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IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

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crabandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:21 pm Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

Rv7 aircraft with a 2 screen G3X-single electronic ignition-Audio panel-GTN650-transponder-TruTrak Gemini-G3X auto pilot.



DiagramZ-12 if the master relay fails then the aux alt doesn't charge the system? Can the B lead from the aux alt connect at the + side of the master relay to charge the system and supply aux alt power to batt bus and e-bus?



Diagram Z-11 with a IBBS battery backup for G3X versus Z-12?



Price wise it's not much more for the single batt dual alt, how to supply uninterrupted power to the G3X if a electrical system failure occurs without IBBS backup battery?  

Sent from my iPhone

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:06 am Post subject: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been disconnected.  Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators behave this way.  Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will continue to operate normally.  The pilot might not realize the master contactor has failed until the next attempt to start the engine.

  Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for an extended time period after the main alternator fails.  For many pilots, a second  alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity.  The aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing.

  An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit.

  In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.  A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet this requirement.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:07 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

At 08:19 PM 2/12/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Rv7 aircraft with a 2 screen G3X-single electronic ignition-Audio 

panel-GTN650-transponder-TruTrak Gemini-G3X auto pilot.



DiagramZ-12 if the master relay fails then the aux alt doesn't 

charge the system?


	


  Correct. Z-12 was crafted for adding aux alternator

  to airplanes already configured with a legacy architecture.

  This is how the SD-20 has been ADDED to hundreds of

  type certificated aircraft.



 	  Quote: 	
		    Can the B lead from the aux alt connect at the + side of the 

 master relay to charge the system and supply aux alt power to batt 

 bus and e-bus?



Diagram Z-11 with a IBBS battery backup for G3X versus Z-12?



Price wise it's not much more for the single batt dual alt, how to 

supply uninterrupted power to the G3X if a electrical system failure 

occurs without IBBS backup battery?


	


   Have you already purchased an SD-20? This alternator

   is way too big as standby for 99% of OBAM aircaft.

   Figure Z-13/8 was crafted as a two-layer system

   that is lighter, less expensive and addresses your

   concerns.

   Bob . . .

crabandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:58 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

Thanks for the replies! I haven't purchased either yet but am trying to decide between the Z diagram with the SD8 dynamo and using an avionics buss with a relay and a IBBS battery backup. 

Still trying to figure out how to wire the G3X system to the Zdiagram to allow uninterrupted power. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 13, 2013, at 9:07 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 08:19 PM 2/12/2013, you wrote:

> 

> 

> Rv7 aircraft with a 2 screen G3X-single electronic ignition-Audio panel-GTN650-transponder-TruTrak Gemini-G3X auto pilot.

> 

> DiagramZ-12 if the master relay fails then the aux alt doesn't charge the system?

 Correct. Z-12 was crafted for adding aux alternator

 to airplanes already configured with a legacy architecture.

 This is how the SD-20 has been ADDED to hundreds of

 type certificated aircraft.

> Can the B lead from the aux alt connect at the + side of the master relay to charge the system and supply aux alt power to batt bus and e-bus?

> 

> Diagram Z-11 with a IBBS battery backup for G3X versus Z-12?

> 

> Price wise it's not much more for the single batt dual alt, how to supply uninterrupted power to the G3X if a electrical system failure occurs without IBBS backup battery?

  Have you already purchased an SD-20? This alternator

  is way too big as standby for 99% of OBAM aircaft.

  Figure Z-13/8 was crafted as a two-layer system

  that is lighter, less expensive and addresses your

  concerns.

  Bob . . .

crabandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:07 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

I think I need a new addition of the "connection," referencing Z13/8 can provide uninterrupted power to G3x by operating with the alt ebus feed on and G3x wired to ebus. Essentially he ebus would always run from the Batt side of the master relay through the alt ebus switch making it more of an always on ebus switch. I'm mostly thinking out loud to try and understand it better. Thoughts and advice appreciated!

Thanks 

Andy

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 13, 2013, at 9:07 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 08:19 PM 2/12/2013, you wrote:

> 

> 

> Rv7 aircraft with a 2 screen G3X-single electronic ignition-Audio panel-GTN650-transponder-TruTrak Gemini-G3X auto pilot.

> 

> DiagramZ-12 if the master relay fails then the aux alt doesn't charge the system?

 Correct. Z-12 was crafted for adding aux alternator

 to airplanes already configured with a legacy architecture.

 This is how the SD-20 has been ADDED to hundreds of

 type certificated aircraft.

> Can the B lead from the aux alt connect at the + side of the master relay to charge the system and supply aux alt power to batt bus and e-bus?

> 

> Diagram Z-11 with a IBBS battery backup for G3X versus Z-12?

> 

> Price wise it's not much more for the single batt dual alt, how to supply uninterrupted power to the G3X if a electrical system failure occurs without IBBS backup battery?

  Have you already purchased an SD-20? This alternator

  is way too big as standby for 99% of OBAM aircaft.

  Figure Z-13/8 was crafted as a two-layer system

  that is lighter, less expensive and addresses your

  concerns.

  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:16 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

At 10:06 AM 2/13/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I think I need a new addition of the "connection," referencing Z13/8 

can provide uninterrupted power to G3x by operating with the alt 

ebus feed on and G3x wired to ebus. Essentially he ebus would always 

run from the Batt side of the master relay through the alt ebus 

switch making it more of an always on ebus switch. I'm mostly 

thinking out loud to try and understand it better. Thoughts and 

advice appreciated!

Thanks

Andy


	


All the latest updates are on the website at:



http://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7



   Bob . . .

bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:00 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

So here is my question, probably answered before on this forum....



Day VFR with an internally regulated alternator, electronic ignition auto engine, no EFIS, fuel pump or other essential electrical services except COMM.

  With a dedicated  batt buss for the ignition, what other precautions / additions should I consider?

Best...

Bob Verwey A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW Chevy Safari ZU-AJF

 



On Wednesday, 13 February 2013, user9253  wrote:

 [quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

  

 Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been disconnected.  Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators behave this way.  Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will continue to operate normally.  The pilot might not realize the master contactor has failed until the next attempt to start the engine.

      Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for an extended time period after the main alternator fails.  For many pilots, a second  alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity.  The aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing.

      An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit.

   In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.  A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet this requirement.

    Joe

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394198#394198

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 [b]

jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:19 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

Hey there Bob,

 

I think that for a battery dependant engine dual battery architechture with LV warning and engine battery disconnect is essential.  The idea that you need just one component to fail to force a landing is not comfortable.  It may be that you are very good at checking your battery condition every year, but then you forget to properly tighten the terminal post…  or something similar.  I use dual batteries and alternate paths…

 

Jay

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Verwey

Sent: 14 February 2013 11:00 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?



 

So here is my question, probably answered before on this forum....

 



Day VFR with an internally regulated alternator, electronic ignition auto engine, no EFIS, fuel pump or other essential electrical services except COMM.



With a dedicated  batt buss for the ignition, what other precautions / additions should I consider?



 



Best...



Bob Verwey

A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW

Chevy Safari ZU-AJF



 



On Wednesday, 13 February 2013, user9253 wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>



Many alternators will continue to operate after the battery has been disconnected.  Testing on the ground will determine if your alternators behave this way.  Chances are that the pilot will be unaware of a master contactor failure, because the alternator and electrical loads will continue to operate normally.  The pilot might not realize the master contactor has failed until the next attempt to start the engine.

  Dual alternators are desirable for those who wish to continue flying for an extended time period after the main alternator fails.  For many pilots, a second  alternator is unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity.  The aircraft battery will supply electrical power until landing.

  An avionics backup battery is not required because the aircraft battery provides backup power through the E-Bus circuit.

  In the event of a fire or an imminent crash, the pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.  A long wire from the battery to the aux alternator does not meet this requirement.

Joe



--------

Joe Gores





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394198#394198



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-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

===========

http://forums.matronics.com

===========

le, List Admin.

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========



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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: Re: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

An electrically dependent engine is not necessarily a battery dependent engine.  Viking Aircraft has determined that their engines will continue to run with the battery disconnected, powered by the alternator.

  If there are dual electronic ignitions, one can be connected to the battery bus and the other connected to the main bus.

  A small "brownout" battery can be connected to an EFIS to prevent rebooting from voltage sag during engine cranking.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:30 am Post subject: IBBS backup battery vs backup alt?

Fair enough; the engine may have some other built in safeguard, or an

alternator especially designed for batteryless operation, and you may then

take that into account.  However, and here I am not completely sure, but I

think that most alternators will only self power above a certain speed; drop

below that speed and the alternator cannot 'self-boot', unless it is a

permanent magnet type.



Generally, all 4 stroke gasoline auto engines, will not be able to run when

the battery is disconnected.  You may have a battery bus and a main bus, but

what if the battery terminal post corrodes, or breaks, or perhaps the

connecting bolt and nut on the terminal works loose?  There go both your

battery bus and your main bus...



Jay



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