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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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Hmmm .... should be easy enough to do a 'before' and 'after' comparison.
Thanks!
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PS
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:06 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil
Drainage
Warning, this procedure is for informational purposes only and may damage
your engine, impregnate your dog make you socially unacceptable.
This works for me, or maybe I am a little goofy but here goes....
I have owned 6 round engined aircraft, 5 Yaks and 1 CJ. I rarely have
issues with oil draining through my intake drain system like others. One
evening after studying the oil system I realized the positive displacement
geared oil pump pressurizes the check valve in the oil pump which may keep
it from sealing well. I always back my prop up(turn in reverse) to
horizontal upon exiting the cockpit. I usually move it at most a few inches.
I feel, this relieves the pressure on the check valve in the oil pump
letting the check valve seal. I normally lose very little oil, usually a
couple ounces in weeks.
This is for information purposes and may be total BS.... but it works for
me.
I am ready for a good flaming.... I posted this at the request of a Yak
owner who I taught my procedure.
Good Luck and no warranties expressed or implied.
Phil
--------
PS
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:19 pm Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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I'm sure going to try it myself! Turning the oil pump backwards with an
impact on a check valve is something I can grasp.
Mark
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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Time to put in my two cents worth. Years ago, when I installed the M14-P. in my CJ, I put in Bill Blackwell's oil tank shutoff system. After almost 2000 hours, it is still working fine and quite frankly, has kept gallons and gallons of oil off my hangar floor.
However, I've seen the viewing glass on several Russian acro guys airplanes, which they swore works the same way, keeping oil off the ground and reduce possible hydraulic locks. Couple of engine hours ago I installed one of Craig Payne's kits on my engine. It took a couple of hours to do but 90% of that was waiting for paint to dry. It was certainly a lot cheaper then, and easier than installing a Blackwell system. Why did I install it? I like neat simple ideas.
Why do I think it works? When the #1 cylinder piston is at top dead center, pistons #5 and #6 are at the very bottom end of their stroke. This puts the scraper ring (on the bottom of the piston) very close to the end of the cylinder bore. This in essence leaves a very, or a much smaller area on the bottom of #5 and #6 for oil to collect in and build up because of gravity. All fluids have "head pressure". The deeper or higher a column of fluid, the higher the head pressure. By the piston being at the bottom of its stroke, near the bottom of the cylinder bore, there is less area for the oil to "stand in" with resulting lower head pressure that could push past the scraper rings.
One of the things I used to do, (and actually still do out of habit), is what I call "rock the prop". Years ago, I was told that by moving the propeller back and forth 10 or 15° and then leaving it in the middle of the arc, I was in essence, causing the causing the pistons to align themselves more evenly with the cylinder bore and thus causing piston rings to sit better. Then with properly seated piston rings, they would act more like a seal against oil that eventually dripped down and tried to flow past the piston into the top of the cylinder. This could also be unloading the pressure in the oil pump.
One thing I've noticed about the M-14 particularly with the tail draggers (Yak 50, 52 TD, TW,). When pulling through, prior to starting, they would dump oil out the exhaust in greater volume than that I ever saw on a nose wheeled M-14p. Could that have something to do because the engine is tilted backwards? If so, what are the dynamics?
However, no matter what system or procedure one uses, you'd be a fool not to pull your engine through before starting. But for God sake, make sure the mags are off.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
PS did you get your significant other flowers today? No? God help you there too.
In a message dated 2/14/2013 6:20:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:
[quote][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
I'm sure going to try it myself! Turning the oil pump backwards with an
impact on a check valve is something I can grasp.
Mark
--
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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Not the check valve I was thinking about. The shear pin on the compressor driveshaft coupling was what Came to my mind.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 14, 2013, at 5:17 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
I'm sure going to try it myself! Turning the oil pump backwards with an
impact on a check valve is something I can grasp.
Mark
--
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:49 pm Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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Pappy,
With the engine tilted back in the tail draggers, the Sump effectively has approximately a third less volume. Like a tipped glass with water flowing in, the lower lip overflows sooner. Instead of the crankcase port draining the case when the sump has filled to capacity from sitting for a week or so, the excess drains from the sump back into the crankcase. It then drains down the cylinder walls of the dependent cylinders.
In an attempt to lessen that angle I place a jack under the tail tie down/ jack point and raise the tail up. It does decrease the amount of oil from the stacks and intake drain. I also drain the sump into a clean container when she is going to sit for a week. I then pour the oil that drained from the sump back into the tank before I go fly.
I generally see 2 to sometimes 3 liters collected in the fuel can over a couple of weeks. This coming from a 90% new engine with 11 hours on it. This is a tight engine incidentally.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 14, 2013, at 9:00 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Time to put in my two cents worth. Years ago, when I installed the M14-P. in my CJ, I put in Bill Blackwell's oil tank shutoff system. After almost 2000 hours, it is still working fine and quite frankly, has kept gallons and gallons of oil off my hangar floor.
However, I've seen the viewing glass on several Russian acro guys airplanes, which they swore works the same way, keeping oil off the ground and reduce possible hydraulic locks. Couple of engine hours ago I installed one of Craig Payne's kits on my engine. It took a couple of hours to do but 90% of that was waiting for paint to dry. It was certainly a lot cheaper then, and easier than installing a Blackwell system. Why did I install it? I like neat simple ideas.
Why do I think it works? When the #1 cylinder piston is at top dead center, pistons #5 and #6 are at the very bottom end of their stroke. This puts the scraper ring (on the bottom of the piston) very close to the end of the cylinder bore. This in essence leaves a very, or a much smaller area on the bottom of #5 and #6 for oil to collect in and build up because of gravity. All fluids have "head pressure". The deeper or higher a column of fluid, the higher the head pressure. By the piston being at the bottom of its stroke, near the bottom of the cylinder bore, there is less area for the oil to "stand in" with resulting lower head pressure that could push past the scraper rings.
One of the things I used to do, (and actually still do out of habit), is what I call "rock the prop". Years ago, I was told that by moving the propeller back and forth 10 or 15° and then leaving it in the middle of the arc, I was in essence, causing the causing the pistons to align themselves more evenly with the cylinder bore and thus causing piston rings to sit better. Then with properly seated piston rings, they would act more like a seal against oil that eventually dripped down and tried to flow past the piston into the top of the cylinder. This could also be unloading the pressure in the oil pump.
One thing I've noticed about the M-14 particularly with the tail draggers (Yak 50, 52 TD, TW,). When pulling through, prior to starting, they would dump oil out the exhaust in greater volume than that I ever saw on a nose wheeled M-14p. Could that have something to do because the engine is tilted backwards? If so, what are the dynamics?
However, no matter what system or procedure one uses, you'd be a fool not to pull your engine through before starting. But for God sake, make sure the mags are off.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
PS did you get your significant other flowers today? No? God help you there too.
In a message dated 2/14/2013 6:20:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) writes:
[quote][img]cid:(null)[/img][img]cid:(null)[/img]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
I'm sure going to try it myself! Turning the oil pump backwards with an
impact on a check valve is something I can grasp.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:24 am Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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See? Now this kind of explanation makes sense to me. I'm out of the running for the window deal anyway, since I have a series one engine, but never-the-less, I've seen it installed on some engines that are pretty old, and have had folks claim it works.
Pappy, I understand your explanation, thanks for taking the time to write it.
Mark
--
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:20 am Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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Pappy;
Your explanation re reduced oil flow with the #1 piston at TDC makes a whole lot of sense and I would like to echo Mark’s comments. Now if we could just find a way to position that without a window to look through or pulling spark plugs, etc.!!!!!!!!!!!!
Walt
From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:00 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drainage
Time to put in my two cents worth. Years ago, when I installed the M14-P. in my CJ, I put in Bill Blackwell's oil tank shutoff system. After almost 2000 hours, it is still working fine and quite frankly, has kept gallons and gallons of oil off my hangar floor.
However, I've seen the viewing glass on several Russian acro guys airplanes, which they swore works the same way, keeping oil off the ground and reduce possible hydraulic locks. Couple of engine hours ago I installed one of Craig Payne's kits on my engine. It took a couple of hours to do but 90% of that was waiting for paint to dry. It was certainly a lot cheaper then, and easier than installing a Blackwell system. Why did I install it? I like neat simple ideas.
Why do I think it works? When the #1 cylinder piston is at top dead center, pistons #5 and #6 are at the very bottom end of their stroke. This puts the scraper ring (on the bottom of the piston) very close to the end of the cylinder bore. This in essence leaves a very, or a much smaller area on the bottom of #5 and #6 for oil to collect in and build up because of gravity. All fluids have "head pressure". The deeper or higher a column of fluid, the higher the head pressure. By the piston being at the bottom of its stroke, near the bottom of the cylinder bore, there is less area for the oil to "stand in" with resulting lower head pressure that could push past the scraper rings.
One of the things I used to do, (and actually still do out of habit), is what I call "rock the prop". Years ago, I was told that by moving the propeller back and forth 10 or 15° and then leaving it in the middle of the arc, I was in essence, causing the causing the pistons to align themselves more evenly with the cylinder bore and thus causing piston rings to sit better. Then with properly seated piston rings, they would act more like a seal against oil that eventually dripped down and tried to flow past the piston into the top of the cylinder. This could also be unloading the pressure in the oil pump.
One thing I've noticed about the M-14 particularly with the tail draggers (Yak 50, 52 TD, TW,). When pulling through, prior to starting, they would dump oil out the exhaust in greater volume than that I ever saw on a nose wheeled M-14p. Could that have something to do because the engine is tilted backwards? If so, what are the dynamics?
However, no matter what system or procedure one uses, you'd be a fool not to pull your engine through before starting. But for God sake, make sure the mags are off.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
PS did you get your significant other flowers today? No? God help you there too.
In a message dated 2/14/2013 6:20:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:
[quote][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
I'm sure going to try it myself! Turning the oil pump backwards with an
impact on a check valve is something I can grasp.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: The Phil Procedure or How I Reduced My Intake Oil Drain |
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How about messing with the air start system in a way so that it would cause rotation to stop with #1 piston at TDC?
Tricky, but it could be done.
Mark
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