Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hello All.

I am new to flying a Europa and don,t know what to look for in picking up damage from a Heavy Landing, I have seen some quite hard landing by some Europa,s.

So besides the obvious, Undercarriage missing, or all shattered where the main gear enters the fuselage, Is there any small tell tell features that will identify a heavy landing on the Tri Gears main gear.

Also if you find one of these features how do you check it out , that it is, or is not due to a heavy landing.

Many thanks 

Alan

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:17 pm Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hi Alan,

I think you are asking where to look for damage on TRI Gear Europas

following heavy landing/s?

1. MAIN GEAR.  Look for any disruption/delamination of layups within the

fuselage in the areas of the undercarriage sockets (ie in the area just

behind the fuel tank usually covered with some form of decking material for

baggage). If there is damage here it will need repairing before further

flight. The most likely damage on main gear is a bent leg. Fortunately in a

well built aircraft the leg will bend before doing structural fuselage

damage as above. Usually obvious if you park you're a/c on flat level hard

surface and then view it from front or rear. Since it is probable that one

leg will be more or less bent than the other a lopsided stance of your

aircraft will be a big clue.

With the weight OFF the wheels check that no rotation of the leg is

possible. Ie where the leg enters the fuselage it is not possible to rotate

it at all.  If you can, it could be due to damage in the area at the top of

the U/C sockets. There is a shear bolt which could shear or damage the

alligment hole at the top of the socket.

2 NOSE GEAR   The first thing that usually bends is the spindle of the Nose

wheel yolk. Ie the shaft that rotates within the Nose leg itself when the

nose wheel steers left or right.  To check this remove the fairing that

covers the nose wheel steering shimmy damper adjusting nut, then view from

the side and note any non parallel gap in the area of the shimmy damper

friction pad.

The nose leg itself can bend. Remove the leg fairing from the nose leg and

check for straightness using a straight edge.  SHOULD BE STRAIGHT.



Beyond the above a thorough check all round the aircraft is essential.

Engine bearers can get bent and distorted.  Fuselage structural damage can

occur.  IT ALL DEPENDS HOW HEAVY WAS THE LANDING???



These are just a few tips but are not exhaustive.  Look look and look again.



Pete Jeffers   Europa Club LAA rep 



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Many thanks Peter.

The reason for my question is i have just recently purchased a Europa.

At the time of purchase due to traffic i only had very short time to look at the aircraft, being a novice i did not know all the places to check up on,  it was a bit of a rush and i should have spent more time.

But from what i did examine i could see it was a good build so accepted all was was well, ( and it may be)

However when i received the aircraft i spent 3 days polishing it all over,

and noted  the condition was all neat and tidy so felt i had done well.

I have been practising landings on a 450 meter strip, from what i am use to it very short,

I would say at this point, i don,t think any of my landings where really heavy.

But looking round the aircraft the other day ,the sun caught a slight ripple "in the fibre glass about 3 to 4 inches forward of the Port leg where it enters the fuselage", on close examination all the sealant round the leg is intact, no visible damage to the leg, or in the area behind the leg.

This small shallow inward curved ripple or dent, if press with your finger 

will move in and out, so assuming the skin in this area is not as thick as say around the cockpit area, so it dos ,nt seem to be a structured area.

Now being 66 i tended to dough myself a little, has it been there all the time, did not notice it before, But once you have found a mark your eye always goes back and picks it up.

Regards

Alan

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hi Alan,

Before answering your reviewed query I will just need to have a look at a

Europa which is close by, to see exactly what is located exactly where you

mention.  A photo from you may help me if you could manage that.  From your

description it could just be a discontinuity of the profile where the leg

socket was fixed inplace. However it may not be that so would need

investigating.



Pete



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hello Peter

I had another look today, pushed and pull the wheel strut, measured the tips,all OK, so think it may have been like it for some time, maybe the way it was made , or maybe it been pushed in by jacking the aircraft up, had a bird strike the other day, a crow hit during flare-out missed the prop but head a thud on that side,looked all over aircraft at the time could not find any damage but maybe this caused the dent, unusual place to hit, i will post a couple of photo,s next time so you can have a look.

Regards

Alan 











 , unusual place but maybe this caused then dent.

However i will post a photo next time so you can have a look.

All the best.

Alan

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Thanks Alan,

I will look forward to seeing the pics.



Pete



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hello Peter.

Sorry for taking so long, lost the camera/computer cable, but here are the pictures.

The hollow is about 4" in front of the main gear leg, No cracks or surface damage in the hollow. And no damage in the area all looks symmetrical.

The trouble is i can,t remember if it was there before.!!

I did have a bird strike, a Crow came up from underneath on that side, i heard a thud and thought it have been swept round and hit the tail plane on the other side,? i did not look under the aircraft at the time.

But just can,t remember if the hollow was there when i first gave the aircraft a polish.

Hope the photo,s are good enough.The sealant looks a mess in the photo but its all intact. My finger will give you some scale of size.

Alan

CIMG0848.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

714.31 KB

Viewed:

13066 Time(s)

CIMG0849.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

679.17 KB

Viewed:

13066 Time(s)

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Peter.

Forgot to say the aircraft is a Mono to Tri Gear Conversion.

Alan

stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Alan

 

Why dont you get your LAA Inspector to have a look at the ripple to be on the safe side, its really difficult to see and indeed to give any opinions from a distance is like asking your doctor to diagnose a broken leg without X Rays!.

 

You could also call Neil France whom I believe did the last LAA annual Inspection on your aircraft, if there was any structural issues oin the aircraft it simply would not have passed. Email me if you want a contact number?

rgds

David

 

(The Other One)



 

Sent to you from David  Joyce

www.eastmidsspas.com



      

  From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 31 July 2012, 1:16

 Subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hello Peter.

Sorry for taking so long, lost the camera/computer cable, but here are the pictures.

The hollow is about 4" in front of the main gear leg, No cracks or surface damage in the hollow. And no damage in the area all looks symmetrical.

The trouble is i can,t remember if it was there before.!!

I did have a bird strike, a Crow came up from underneath on that side, i heard a thud and thought it have been swept round and hit the tail plane on the other side,? i did not look under the aircraft at the time.

But just can,t remember if the hollow was there when i first gave the aircraft a polish.

Hope the photo,s are good enough.The sealant looks a mess in the photo but its all intact. My finger will give you some scale of size.

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379646#379646





Attachments: 



http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0848_124.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/========================http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================



 

  

  

 [quote][b]

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hi Alan,

Since the dent, as shown in your photo, could just have resulted from a

movement of the leg socket, I personally would want to very carefully

inspect the leg socket securing structure. 

My suggestion is that you need to get a Europa experienced inspector to

check it out for you. I believe David Lloyd at Shobdon used to look after

your aircraft so in the first instance I would talk to him.



Pete 



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Thanks Peter.

I have raised the aircraft on a air bag and checked for movement all was OK.

However I  want to get a Europa Inspector to check all the aircraft out,and go over it with me, which will be very useful. So will get onto the LAA for one in my area. i will also speak to David.

Many thanks Alan

phillik747

Joined: 04 Apr 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Birminham, AL USA

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

After reading this post I went to my Europa, which is in the middle of a tri-gear conversion, and took some pictures of the belly in the area shown in your photos and was a little surprised.  I used a light, put in the hole for the spar, and shined it down and back towards the landing gear layups.  What I noticed is there is an 1/4 of an area that isn't as reinforced as the rest of the 10" circle around the LG hole.  



This may be the reason for the buckle/dent in the skin. I also have not put the bottom layup on the belly yet but noticed that the skin can dent inwards with little pressure.  



http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=100701&g2_serialNumber=2



http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=100704&g2_serialNumber=2

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hello Phil.

Many thanks for taking the trouble to look,

Heavy landing does not sound good as i don,t think i have made one,maybe i should have just labeled it Dent, although its really a little crease.

However i am reasonable satisfied that all is well as i have made a number of landings now.

I have been keeping an eye on it and can see nothing of concern, I am not a builder but maybe one day i will put a piece of bd glass on the inside to push it out. Yes it is thin in that area , Bird hit ?? , i think the Crow hit the Starboard Tail Stab, which seem to be my bone of contention, and will be get back to the forum for more discussion and feed back with Bud and all i hope.

All the best Alan

phillik747

Joined: 04 Apr 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Birminham, AL USA

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Yeah I after seeing this I might put an extra layer of bd on the bottom.  



Kyle

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hi Alan,



yesterday I had a thorough inspection on my Trigear XS and guess what - I discovered the same dent at exactly the same place as on your Europa. I am also not aware of the dent being there before and I am as well sure not to have made a hard landing. Then I remembered the topic on the forum a while ago.



You already concluded, that all is well with your aircraft but I thought that might be of interest for you or anybody else.



Regards

Roland



PH-ZTI

XS Trigear 914

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hi Roland,

 Do you have a picture of this?

 Many thanks

 Michel 

 F-PFGT 145



  

    

  

   From: Roland (schmidtroland(at)web.de)

 Date: 2013-02-14 07:29

 To: europa-list (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri  Gear.

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>

  

 Hi Alan,

  

 yesterday I had a thorough inspection on my Trigear XS and guess what - I discovered the same dent at exactly the same place as on your Europa. I am also not aware of the dent being there before and I am as well sure not to have made a hard landing. Then I remembered the topic on the forum a while ago.

  

 You already concluded, that all is well with your aircraft but I thought that might be of interest for you or anybody else.

  

 Regards

 Roland

  

 PH-ZTI

 XS Trigear 914

  

  

  

  

 Read this topic online here:

  

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394240#394240

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 ======================================

 sp;The Europa-List Email Forum -

 avigator to browse

 bsp;List Un/Subscription,

 bsp;Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 ?Europa-List

 ======================================

 p;    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 ;via the Web Forums!

 ======================================

 p;  - List Contribution Web Site -

 ;support!

 p;                   -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ion

 ======================================

  

  

  



   [quote][b]

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Here it comes....

feb. 005.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

1.2 MB

Viewed:

12422 Time(s)

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Hello Roland.

Well that,s interesting,, Having done 10000 hours instructing i had a reasonable idea of what a heavy landing was like, even then only the odd one may have slipped through where you really felt it.

My aeroplane has had two previous owner so i don,t know what sort of life it had before me, and i did not know what you would call a heavy landing in a Home built aeroplane at that time, But now having seen some Europa landings i can say i never have made a bad landing,

Don,t know if its true but SOME SAY the engine mounts will go before the undercarriage goes. Yes i love Top Gear. Clarkson for Prime Minster .

And the same as you have polished the plane all over i did not see it then, but i guess it could have been there but i don,t think so.

Since discovering it i have made many more landing without incident but the crease is still there. My plane is a Mono /Tri Conversion. 

Just out of interest don,t ask me why, I find Flapless landings are much better for the plane on rough bumpy runways, need the runway lenght, and a airfield you know,   well it works for me, give it a try and let me know.

Fitting clamps at the moment so the tailplane in bits.

Regards

Alan

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Good morning Alan,



my plane also had two previous owners and kit started as a Mono and was converted to a Trigear with a Rotax 914 (btw I'm also investigating on that kick back problem at low temperatures now but since I already needed a new engine there probably is some set up yet to be done), so very similar to yours in this regard. It is a complete XS although the build number is quite low. I learned, that the reference for that number is the shipping of the first stage of the kit (tailplane as far as I recall it) and maybe the builder didn't progress with it as planned (like so many others?).  



Despite a negative overboost experience last year I still have that "Europa grin" and today I cannot imagine to separate one day.  



I haven't done a complete flapless landing yet. I normally use the 18Â° T/O position. The runway at my homebase is 1500 metres tarmac so indeed there is no reason not to try it.



Regards 

Roland



PH-ZTI

XS Trigear 914

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Landing on Tri Gear.

Morning Roland.

I land in the UK at Headcorn  in Kent and it shake my teeth, I had a little problem and made a Flap-less, thought this is nice, may be the center of pressure places different weight on the wheels or it settles down more gently i don,t now. Normally a really short landing would be best but then you have all that bumpy taxying after.

My kit number is 96 first flew 27/10/2000,

 

Nice to have Tarmac, My new base is like a ski jump,usually off at the bottom and climbing up the other side, its great fun, i am trying  all different Flaps and 30 seems good, its what works best for the conditions,but still experimenting at the moment.



As for the Kick back, The newer engines ,(I Think!!) are 4degree ATDC below 800 rpms and the older 8 Degrees BTDC or something like that.So the new should be better, however considering what these engines cost it should have been sorted out  in the first place. I plan to put a Soft Start on mine, its a dreadful sight seeing the propeller not making its mind up to which way it wants to go, A more powerful Starter sounds good to give it less or no  choice of direction.



Alan

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum