582 has plenty power to fly the MKIII.  That was my initial power plant

on my MKIII.  Lasted 220 hours before it seized.  Suspected cold seizure.

Thermostat was probably the contributing factor.



I have flown well over 3,000 hours in front of the 912 series engines.  That

is the engine I choose to fly with.



912 is low maintenance.  Change the oil, spark plugs, and clean the air

filters, and you are good to go.



john h

Titus, =   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:26 am Post subject: Engines

A cure for the cold seize on the 582...  Manual radiator shutters.  You can

even install a Vernier throttle cable to control them, then you can

eliminate the thermostat altogether. 

http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/radshutters.htm

 



Kolbers:



I cured the problem.  After I rebuilt the 582, I traded it for an 80 hp 912.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: Engines

Wes



I was the first to fly a direct drive and now redrive VW on a Kolb. Its a good engine but if money was no object I would have put a Rotax 912 on it. Yes the VW has over heating problems on the ground. I have to limit run time on the ground but get airborne where air is moving through the cooling system there are no problems. But the VW is not sold as a engine package, it is easy to built and run these engines at high power levels that will overpower their ability to stay cool even in the air. Anything over 80-90 HP continuous is likely to over heat.

 



I have no doubt that I will get flamed for this but The old reliable 912 isn't completely without issues. I just found out that the 912 powered Sport Cruisers that I normally rent in Florida have been sold because they just required too much maintenance. It seems that the high frequency vibration from these engines causes a bunch of metal fatigue issues with exhaust systems and other systems on and around these engines. Talk to any 912 driver that has any significant hours on their engines and they will report similar problems. Compared to higher RPM 2 stroke engines the issue is almost non existent. But compared to low RPM direct drive GA engines it is a problem.

 



As usual worth what you paid for it.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 8:32 AM, alienwes <elliott.wesley(at)yahoo.com (elliott.wesley(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "alienwes" <elliott.wesley(at)yahoo.com (elliott.wesley(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 I am soliciting opinions on the engines for the Kolb. I know this is going to vary.

 

 Do any of the engines have problems overheating in the pusher configuration of the KOLB?

 

 Which engine is the most reliable? 912?

 

 Is the 582 a bit underpowered in the Mark III?

 

 If you had a choice without consideration for the price differences, what engine would you choose?

 

 Wes

 

 --------

 Wesley Elliott

 Sport Pilot-PPC

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391641#391641

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: Engines

I have no doubt that I will get flamed for this but The old reliable 912

isn't completely without issues. I just found out that the 912 powered Sport

Cruisers that I normally rent in Florida have been sold because they just

required too much maintenance. It seems that the high frequency vibration

from these engines causes a bunch of metal fatigue issues

with exhaust systems and other systems on and around these engines. Talk to

any 912 driver that has any significant hours on their engines and they will

report similar problems. Compared to higher RPM 2 stroke engines the issue

is almost non existent. But compared to low RPM direct drive GA engines it

is a problem.



As usual worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

 

Rick N/Kolbers:



I've been doing this a long time, both two and four stroke engines.



The old reliable 912 is just that.  If the aircraft you reference had

vibration problems, it was caused by prop balance and/or engine mounts.  Not

the engine, unless they let the carbs get excessively out of sync.  As I

said in an earlier post, the 912 is a low maintenance engine.



Don't know if I am a high time 912 owner or not, but over 3,000.0 hours of

912 time in my MKIII, plus quite a few hours in Kolb Factory aircraft

powered by the 912, over the years, I have not experienced the problems you

describe.



This is the first time I have heard of this problem with the 912 series

engines.



Based on my experience, there is no comparison between a two and four stroke

Rotax.



I personally prefer the 912 over a GA recip engine, and that is based on

actual flight experience over some very hostile terrain in the Lower 48,

Canada, and Alaska.



You probably don't have a lot of actual experience flying a 912 powered Kolb

aircraft.



Because an engine is designed to operate at higher rpm's does not mean it is

going to tear itself apart.  That is the mentality that a lot of GA types

have when comparing a slow turning Lycoming or Continental.  The torsion

vibration of a 912 is controlled by a very effective system.  GA recip

engines have no damper.  Correct me if I am wrong, but your VW redrive

system uses slippage in the drive belt to dampen torsion vibration.



john h

mkIII 

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: Engines

John



I don't think I said that there was engine reliability problem. I think it can be safely said that the 912 series of engine are just as reliable as a GA engine maybe more so.

 But the high frequency vibration of these engines even when properly maintained takes a toll on engine systems. It is fairly common to have a GA exhaust system remain crack free to the engines TBO and well beyond. Can you honestly say that about the exhaust systems on your airplane or others we fly with? You talk about letting the carbs get out of sync, isn't that maintenance, is this effected by vibration? How often does a GA engine have to have its carbs synced. Seems like you guys frequently replace the rubber carb sockets or what ever you call them. 

 



My point was, it is all based on your point of reference. A two stroke driver would think that a 912 is extremely reliable some would say bullet proof. A aircraft rental FBO that is used to maintaining GA airplanes would consider having to replace carb sockets, exahust systems, syncing carbs and other things as unreliable even if the engine runs just as long.

 



 On my last check ride my instructor commented that my VW was smoother than his 912. And yes my drive belts slip every minute my engine is running. I inspect them every time I fly and adjust them after the first hour and about every 40-80 hours. I can tell when the belts need adjusting when the RPMs start increasing over my normal full throttle climb RPM. I replace them every 100-200 hours or no more than two years. What was your point?

 



I will say it again if money was no object I would be flying a 912 or a GA engine if they weren't so blessed heavy.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 

Rick Neilsen



On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 11:13 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

  

 

 

 I have no doubt that I will get flamed for this but The old reliable 912

 isn't completely without issues. I just found out that the 912 powered Sport

 Cruisers that I normally rent in Florida have been sold because they just

 required too much maintenance. It seems that the high frequency vibration

 from these engines causes a bunch of metal fatigue issues

 with exhaust systems and other systems on and around these engines. Talk to

 any 912 driver that has any significant hours on their engines and they will

 report similar problems. Compared to higher RPM 2 stroke engines the issue

 is almost non existent. But compared to low RPM direct drive GA engines it

 is a problem.

 

 As usual worth what you paid for it.

 

 Rick Neilsen

 

 

 

 

Rick N/Kolbers:

 

 I've been doing this a long time, both two and four stroke engines.

 

 The old reliable 912 is just that.  If the aircraft you reference had

 vibration problems, it was caused by prop balance and/or engine mounts.  Not

 the engine, unless they let the carbs get excessively out of sync.  As I

 said in an earlier post, the 912 is a low maintenance engine.

 

 Don't know if I am a high time 912 owner or not, but over 3,000.0 hours of

 912 time in my MKIII, plus quite a few hours in Kolb Factory aircraft

 powered by the 912, over the years, I have not experienced the problems you

 describe.

 

 This is the first time I have heard of this problem with the 912 series

 engines.

 

 Based on my experience, there is no comparison between a two and four stroke

 Rotax.

 

 I personally prefer the 912 over a GA recip engine, and that is based on

 actual flight experience over some very hostile terrain in the Lower 48,

 Canada, and Alaska.

 

 You probably don't have a lot of actual experience flying a 912 powered Kolb

 aircraft.

 

 Because an engine is designed to operate at higher rpm's does not mean it is

 going to tear itself apart.  That is the mentality that a lot of GA types

 have when comparing a slow turning Lycoming or Continental.  The torsion

 vibration of a 912 is controlled by a very effective system.  GA recip

 engines have no damper.  Correct me if I am wrong, but your VW redrive

 system uses slippage in the drive belt to dampen torsion vibration.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 =

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:33 pm Post subject: Engines

I've sync'd the carbs on my present 912uls twice in 619.1 hours.  The first time was when I mounted the zero time engine.

 

When a 912 carb gets out of sync it is because cable stretch and normal hardware wear.  Not because of a high freq vibration.  If there is vibration, as I said in my last post, it is because of prop and engine mounts.

 

How many GA engines have dual carbs?  None that I know of right off hand.

 

I've never flown in your airplane.  You have flown in mine at Monument Valley, UT.  You know which aircraft has the smoothest running engine and prop.

 

I forgot what my point was, but seems ramped dogs and a slip clutch is a better system for torsion vibration damping than a slipping belt.

 

I've replaced the carb sockets on my present 912uls once.  I think that was last year.  Been flying that engine since 13 Apr 2007.  On my second exhaust system now.  The initial system was designed by and manufactured for Rick Thomason to fly on an enclosed tractor, the Starlite.  Didn't realize it at the time, but was poorly designed and built.  John W and I both flew with that system.  They came apart, not because of high freq vibration, but poor quality.  Replaced with a Titan system that is working great.

 

If an engine has a high frequency vibration problem, it doesn't take long for it to start showing up with cracked tubing in the airframe, especially with the engine mount system we use on Kolb Aircraft.

 

I can see where carb sockets would not last as long on an enclosed tractor compared to an open pusher.  There is a lot of heat inside that cowling, especially on the ground.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

 



But the high frequency vibration of these engines even when properly maintained takes a toll on engine systems. It is fairly common to have a GA exhaust system remain crack free to the engines TBO and well beyond. Can you honestly say that about the exhaust systems on your airplane or others we fly with? You talk about letting the carbs get out of sync, isn't that maintenance, is this effected by vibration? How often does a GA engine have to have its carbs synced. Seems like you guys frequently replace the rubber carb sockets or what ever you call them. 



 



My point was, it is all based on your point of reference. A two stroke driver would think that a 912 is extremely reliable some would say bullet proof. A aircraft rental FBO that is used to maintaining GA airplanes would consider having to replace carb sockets, exahust systems, syncing carbs and other things as unreliable even if the engine runs just as long.



 



 On my last check ride my instructor commented that my VW was smoother than his 912. And yes my drive belts slip every minute my engine is running. I inspect them every time I fly and adjust them after the first hour and about every 40-80 hours. I can tell when the belts need adjusting when the RPMs start increasing over my normal full throttle climb RPM. I replace them every 100-200 hours or no more than two years. What was your point?



 



I will say it again if money was no object I would be flying a 912 or a GA engine if they weren't so blessed heavy.



 



Rick Neilsen



Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 



 



 



Rick Neilsen

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 11:13 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>



I have no doubt that I will get flamed for this but The old reliable 912

isn't completely without issues. I just found out that the 912 powered Sport

Cruisers that I normally rent in Florida have been sold because they just

required too much maintenance. It seems that the high frequency vibration

from these engines causes a bunch of metal fatigue issues

with exhaust systems and other systems on and around these engines. Talk to

any 912 driver that has any significant hours on their engines and they will

report similar problems. Compared to higher RPM 2 stroke engines the issue

is almost non existent. But compared to low RPM direct drive GA engines it

is a problem.



As usual worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>



Rick N/Kolbers:



I've been doing this a long time, both two and four stroke engines.



The old reliable 912 is just that.  If the aircraft you reference had

vibration problems, it was caused by prop balance and/or engine mounts.  Not

the engine, unless they let the carbs get excessively out of sync.  As I

said in an earlier post, the 912 is a low maintenance engine.



Don't know if I am a high time 912 owner or not, but over 3,000.0 hours of

912 time in my MKIII, plus quite a few hours in Kolb Factory aircraft

powered by the 912, over the years, I have not experienced the problems you

describe.



This is the first time I have heard of this problem with the 912 series

engines.



Based on my experience, there is no comparison between a two and four stroke

Rotax.



I personally prefer the 912 over a GA recip engine, and that is based on

actual flight experience over some very hostile terrain in the Lower 48,

Canada, and Alaska.



You probably don't have a lot of actual experience flying a 912 powered Kolb

aircraft.



Because an engine is designed to operate at higher rpm's does not mean it is

going to tear itself apart.  That is the mentality that a lot of GA types

have when comparing a slow turning Lycoming or Continental.  The torsion

vibration of a 912 is controlled by a very effective system.  GA recip

engines have no damper.  Correct me if I am wrong, but your VW redrive

system uses slippage in the drive belt to dampen torsion vibration.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



=

arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

===========

http://forums.matronics.com

===========

le, List Admin.

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========

<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>



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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

alienwes

Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 64
Location: Roswell, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Engines

It is good to hear that the 582 has enough power for the Mark III. The 582 in my Powered Parachute is OK, but would like more climb when I am 2 up. And mine is considered a lighter PPC, with some of the heavier PPC's out there the climb is even worse. I have the louvers on my grey head 582. It does help me feel better about preventing a cold seizure.

_________________
Wesley Elliott
Sport Pilot-PPC

e.bayliss(at)blueyonder.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: Engines

Wesley

  I fly a mk1111c with a 582 and an arplast 62" three blade prop Here in the 

uk ( Liverpool) Our field is only about 10ft above sea level and When flying 

at max weigth ( over here 395 kilos ) in reality usually 10 or so kilos more 

with two heavyish people in her and full to the brim tanks I am off the 

ground in well under half of our 390 metre shortest runway and can usually 

get a climb rate of around 800fpm even in quite warm weather at about 55/60 

mph airspeed .When in the cruise 55/60mph at about 5400rpm gets me in the 

region of 14/15 litres per hour a well usuable aircraft

Eddie Bayliss mk111c 582 arplats prop liverpool uk

---

alienwes

Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 64
Location: Roswell, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Engines

Wow Eddie! Thats some good climb. I am used to only 300 fpm in my PPC on hot days and 2 up. I am at 3000 msl but on summer evenings density altitude is around 7000.

_________________
Wesley Elliott
Sport Pilot-PPC

e.bayliss(at)blueyonder.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:18 am Post subject: Engines

Yes I am more than  happy with the climb rate of my Kolb but have to point 

out I have never checked the accuracy of the vsi but judging from the climb 

angle and the time to reach altitude it cant be too far off the mark

---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Engines

Rick,

...It seems that the high frequency vibration from these engines causes a bunch of metal fatigue issues withï¿½exhaustï¿½systems and other systems on and around these engines. Talk to any 912 driver that has any significant hours on their engines and they will reportï¿½similarï¿½problems....



A little clarification on this subject is needed. Following is my experience in this regard:



I've owned 4 different airplanes with 912 engines. I've also been maintaining several other 912 powered aircraft for about 11 years. Only one of them ever had a cracked exhaust system problem. 



Allegro 2000 is the one that had regular and continued exhaust system cracking. It was due to crappy materials and design. It had absolutely nothing to do with the engine vibrations. I maintained all of these airplanes so the differences in maintenance was not the cause either. All 4 airplanes had at least several hundred hours on them, but only the Allegro, made in Czech Republic just like the Sport Cruiser, had exhaust system cracking problem. When I took the cracked exhaust system to a highly qualified local welder to repair the first time, he had a hard time welding it. He had never seen any kind of metal like it, ever, and he had been welding anything and everything for over 30 years. After second time it cracked I ordered a new, recently redesigned exhaust piece from the factory. It was so redesigned that it would not fit the old muffler. So I had the old one repaired again and sold the airplane, warning the new owner that he would have exhaust system cracking before long.... and he did.



I'm now half owner of a Diamond Katana with Rotax 912-F3 engine which is second 912 engine in this airframe. First one was an A3 model which had about 1500 hours on it when it was swapped for the newer F3 model, which now has 1100+ hours on it. The original exhaust system is still on the airplane and has over 2600 hours on it with no cracks or other issues. There are no differences between the 912UL engines and the type certificated 912F3 engines in internal parts. The only differences are in some external systems such as fuel lines, oil lines, and double carb springs instead of single on the UL, and of course the paper work trail.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:40 am Post subject: Re: Engines

> I was the first to fly a direct drive and now redrive VW on a Kolb.



Rick, what have you heard about the actual proven benefits of the nikasil cylinders for the VW?



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: Engines

GeoB

I have no personal experience with the nikasil cylinders for VW engines. I had been told by Steve Bennitt (sp) at Great Plains Aircraft that they are 10# lighter than steel and have much better heat transfer. The last time I talked to Steve he had said that they weren't working out and he no longer recommended them. 



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 



On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 4:40 AM, GeoB <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "GeoB" <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)>

  

 > I was the first to fly a direct drive and now redrive VW on a Kolb.

 

 Rick, what have you heard about the actual proven benefits of the nikasil cylinders for the VW?

 

 GeoB

 

 --------

 GeoB

 

 &quot;Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors&quot;

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391745#391745

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

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