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Zenith thrown out of plane
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larrycmcfarland(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:02 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Hi Guys,

I’ve had the canopy undone in flight and the canopy could not open far enough to dump someone

unless the airspeed was in full stall.  If he pitched the nose up sharply and then fell through the stall, it

is possible to get ejected that way, but going anything faster than 60 and the canopy is going to stay within 10 inches

of closed even if it’s unlatched.

Very unfortunate though.

 

Larry McFarland  

601HDS sold after 7 years flying

Now in a Piper Cherokee

  [quote][b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:19 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Larry,

 

 I know what Zenith says about it, but I can tell you for certain that an XL canopy can rise to fully open if unlatched at cruise speed, and you will not be able to get it back down and latched.  I have lived through that and you can also ask the widow of the owner of that airplane about it. 

 

 Jay

   

  

     

  

    --

larrycmcfarland(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:13 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Hi Jay,

I believe youâ€™re saying there was no relative wind against the canopy, but this could only occur if the plane was nearing the end of a climb or pitch up stall

condition. Â No, the canopy will not close in flight, nor will it open fully or much more than the drag allows at normal airspeed.Â  Relative drag keeps the unlatched canopy

at a less than quarter-open if speedâ€™s are above 60 because it generates lift and still has drag. Â I couldnâ€™t guess about below that.Â  The effect of pitching one out of an airplane suggests a full pitch over at nearly zero airspeed, which Iâ€™ve done, and the negative forces can really throw you against the belts if you happen to be wearing them. Both of these conditions would seem to be necessary if a person were to be thrown from the plane.Â  Iâ€™d think a simple hard over arc would be hard to Â Â 

duplicate the result. 

Â 

I wasnâ€™t there, so itâ€™s very possible thereâ€™s a few more ways this couldâ€™ve happened.

 

Do Fly safe,

 

Larry McFarland

 

 

 

 

 

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Bannister

Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:19 AM

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane

 

Larry,



I know what Zenith says about it, but I can tell you for certain that an XL canopy can rise to fully open if unlatched at cruise speed, and you will not be able to get it back down and latched.  I have lived through that and you can also ask the widow of the owner of that airplane about it. 



Jay

 



 



--

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Hey Larry,

 

 I hear what you are saying and it makes sense.  However, that is definitely not what happened in my case.  We were at a level cruise at a speed of about 100 kts. When unlatched, the canopy flew up to about 70 degrees and the nose pitched down to about 60 degrees.  My headset and ball cap were blown off immediately.  The two of us were not able to pull the canopy back down  --  any.  I was never able to get the nose up to more than 10 degrees down and that is how we hit the ground. During my three  month recuperation and the four years since, I have re-lived it many times and still don't know why it happened the way it did. 

 

 Jay

    

  

     

  

     

  

    --

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

My instructor and I had the canopy open in a similar aircraft. The Evector Sportstar is a low-wing LSA with a forward-hinged canopy (although the canopy is split behind the seats). When the canopy popped I hung on its cross-bar with all my weight but could not close it. We were close to the runway and my instructor was able to land without further incident. I donâ€™t recall if we were able to maintain altitude.

 

Iâ€™ve attached photos from another 601XL open canopy incident from 2006 or earlier. I donâ€™t know much else about this incident but I think it is described in the archives (the original poster was coy about the pilot and details).

 

-- Craig

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Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane

The pictures tell quite the story.  A.) the canopy can rise dramatically and B.) the airplane is still controllable in that condition.  Another great reason for adding some kind of safety latch.



FWIW - One method used to bail out of fighters during WWII was to unbuckle your belt and put one foot on the stick and push.  Simple physics.



I wouldn't think of flying without a seat belt on.  A few times I've hit turbulence strong enough that unbelted I'd have struck my head on the cabin roof - hard!



So sad.....



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:49 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

The topic has come up in the past with pilots (like Jay and Larry) reporting

different experiences. Who can say why? W&B? XL vs. HD? Old style vs. newer

profile canopies? Hair styles? But there is no denying the differences.



-- Craig

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Tim,

 

 I can tell you for a fact that not all 601XLs are controllable with the canopy at its open position.  

 

 The very first thing I did with my own airplane after my accident (in another 601XL) was to add a tether that would only allow an unlatched canopy to open about an inch.

 

 Jay

    

  

     

  

     

  

    --

andrewtub

Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane

Just a guess but by the looks of where the canopy is broken he may have unfastened his seat belt to stand up and grab the canopy by the back edge and broke it while trying to close it.

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:16 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

This idea sounds believable and like a real Darwin moment.  We all 

should know by now that the only way to get an open canopy closed on an 

XL is to land first.



Paul

Camas, WA



On 3/30/2013 7:59 PM, andrewtub wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just a guess but by the looks of where the canopy is broken he may have unfastened his seat belt to stand up and grab the canopy by the back edge and broke it while trying to close it.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397383#397383





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_2301439_1900a0e2000005dc_595_634x370_388.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/article_2301439_1900a0e2000005dc_595_634x370_368.jpg

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane

We do know that in at least a few instances the XL was controllable and could be brought to a safe landing.  It would be interesting to study the factors relating to controllability but I for one will settle for installing a safety latch or tether.



Many factory built airplanes have configurations where they can't remain airborne as well. For example, lose the wing root fairings on a Piper Cub and you're coming down....



Older Cessnas were prone to have doors come unlatched.  If you slowed the airplane way down you might be able to close it, but I always taught my student's to focus on flying the airplane and land at a nearby airport before trying to close the door.  



I'm sure we'll be hearing more on the subject.... maybe we'll get some straight info that will end the speculation.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Zenith thrown out of plane

The key to every safe canopy up landing to date appears to have been immediate application of full power.

Last edited by sabrina on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:17 pm; edited 3 times in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Hi Sabrina,



Interesting ideas.



In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left 

shoulder.  I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my 

permission.



Also, I opened up the aluminum on the inside of the canopy frame and 

painted lines on the mechanism to show when each is fully latched. I 

often need to slam a small piece of 2x4 on the top of the frame to get 

the latch fully engaged.  This is also an item on my pre-takeoff 

checklist, but I usually make sure the canopy is properly latched before 

starting to taxi.



I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider 

building one.  Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do 

this.  Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy 

safety device.



Paul



On 3/31/2013 11:00 AM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tim,



 The key to every safe canopy up landing to date appears to have been immediate application of full power.



 Andrew,



 The idea of the owner standing up and trying to pull the canopy down does not sound that far out there. That would explain the seat belt not being fastened, and negate the comments about the surviving pilot's gross negligence--he did get the plane down, and it is hard to tell an owner what to do while you are trying to fly his airplane.



 Paul,



 Interrupting the air over the cowling before it has a chance to lift the canopy is one factor.  For those of you who want to experiment, do a tied down ground run up in strong headwind conditions, one with a 1 3/4" foam seal where the leading edge of the canopy meats the airframe and one where there is no seal affixed to the airframe.



 Another experiment would be to tack weld small winglets onto the rear of the canopy rails and compare the lift of the canopy in the same conditions as above.  They make great handles as well.



 Two other measures: Ejector pins so you can intentionally lose the canopy in mid flight if you experience an engine failure and an open canopy at the same time. Second- rig the canopy latches so each side needs to be opened independently. That way your passenger can't open it for you in flight without reaching across and in front of you.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397427#397427

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:56 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

I like Phillip Barnes idea: http://tinyurl.com/bs4ykbc

  Carlos



CH601-HD, 650 canopy





  On 31 March 2013 14:28, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)>

 

 Hi Sabrina,

 

 Interesting ideas.

 

 In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left shoulder.  I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my permission.

 

 Also, I opened up the aluminum on the inside of the canopy frame and painted lines on the mechanism to show when each is fully latched. I often need to slam a small piece of 2x4 on the top of the frame to get the latch fully engaged.  This is also an item on my pre-takeoff checklist, but I usually make sure the canopy is properly latched before starting to taxi.

   

 I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider building one.  Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do this.  Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy safety device.

   

 Paul

[b]

Afterfxllc(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:20 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

This is what it looks like in real life and it certainly looks like you  could be ejected if it suddenly went into a dive.

  

                                               

  



  

  In a message dated 3/30/2013 8:54:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jaybannist(at)cs.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hey Larry,



I hear what you are saying and it makes sense.     However, that is definitely not what happened in my case.  We were at a    level cruise at a speed of about 100 kts. When unlatched, the canopy flew up    to about 70 degrees and the nose pitched down to about 60    degrees.  My headset and ball cap were blown off    immediately.  The two of us were not able to pull the    canopy back down  --  any.  I was never able to get the nose up    to more than 10 degrees down and that is how we hit the ground. During my    three  month recuperation and the four years since, I have re-lived it    many times and still don't know why it happened the way it did.    



Jay

   



   



   



   -----Original    Message-----

From: Larry McFarland <larrycmcfarland(at)gmail.com>

To:    zenith601-list <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013    7:19 pm

Subject: RE: Zenith thrown out of plane



         Hi    Jay,

   I believe    youâ€™re saying there was no relative wind against the canopy, but this could    only occur if the plane was nearing the end of a climb or pitch up    stall

   condition.     No, the canopy will not close in flight, nor will it open fully or much    more than the drag allows at normal airspeed.  Relative drag keeps the    unlatched canopy

   at a less    than quarter-open if speedâ€™s are above 60 because it generates lift and still    has drag.  I couldnâ€™t guess about below that.  The effect of    pitching one out of an airplane suggests a full pitch over at nearly zero    airspeed, which Iâ€™ve done, and the negative forces can really throw you    against the belts if you happen to be wearing them. Both of these conditions    would seem to be necessary if a person were to be thrown from the plane.     Iâ€™d think a simple hard over arc would be hard to   

   duplicate    the result. 

    

   I wasnâ€™t    there, so itâ€™s very possible thereâ€™s a few more ways this couldâ€™ve    happened.

    

   Do Fly    safe,

    

   Larry    McFarland

    

    

    

     



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:20 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Some good ideas being presented here.  I used two spring-loaded barrel  bolts fitting into appropriate-sized holes in "L" plates, but before it breaks  ground I'll want a pants-and-suspenders  tether of some sort.

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 [quote]   ---

Afterfxllc(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:38 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

This is what I came up with and it can't open in flight but is so simple  and easy to open on the ground.

  

   

                                                              

  



  

  In a message dated 3/31/2013 3:20:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  paulrod36(at)msn.com writes:

 [quote]      Some good ideas being presented here.  I used two spring-loaded    barrel bolts fitting into appropriate-sized holes in "L" plates, but before it    breaks ground I'll want a pants-and-suspenders  tether of some  sort.

    

   Paul Rodriguez

   [quote]     ---

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jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:38 am Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Is this what you are looking for?

 

 I don't have any tether for the canopy, but would seriously consider  building one.  Alas, I really haven't thought out the best way to do  this.  Perhaps somebody has pictures of a neat design for a canopy  safety device.  Paul

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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

The original latch design for the XL had both sides latching independantly with two stage latches. I have had mine come unlatched on one side a few times and have even been able to reclose it in flight sometimes when this has happened. With this design, there is very little danger of unlatching the other side while attempting to close one side. On the new latch design, both latches are connected together through the torque tube and move as one. Attempting to close one side if it comes open will almost certainly cause the other side to come unlatched. 

independently-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, 

RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Sabrina,

 Interesting ideas.

 In my plane, the only control for the canopy latches is close to my left shoulder.  I can't imagine a passenger getting to reach that without my permission.

 Paul

 On 3/31/2013 11:00 AM, Sabrina wrote:

> 

> 

> Tim,

> 

> The key to every safe canopy up landing to date appears to have been immediate application of full power.

>

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:21 pm Post subject: Zenith thrown out of plane

Full power Scotty.

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.

do not archive.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 The topic has come up in the past with pilots (like Jay and Larry) reporting

 different experiences. Who can say why? W&B? XL vs. HD? Old style vs. newer

 profile canopies? Hair styles? But there is no denying the differences.

 

 -- Craig

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

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