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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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 Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
I have to admit to not having fully explored the stall characteristics
near the aft CG limits because it's so difficult to do. On one hand,
loading enough sand or water for a single pilot test is very difficult
to do safely. On the other hand, I don't know 3 other people I want to
subject to the exercise.
As we all know, stalls in a "typically" loaded '10 are benign and well
behaved. Recovery doesn't really require the 'textbook' response, you
just have to relax the pro-stall controls and add some power.
I'm thinking that I may be subject to extrapolating the benign stall and
recovery characteristics at typical loadings to stall and recovery
characteristics at more rearward loadings. This is a wake up call to me
to remember to remain assertive in my recoveries. On that point, thanks
for the post!
On a somewhat related matter, I've just now fully realized just how
different the landing characteristics of the '10 are at fore and aft
loadings. I find it difficult to get anything but stick back, roll on
greasers when I'm loaded with 2 in front and bags in the baggage
compartment (about 110.4" behind datum). The easiest landing plane I've
ever flown. With 4 on board, bags and low tanks, I find carrying a bit
of power into the flare gives me the best chance of smooth one. But
it's pretty easy to arrive with authority if I come in power-off. It's
pretty easy to get a typical 'student' landing if I come in too fast.
And with stalls and landings, I keep in mind that while my old Maule's
CG moved forward as I burned off fuel, the '10 does the opposite.
Though the difference is not great.
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: |
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
"aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
just how it went.
Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
"Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
longer. We lost about 300 feet.
I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
concern.
I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:47 am Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
|
--
|
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
|
--
|
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:48 am Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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The original conversation was a few weeks ago...
On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
|
--
|
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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Bill, I think you'll find that as you burn gas the cg moves aft if you start out with the cg fairly far aft. But if you start out near the forward limit, then the cg moves forward as you burn gas. It is important with the 10 to check cg in the landing configuration, regardless of where you start.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:56 pm Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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Thanks Tim, that explains, and I vaguely recall seeing it.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The original conversation was a few weeks ago...
On Mar 30, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.
|
--
|
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
|
|
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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| Back to top |
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:56 pm Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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B​ill, I agree, aft vs. fwd cg makes ​for two very different landing airplanes.  Someone recently posted that their best approaches seem very steep, and I feel the same way.  The runway comes up real fast but there's plenty of elevator--even more when loaded aft--to arrest decent and land gently.
​Flying a different -10 recently, solo and light, I noticed the plane lands much more nose-down, like a flatter attitude.  I need to get it a little slower in the flare than I'm used to, and see if the nose comes up any higher.  That plane doesn't have AOA so I'm just going by speed.  Maybe that's the difference.​
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
I have to admit to not having fully explored the stall characteristics near the aft CG limits because it's so difficult to do. Â On one hand, loading enough sand or water for a single pilot test is very difficult to do safely. Â On the other hand, I don't know 3 other people I want to subject to the exercise.
As we all know, stalls in a "typically" loaded '10 are  benign and well behaved.  Recovery doesn't really require the 'textbook' response, you just have to relax the pro-stall controls and add some power.
I'm thinking that I may be subject to extrapolating the benign stall and recovery characteristics at typical loadings to stall and recovery characteristics at more rearward loadings. Â This is a wake up call to me to remember to remain assertive in my recoveries. Â On that point, thanks for the post!
On a somewhat related matter, I've just now fully realized just how different the landing characteristics of the '10 are at fore and aft loadings. Â I find it difficult to get anything but stick back, roll on greasers when I'm loaded with 2 in front and bags in the baggage compartment (about 110.4" behind datum). Â The easiest landing plane I've ever flown. Â With 4 on board, bags and low tanks, I find carrying a bit of power into the flare gives me the best chance of smooth one. Â But it's pretty easy to arrive with authority if I come in power-off. Â It's pretty easy to get a typical 'student' landing if I come in too fast.
And with stalls and landings, I keep in mind that while my old Maule's CG moved forward as I burned off fuel, the '10 does the opposite. Â Though the difference is not great.
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. Â All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. Â My CG range is 8.4
to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). Â My CG on takeoff was
14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
"aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Â Years ago during phase 1 we
loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. Â I don't
recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
necessary, and the plane just flys out. Â On the first stall, that's
just how it went.
Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
"Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. Â So I
let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. Â The nose stayed straight
ahead. Â Then, the nose pitched WAY down. Â I added power to break the
stall and fly it out but there was no change. Â It felt like we were
descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. Â I was concerned
about entering a spin. Â So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
nose was pointed down. Â I kept the wings more or less level but at
this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
with the controls. Â I pushed forward, adding more power. Â The plane
then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
look at the airspeed. Â I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
started feeling normal again. Â The EFIS logs showed the whole event
lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
longer. Â We lost about 300 feet.
I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
experience. Â He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. Â That's
probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
concern.
I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url]Â CL
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
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Kelly, I think you're right, sometimes I see a conversation that is well-developed that I definitely would have read...only to find it's pretty far into the thread.  Like I missed the original post and a few replies.  If I go to the forum, it's all there and I can catch up.  Huh. I like the black hole theory.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I am curious......I get these emails at two different email addresses. At both I received Bill's response, but didn't receive Dave's initial email. Wondering if the list has a deep stall black hole.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
Dave, I can't add anything here except some reflection...
Bill
On 3/2/2013 12:35 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. Â All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat.Â
|
--
|
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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