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Brain Picking Engine 912

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase, I  had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly  after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle  input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first  several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing  downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew  again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time  and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.  Needless to say, I  took the half turn out to get the idle lower for final.  I need some wisdom  from the other guys running the 912.

  

 Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many  have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank  set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the  ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down  stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn mower  does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to re-start,  but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

  

 Lowell

   



   [quote][b]

jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

My crash was on video unfortunately and i walked away with minor     damage.  I'm sure you prob already checked ....but what i found was     an o ring in the fuel line shut off valve had disintegrated and that     sliver was in the carb bowl prior to adding a 3rd filter and only     intermittantly it would suck that sliver into the jet.

     On 1/17/2013 2:22 PM, Lowell Fitt       wrote:

     

     [quote]                     I need some help.  During my 40 hour           test phase, I had a three or four instances where the engine           quit at the flare or shortly after touch down.  hearing the           engine spin down prompted a throttle input that did nothing.            Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes.  it           happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing           downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop           and flew again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude           going around the first time and a vigorous side slip to get           down the second time.  Needless to say, I took the half turn           out to get the idle lower for final.  I need some wisdom from           the other guys running the 912.

        

       Info - I lightened the throttle springs           as many have. 3  I have the vernier throttle with the typical           Model IV bell crank set-up and typically give it a quarter           turn or so to the left to make sure the ball is in the           groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down stream           from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn           mower does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very           difficult to re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or           on first start.

        

       Lowell

                 

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:56 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

On 1/17/2013 12:22 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes.  	
 

 This symptom brings to mind two possibilities:

    Engine flooding. Someone already mentioned debris in the carb leading to excessive fuel. Have you tried simply leaning the idle jet? I know the 582 was notorious for running rich at idle and I had the same thing happen once in Idaho, where because of the altitude the idle was way too rich.   
Vapor lock. Yours being a new aircraft, it's possible you've got some part of the fuel system heat soaking and vaporizing. Then you don't get any fuel until things cool down. You check this by popping the bowls before re-starting. If they're empty, you might have a vapor lock somewhere.

     Guy Buchanan

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

 Now a glider pilot, too.

 

 

    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:58 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Lowell this sounds like a problem of to much fuel.  It sounds like the engine is flooding when you pull back the throttle.  If you have plenty of room try turning off the aux pump before landing or tie the tail down and do a mock circuit and see if the engine still stalls a few minutes after pulling back the throttle.



Noel



Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



 I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase, I  had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly  after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle  input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first  several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing  downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew  again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time  and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.  Needless to say, I  took the half turn out to get the idle lower for final.  I need some wisdom  from the other guys running the 912.

  

 Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many  have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank  set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the  ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down  stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn mower  does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to re-start,  but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

  

 Lowell

   



   [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

VIXEN

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 35

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Hi Lowell

I wonder why you are running the aux fuel pump? It may be possibly excessive pressure in the system. Do you have a return line back to the gascolator or tank? I found that before installing my return line, the pressure would build up to over 10psi after shut down just from expansion due the engine heat! This resulted in hard "hot starts" and flooding

 Just a few ideas to add to the mix!!

Good luck

Don

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan(at)cox.net (gebuchanan(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 [quote]           On 1/17/2013 12:22 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  Re-starting was impossible for the first several minutes.  	
 



 This symptom brings to mind two possibilities:

    Engine flooding. Someone already mentioned debris in the carb leading to excessive fuel. Have you tried simply leaning the idle jet? I know the 582 was notorious for running rich at idle and I had the same thing happen once in Idaho, where because of the altitude the idle was way too rich.   
Vapor lock. Yours being a new aircraft, it's possible you've got some part of the fuel system heat soaking and vaporizing. Then you don't get any fuel until things cool down. You check this by popping the bowls before re-starting. If they're empty, you might have a vapor lock somewhere.

     Guy Buchanan

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

 Now a glider pilot, too.

 

 

     	  Quote: 	
		  



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

redrocketrider

Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 67
Location: Nervino airport

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Hi Lowell, Bob up here in the  sierra's, what do you have the idle RPM set at after it warms up? I use around  1600 to 1800 and with the wood 3 Blade, it to wants to float a bit  until I get the A/S below fifty or so, I think that the clutch  set up that a few people use eliminates that float being caused by excess thrust  at Idle. I do know that this little ship will keep you honest in you flying  skills dept. Bob

  

  

 From: Noel R. C. Loveys (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca) 

 [quote]      Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:57 PM

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912



   



Lowell this sounds like a problem of to much fuel. It sounds    like the engine is flooding when you pull back the throttle. If you have    plenty of room try turning off the aux pump before landing or tie the tail    down and do a mock circuit and see if the engine still stalls a few minutes    after pulling back the throttle.



Noel



Lowell Fitt    <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



   I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase,    I had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly    after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle    input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first    several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane    nearing downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop    and flew again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the    first time and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.     Needless to say, I took the half turn out to get the idle lower for    final.  I need some wisdom from the other guys running the    912.

    

   Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many    have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank    set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the    ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down    stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn    mower does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to    re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

    

   Lowell

       



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
ï¿½ï¿½~ï¿½ï¿½,gï¿½ï¿½[b]

_________________
Keep the dirty side down/Blue skies. Bob

sourdostan(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Hi Lowell- 

 

  I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to keep the aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the case in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a sump in the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your problem?

  

 

  Stan Specht

  KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'

  Denver, CO

 

 

  --

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Thanks all for the ideas.  Stan, I think the header  tank would compensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring up an  interesting thought.  My gear legs are a bit taller than most and the nose  does point up more at three point attitude, but then it starts pretty normally  when cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a while.  A neighbor  heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle and possibly flooding, other  posts mentioning too lean gives me something to work with as I can run the idle  jet both ways to see which works best, then there is the spark plug check after  it quits - dry and white, or dark and moist.

  

 The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some  names that mean a lot to me in the Kitfox world.

  

 Thanks,

 Lowell

  



  From: Stan Specht (sourdostan(at)aol.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

 



Hi Lowell-  



 I seem to remember a few years back we  were warned not to keep the aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long,  as would be the case in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would  quit flowing from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in  a sump in the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your  problem?

 



 Stan Specht

 KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still  cookin'

 Denver, CO

 -----Original  Message-----

From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

To:  kitfox-list <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 1:23  pm

Subject: Brain Picking Engine 912



  I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase, I  had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly  after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle  input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first  several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing  downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew  again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time  and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.  Needless to say, I  took the half turn out to get the idle lower for final.  I need some wisdom  from the other guys running the 912.

  

 Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many  have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank  set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the  ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down  stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn mower  does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to re-start,  but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

  

 Lowell

   



 	  Quote: 	
		  



tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:18 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Look at this:



http://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm



On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]     Thanks all for the ideas.  Stan, I think the header  tank would compensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring up an  interesting thought.  My gear legs are a bit taller than most and the nose  does point up more at three point attitude, but then it starts pretty normally  when cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a while.  A neighbor  heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle and possibly flooding, other  posts mentioning too lean gives me something to work with as I can run the idle  jet both ways to see which works best, then there is the spark plug check after  it quits - dry and white, or dark and moist.

  

 The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some  names that mean a lot to me in the Kitfox world.

  

 Thanks,

 Lowell

  



  From: Stan Specht (sourdostan(at)aol.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

 



Hi Lowell-  



 I seem to remember a few years back we  were warned not to keep the aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long,  as would be the case in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would  quit flowing from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in  a sump in the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your  problem?

 



 Stan Specht

 KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still  cookin'

 Denver, CO

 -----Original  Message-----

From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

To:  kitfox-list <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013 1:23  pm

Subject: Brain Picking Engine 912



  I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase, I  had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly  after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle  input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first  several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane nearing  downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop and flew  again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the first time  and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.  Needless to say, I  took the half turn out to get the idle lower for final.  I need some wisdom  from the other guys running the 912.

  

 Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many  have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank  set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the  ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down  stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn mower  does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to re-start,  but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

  

 Lowell

   



 	  Quote: 	
		  



tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c





arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:31 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Tom, 

Thanks for the note and the link. I will follow through on this as it is a  good lead. During the test phase, I found that both carburetor springs had  broken. The engine I am using was off a pusher type airplane and the throttle  arms were weird things and I made my own - the factory springs were missing as  well so used some available locally. I think the weight of the springs provided  a harmonic vibration that quickly broke them. I then replaced them with small  diameter springs. This might be the common thread. So far, though, I have had no  full throttle issues. It is always at low speeds when the foreward movement  doesn't privide enough air flow to keep the prop spinning. the fact that I will  give it some throttle and nothing happens to prevent the final run do zero might  be spring related.  My first airplane always had the factory springs and I  put a counteracting spring behind the panel to lessen the tendency to go to full  with an inadvertent tap of the button. 

 

 

Thanks again, 

Lowell

  



  From: Tommy Walker (twalker(at)cableone.net) 

 Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:18 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

 



Look at this:  



 http://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm



 On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]      Thanks all for the ideas.  Stan, I think the    header tank would compensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring    up an interesting thought.  My gear legs are a bit taller than most and    the nose does point up more at three point attitude, but then it starts pretty    normally when cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a while.     A neighbor heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle and possibly    flooding, other posts mentioning too lean gives me something to work with as I    can run the idle jet both ways to see which works best, then there is the    spark plug check after it quits - dry and white, or dark and    moist.

    

   The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some    names that mean a lot to me in the Kitfox world.

    

   Thanks,

   Lowell

      



      From: Stan Specht (sourdostan(at)aol.com) 

   Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine    912

   



Hi Lowell-    



   I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to    keep the aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the    case in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing    from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a sump in    the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your    problem?

   



   Stan Specht

   KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'

   Denver, CO

   -----Original    Message-----

From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013    1:23 pm

Subject: Brain Picking Engine 912



      I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase,    I had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly    after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle    input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first    several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane    nearing downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop    and flew again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the    first time and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.     Needless to say, I took the half turn out to get the idle lower for    final.  I need some wisdom from the other guys running the    912.

    

   Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many    have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank    set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the    ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down    stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn    mower does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to    re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

    

   Lowell

       



 	  Quote: 	
		  



tor?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c





arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	






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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Hi Lowell

 

Good to hear you're flying again.  I was flying a Sport Star rental out of SNS that the engine would stop at touch down if the throttle was all the way back.  But it would start right back up again.  What rpm's are you setting the idle for?  I set for a minimum of about 1700.  Below that it gets too rough.  It sure makes a difference to have a low throttle setting for landing short field.  Not starting again would usually mean flooded, if the throttles are moving into the correct position. 

 

Jim Shumaker

Kitfox III 1100 hours 

912ul

      

  From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 6:30 PM

 Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

  

 

        Tom,

 Thanks for the note and the link. I will follow through on this as it is a  good lead. During the test phase, I found that both carburetor springs had  broken. The engine I am using was off a pusher type airplane and the throttle  arms were weird things and I made my own - the factory springs were missing as  well so used some available locally. I think the weight of the springs provided  a harmonic vibration that quickly broke them. I then replaced them with small  diameter springs. This might be the common thread. So far, though, I have had no  full throttle issues. It is always at low speeds when the foreward movement  doesn't privide enough air flow to keep the prop spinning. the fact that I will  give it some throttle and nothing happens to prevent the final run do zero might  be spring related.  My first airplane always had the factory springs and I  put a counteracting spring behind the panel to lessen the tendency to go to full  with an inadvertent tap of the button.

   Thanks again,

 Lowell



  



  From: Tommy Walker (twalker(at)cableone.net) 

 Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:18 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

 



Look at this:  



 http://www.ch601.org/stories/croke_crash.htm



 On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]      Thanks all for the ideas.  Stan, I think the    header tank would compensate for unporting the wing tanks, but it does bring    up an interesting thought.  My gear legs are a bit taller than most and    the nose does point up more at three point attitude, but then it starts pretty    normally when cold - or warm for that matter after sitting for a while.     A neighbor heavily into motorcycles suspected too rich at idle and possibly    flooding, other posts mentioning too lean gives me something to work with as I    can run the idle jet both ways to see which works best, then there is the    spark plug check after it quits - dry and white, or dark and    moist.

    

   The best part of all this, I might add, is seeing some    names that mean a lot to me in the Kitfox world.

    

   Thanks,

   Lowell

      



      From: Stan Specht (sourdostan(at)aol.com) 

   Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:01 PM

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brain Picking Engine    912

   



Hi Lowell-    



   I seem to remember a few years back we were warned not to    keep the aircraft in a too pitch up attitude for very long, as would be the    case in flying on final. The consequences were that fuel would quit flowing    from the tank. Subsequently, they moved the feed drain or built in a sump in    the bottom of the tank to keep the fuel flowing. Might this be your    problem?

   



   Stan Specht

   KF IV 912ul 1,937 hrs. and still cookin'

   Denver, CO

   -----Original    Message-----

From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

To: kitfox-list <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)>

Sent: Thu, Jan 17, 2013    1:23 pm

Subject: Brain Picking Engine 912



      I need some help.  During my 40 hour test phase,    I had a three or four instances where the engine quit at the flare or shortly    after touch down.  hearing the engine spin down prompted a throttle    input that did nothing.  Re-starting was impossible for the first    several minutes.  it happened again yesterday with another airplane    nearing downwind in the pattern.  I added a half turn to the idle stop    and flew again and this time, I had trouble losing altitude going around the    first time and a vigorous side slip to get down the second time.     Needless to say, I took the half turn out to get the idle lower for    final.  I need some wisdom from the other guys running the    912.

    

   Info - I lightened the throttle springs as many    have.  I have the vernier throttle with the typical Model IV bell crank    set-up and typically give it a quarter turn or so to the left to make sure the    ball is in the groove.   I have an aux fuel pump - Facet - just down    stream from the header tank and it was on in all instances.  My lawn    mower does the exact thing - when dumping the bag, it is very difficult to    re-start, but starts readily after ten minutes or on first start.

    

   Lowell

       



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[b]

_________________
Jim Shumaker

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:36 am Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

I had the same thing happen to me Lowell. I had just bought the aircraft  and my first 3 landings were all dead stick as the engine quit cold turkey on  short final. No way you will catch it with the throttle as it stops too quickly.  

  Set your idle at 1800 on the ground and it will give you a few  hundred more rpm on short final. That most likely will solve your problem. I  haven't had mine stop on me since.

  During shutdown you can pull the throttle back a little further  against the stop (below 1800) go to one mag,then the other,then off .

  In my case I have to go below 1800 on shutdown or my engine will flip  the prop in reverse for about 3 rounds. Then I have to do the valve  tappet clearance check to make sure I haven't ingested any air in the hydraulic  lifters (as the engine rotated backwards) What a pain that is ! But you won't  have that problem as I am the only one in the country that does,it  seems. 

                                               Take care !

                                                            Dick Maddux

                                                           Fox  4 

                                                            Milton,Fl 

 [quote][b]

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Lowell,  my sense is that the problem is related to fuel pump/idle mixture resulting in flooding at low rpm which is supported by the difficulty in hot restart. 

  

John Kerr 

Learning more every day about the nuances of thes 912. 

  

  

   

From: Catz631(at)aol.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:36:20 AM

Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912



 I had the same thing happen to me Lowell. I had just bought the aircraft and my first 3 landings were all dead stick as the engine quit cold turkey on short final. No way you will catch it with the throttle as it stops too quickly. 

  Set your idle at 1800 on the ground and it will give you a few hundred more rpm on short final. That most likely will solve your problem. I haven't had mine stop on me since.

  During shutdown you can pull the throttle back a little further against the stop (below 1800) go to one mag,then the other,then off .

  In my case I have to go below 1800 on shutdown or my engine will flip the prop in reverse for about 3 rounds. Then I have to do the valve tappet clearance check to make sure I haven't ingested any air in the hydraulic lifters (as the engine rotated backwards) What a pain that is ! But you won't have that problem as I am the only one in the country that does,it seems. 

                                              Take care !

                                                           Dick Maddux

                                                           Fox 4 

                                                           Milton,Fl 

[quote]

[b]

Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:55 am Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

John and Lowell, I'm having similar problems (with my 912s) and am quite sure it relates to low rpm flooding. Another manifestation is extreme difficulty getting a smooth idle. When I shut down the engine and immediately pull the carb bowls, the fuel level in the bowls is near the top instead of about one-half inch below the top as it should be. The vibration, of course, causes fuel to flow out of the carb vent vent tube outlet. I haven't tried installing the carb float valve with the stronger spring. This will be my next step. Any other thoughts?Lyle Persels



On Jan 18, 2013, at 10:30 AM, kerrjohna(at)comcast.net (kerrjohna(at)comcast.net) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lowell,  my sense is that the problem is related to fuel pump/idle mixture resulting in flooding at low rpm which is supported by the difficulty in hot restart.



 John Kerr

Learning more every day about the nuances of thes 912.



 



 

From: Catz631(at)aol.com (Catz631(at)aol.com)

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:36:20 AM

Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

I had the same thing happen to me Lowell. I had just bought the aircraft and my first 3 landings were all dead stick as the engine quit cold turkey on short final. No way you will catch it with the throttle as it stops too quickly.

 Set your idle at 1800 on the ground and it will give you a few hundred more rpm on short final. That most likely will solve your problem. I haven't had mine stop on me since.

 During shutdown you can pull the throttle back a little further against the stop (below 1800) go to one mag,then the other,then off .

 In my case I have to go below 1800 on shutdown or my engine will flip the prop in reverse for about 3 rounds. Then I have to do the valve tappet clearance check to make sure I haven't ingested any air in the hydraulic lifters (as the engine rotated backwards) What a pain that is ! But you won't have that problem as I am the only one in the country that does,it seems. 

                                             Take care !

                                                          Dick Maddux

                                                          Fox 4

                                                          Milton,Fl 

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 [quote][b]

Vic Baker

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Carson City, Nevada

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

As long as we're at it,  what do you  do about kickback while trying to start?   Especially in the  winter.  I've tried all sorts of start procedures and have installed the  "soft start" module.  The module seemed to help but the problem is still  there.  Any thoughts guys?

 Vic

  

 KF7 912ULS Warp

 Carson City, Nv

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Vic Baker
Series 7
Carson City, Nevada

Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Install a Continual or Lycoming. 

  From: Vic Baker (vr_baker(at)nvbell.net) 

 [quote]   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 12:26    PM

   Subject: Re: Brain Picking    Engine 912

   As long as we're at it,  what do    you do about kickback while trying to start?   Especially in the    winter.  I've tried all sorts of start procedures and have installed the    "soft start" module.  The module seemed to help but the problem is still    there.  Any thoughts guys?

   Vic

   KF7 912ULS Warp

   Carson City, Nv

   [quote]     ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

Glenn,

 A local guy has a technique that has helped him over the  years.  I don't know if you have tried it.  This is from Clint  Bazzill.  He cranks with the ignition off for several seconds.  Then  he lets it sit for several more seconds.  Then ignition on and crank to  start.  I do this on my 80 hp engine and it seems to help for an easier  start.  My primary reason for doing it is to watch the oil pressure rise  before actual engine start.  I have only witnessed the shaking on the 100  hp engine so have no first hand experience with them.

 Lowell

  



  From: Glenn Horne (glennflys(at)verizon.net) 

 Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:36 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Brain Picking Engine 912

 



 Install a Continual or Lycoming. 

  From: Vic Baker (vr_baker(at)nvbell.net) 

 [quote]   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 12:26    PM

   Subject: Re: Brain Picking    Engine 912

   



   As long as we're at it,  what do    you do about kickback while trying to start?   Especially in the    winter.  I've tried all sorts of start procedures and have installed the    "soft start" module.  The module seemed to help but the problem is still    there.  Any thoughts guys?

   Vic

    

   KF7 912ULS Warp

   Carson City, Nv

   [quote]     ---

Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:29 pm Post subject: Brain Picking Engine 912

They are the only two engines to set  behind.

 GLENN HORNE

Kitfox Model II

 [quote]   ---

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