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The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage

 
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cpayne(at)joimail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage Reply with quote

Interesting procedure, but I suspect that any pump pressure bleeds off rather quickly. A better method is to position #1 cylinder to TDC. That way, all of the pistons in the lower half are pulled "down". Much less drainage. One way to set the prop to that position is to look through a gearbox window...IF you have an M-14P Series II engine with an access panel that can be replaced with a window.

If you have a Huosai or an M-14P Series I engine and are going to park the airplane for more than a week, I suggest pulling the front plug out of #1 and finding TDC that way. It matters not whether it is on the compression stroke or power stroke.

Craig Payne


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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage Reply with quote

Craig,

I have seen the M-14 window deal a few times in the past, and it has always made me slightly curious. Here's what I mean and maybe you can enlighten me.

The way oil gets into the exhaust stacks, and thus drains out onto the ground, or into the bucket, or .. whatever ... is because it gets into the cylinder(s) and then comes out an open exhaust valve. Agreed?

OK, so if we position the #1 cylinder to TDC making sure "of the pistons in the lower half are pulled "down", I am assuming the goal here is to try and make sure the lower cylinders have their exhaust valves closed, so that the oil can't leak out. Or is something else going on that I am not aware of?

Assuming it has to do with keeping the exhaust valves closed, then one has to ask how the oil got into the cylinders to begin with?

The oil that gets into the cylinders HAS to come from the crankcase right?

Typically, the sump fills up first and eventually the oil will backflow past the piston rings and down into the lower cylinders.

A problem (or "feature" if you will) of stock M-14 piston rings is that they expand (a lot) with heat. Thus the clearances have to be set loose when you install them. This aggravates the problem with oil bleeding past the rings and into the cylinders. American made pistons and rings helps fix this problem, but to continue.......

Another well known problem besides oil leaking out all over the tarmac is ... oil NOT leaking out all over the tarmac and instead becoming trapped within the cylinders because the valves are all closed. This sets up the owner for the infamous "Hydraulic Lock" problem. Somehow, oil in the cylinders has to be let out before we start pushing a piston towards TDC, or else we are looking at bending a rod. Pull the spark plugs, drain it, etc.

So OK! If we're in agreement up to this point, my question is: "How exactly does putting the #1 cylinder to TDC *PREVENT* oil from getting past the rings and into the cylinders?"

My thought is that it does not. And what really ends up happening by doing this procedure is that drainage through the exhaust will indeed probably be greatly reduced, but at the same time, the chance for hydraulic lock is greatly increased. Which means of course, you have to pull the spark plugs to be sure. Which means of course, all that oil you saved from draining out the exhaust stacks, now drains out the spark plug holes.

What am I missing here?

Mark

p.s. Yes Doc, the hose on the sump drain is a good idea. Some folks have connected that hose you are talking about to a built in electric pump (mounted on the firewall) which pumps the sump oil back into the main oil tank. Periodic use of this method during longer down times prevents the oil from ever reaching the point where it can flow into the lower cylinders. Pretty complicated method, which means modifying the sump drain, which means increasing the chance for mechanical failure of the sump drain, which means the engine runs out of oil in flight. Ugh. If the sump oil is drained with a hose (Doc's email) into a clean container, it can be poured right back into the main oil tank I would think.

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage Reply with quote

Mark," drain it into a clean container and put the ok back into the tank" is exactly what I do
Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 13, 2013, at 4:17 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

[quote]

Craig,

I have seen the M-14 window deal a few times in the past, and it has always made me slightly curious. Here's what I mean and maybe you can enlighten me.

The way oil gets into the exhaust stacks, and thus drains out onto the ground, or into the bucket, or .. whatever ... is because it gets into the cylinder(s) and then comes out an open exhaust valve. Agreed?

OK, so if we position the #1 cylinder to TDC making sure "of the pistons in the lower half are pulled "down", I am assuming the goal here is to try and make sure the lower cylinders have their exhaust valves closed, so that the oil can't leak out. Or is something else going on that I am not aware of?

Assuming it has to do with keeping the exhaust valves closed, then one has to ask how the oil got into the cylinders to begin with?

The oil that gets into the cylinders HAS to come from the crankcase right?

Typically, the sump fills up first and eventually the oil will backflow past the piston rings and down into the lower cylinders.

A problem (or "feature" if you will) of stock M-14 piston rings is that they expand (a lot) with heat. Thus the clearances have to be set loose when you install them. This aggravates the problem with oil bleeding past the rings and into the cylinders. American made pistons and rings helps fix this problem, but to continue.......

Another well known problem besides oil leaking out all over the tarmac is ... oil NOT leaking out all over the tarmac and instead becoming trapped within the cylinders because the valves are all closed. This sets up the owner for the infamous "Hydraulic Lock" problem. Somehow, oil in the cylinders has to be let out before we start pushing a piston towards TDC, or else we are looking at bending a rod. Pull the spark plugs, drain it, etc.

So OK! If we're in agreement up to this point, my question is: "How exactly does putting the #1 cylinder to TDC *PREVENT* oil from getting past the rings and into the cylinders?"

My thought is that it does not. And what really ends up happening by doing this procedure is that drainage through the exhaust will indeed probably be greatly reduced, but at the same time, the chance for hydraulic lock is greatly increased. Which means of course, you have to pull the spark plugs to be sure. Which means of course, all that oil you saved from draining out the exhaust stacks, now drains out the spark plug holes.

What am I missing here?

Mark

p.s. Yes Doc, the hose on the sump drain is a good idea. Some folks have connected that hose you are talking about to a built in electric pump (mounted on the firewall) which pumps the sump oil back into the main oil tank. Periodic use of this method during longer down times prevents the oil from ever reaching the point where it can flow into the lower cylinders. Pretty complicated method, which means modifying the sump drain, which means increasing the chance for mechanical failure of the sump drain, which means the engine runs out of oil in flight. Ugh. If the sump oil is drained with a hose (Doc's email) into a clean container, it can be poured right back into the main oil tank I would think.



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taylor527(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage Reply with quote

I have used this procedure for about 6 months,a third to a half turn back.I
don't know why it works but at 5 dollars a quart who cares.
Pete taylor

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage Reply with quote

Roger that. Makes sense to me.

Mark
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