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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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 Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:37 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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<<darn feds have said if you have a license and you don't meet
the medical standards that you cannot fly litesport,>>
This ambivalence about who can fly what and in which circumstances seems to
have going on ever since I joined this list.
No one seems to be able to get a definitive answer from any authority. Is
this a national issue or does it vary from State to State?. Does the FAA not
issue leaflets with guidance covering all these problems?. After all there
must be an actual LAW which governs these things and that is the backstop.
The FAA or whoever is merely responsible for enforcing that law.
It seems unbelievable that an official agency cannot give a definitive
answer to any question.
Here in the UK to fly anything we must have an annual medical certificate or
we are flying illegally. The depth of the examination depends on what you
fly. For an ultralight it merely means that your local doctor signs a form
saying that `In my opinion so and so is fit to fly an ultralight` Being the
applicants usual doctor he would be aware of any history that is likely to
disqualify them. Heart disease, fits etc.That is it. In all the years I have
been flying I have never been asked to produce any paperwork although it is
a requirement to carry copies in the plane. If flying to France you would
almost certainly be asked to produce the requisite paperwork.
As you qualify to fly heavier classes of planes the medical gets more in
depth . I don`t know the current rules but I applied for a student pilots
licence when I was switching from gliders to power (gliders then needed no
medical) I had to have an ECG and a thorough check.
Never was there any question of what was required. It was laid down exactly
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:35 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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At 05:37 AM 4/1/2013, Pat Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
<<darn feds have said if you have a license and you don't meet
the medical standards that you cannot fly litesport,>>
This ambivalence about who can fly what and in which circumstances seems to have going on ever since I joined this list.
No one seems to be able to get a definitive answer from any authority. Is this a national issue or does it vary from State to State?. Does the FAA not issue leaflets with guidance covering all these problems?. After all there must be an actual LAW which governs these things and that is the backstop. The FAA or whoever is merely responsible for enforcing that law.
It seems unbelievable that an official agency cannot give a definitive answer to any question. |
There is no question about who an fly what. The regulations are clear, it's just people that don't understand them. It's set at the national level, no state to state variation.
To fly a Part 103 ultralight, nothing is required, no medical.
To fly an aircraft meeting the Light-Sport definition, no medical is required, but if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed. You do need a valid drivers license (drivers licenses ARE issued at the state level), under the presumption that if the state considers you OK to drive, you're OK to fly. However, there is language to the effect that even if you're otherwise legal but you know you're not fit to fly, you may not.
To fly an aircraft heavier or faster than Light Sport, you need at least a Class III medical.
To fly a glider (including motorglider) or balloon, no medical is required, even if you failed your last one it's OK, but a similar language applies about the pilot knowing he's fit to fly.
Dana
--
Lie ? Me ? Never! No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun!
[quote][b]
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:39 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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On 04/01/2013 05:33 AM, Dana Hague wrote:
| Quote: | At 05:37 AM 4/1/2013, Pat Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)
<<darn feds have said if you have a license and you don't meet
the medical standards that you cannot fly litesport,>>
This ambivalence about who can fly what and in which circumstances seems to have going on ever since I joined this list.
No one seems to be able to get a definitive answer from any authority. Is this a national issue or does it vary from State to State?. Does the FAA not issue leaflets with guidance covering all these problems?. After all there must be an actual LAW which governs these things and that is the backstop. The FAA or whoever is merely responsible for enforcing that law.
It seems unbelievable that an official agency cannot give a definitive answer to any question. |
There is no question about who an fly what. The regulations are clear, it's just people that don't understand them. It's set at the national level, no state to state variation.
To fly a Part 103 ultralight, nothing is required, no medical.
To fly an aircraft meeting the Light-Sport definition, no medical is required, but if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed. You do need a valid drivers license (drivers licenses ARE issued at the state level), under the presumption that if the state considers you OK to drive, you're OK to fly. However, there is language to the effect that even if you're otherwise legal but you know you're not fit to fly, you may not.
To fly an aircraft heavier or faster than Light Sport, you need at least a Class III medical.
To fly a glider (including motorglider) or balloon, no medical is required, even if you failed your last one it's OK, but a similar language applies about the pilot knowing he's fit to fly.
Dana
--
Lie ? Me ? Never! No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun!
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Pat,
One problem is that here in the USA, FAA regs are not 'laws'. Congress directs the FAA to promote & maintain safety of flight, & largely lets the FAA write the actual regulations (with frequent interference for political affairs). At the top of the FAA food chain, many officials have no real world aviation experience; they are often political appointees. So the regs tend to be convoluted & seemingly contradictory in a legal sense, and literally contradictory in any practical sense. An example of practical contradiction was the rule that existed for decades saying that you couldn't fly a homebuilt experimental 'over densely populated areas, except for the purpose of takeoff and landing'. Even with this rule, if you were flying through a class C or class B airspace (typically over or near cities), ATC would knowingly route you directly over the city if it suited their purposes to keep you away from their arriving/departing traffic at the primary airport.
I suspect that Dana is correct about the glider rule. In over 20 years of flying, I never heard of the issue of 'failing your last medical' until Light Sport rules were adopted. But in Light Sport, it's definitely there.
Charlie
[quote][b]
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:24 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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no medical is required, but if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed. >>
Dana,
That seems odd.
`no medical required` would seem to cover all eventualities.
As for the rest
a) the first sentence (no medical required) makes this additional line totally unnecessary.
b) If you had a medical and failed, that failure can be set aside. Very strange
So the position is that if you were failed on your medical to fly a Cessna. because you had fits you could switch to Sports cat.and fly legally provided you choose not to tell anyone about the fits.
When a plane falls on someone one of these days because the pilot had fits the FAA are going to hold their hands up and say `Its not our fault. The pilot was very naughty and didn`t tell us about the fits`
I can see some lawyer getting very rich at that point.
Pat
[quote][b]
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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At 06:23 AM 4/2/2013, Pat Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | no medical is required, but if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed. >>
That seems odd.
`no medical required` would seem to cover all eventualities.
As for the rest
a) the first sentence (no medical required) makes this additional line totally unnecessary.
b) If you had a medical and failed, that failure can be set aside. Very strange
So the position is that if you were failed on your medical to fly a Cessna. because you had fits you could switch to Sports cat.and fly legally provided you choose not to tell anyone about the fits. |
No, if you fail the medical, it cannot be "set aside"; you have to either correct the condition that caused the failure or apply for a special issuance medical. A Sport Pilot must self certify that he's OK to fly. A failed medical makes him ineligible to self certify. If a SP with no medical (expired or never had one) has a medical condition that causes him to have an accident, the FAA can go after him.
Dana
--
It is probably true that stupid people would not watch intelligent television, but it is certainly true that intelligent people will watch stupid television.
[quote][b]
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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:48 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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theself certified concept is valid, for exampil ,in my town a guy i know had a dissy spell and went to the doctor he had several tests nothing was conclusive so he asked Dr Pinells opinion founder of air docs as he lives here in Michigan. being on the safe side my Buddy concluded he was no longer Safe to fly himself for several month, finally he started flying again. just because you have a drivers license it doesn't mean your safe to drive everyday.this self certified medical means We have the choice and freedom to decide for ourselves as long as we qualify for a drivers license. however some people cant handle that responsibility and fly when they sometimes shouldn't and people of a moor controlling nature feel THEY should be allowed to decide for us or that somebody should be in charge of deciding .
Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker
Michigan Sport Pilot Repair
http://michigansportpilotrepair.com/
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
Great Sails - Sailmaker
for Ultralight & Light Sport
(989)513-3022
From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: who can fly what
At 06:23 AM 4/2/2013, Pat Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | no medical is required, but if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed. >>
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| Quote: | That seems odd.
`no medical required` would seem to cover all eventualities.
As for the rest
a) the first sentence (no medical required) makes this additional line totally unnecessary.
b) If you had a medical and failed, that failure can be set aside. Very strange
So the position is that if you were failed on your medical to fly a Cessna. because you had fits you could switch to Sports cat.and fly legally provided you choose not to tell anyone about the fits. |
No, if you fail the medical, it cannot be "set aside"; you have to either correct the condition that caused the failure or apply for a special issuance medical. A Sport Pilot must self certify that he's OK to fly. A failed medical makes him ineligible to self certify. If a SP with no medical (expired or never had one) has a medical condition that causes him to have an accident, the FAA can go after him.
Dana
--
It is probably true that stupid people would not watch intelligent television, but it is certainly true that intelligent people will watch stupid television.
[quote]Dralle,ion" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi==============
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:16 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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<<if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed>>
I don`t think that I am thick but just what does that mean?
To me it reads that if you failed your last medical ignore it because you can`t be failed. Which is nonsense.
Very puzzled
Pat.
[quote][b]
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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At 08:16 AM 4/2/2013, Pat Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed>>
I don`t think that I am thick but just what does that mean?
To me it reads that if you failed your last medical ignore it because you can`t be failed. Which is nonsense. |
Just what it says.
If you never had a medical, you can fly as a Sport Pilot.
If you had a medical but it expired, you can fly as a SP (example, a Private Pilot dropping down to SP).
If you failed a medical, you can't fly as a SP.
If you failed a medical and then get a medical through a special issuance or whatever, you can fly as a SP. If you then let that one expire, you can still fly as a SP.
Dana
--
Politics: Poli (many) - tics (blood sucking parasites)
[quote][b]
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:13 am Post subject: Re: who can fly what |
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Another way to put it is this.
1) If the FAA proves to themselves that a pilot is medically unfit, he can no longer fly any aircraft, legally.
2) If you don't give the FAA a chance to do this every six month, year, two years, or five years (depending upon the class of medical etc) then you can't fly aircraft that don't meet the LSA limitations.
Convoluted thinking, I know, but the phrasing fits the FAA thinking on the subject.
Merriam-Webster says:
Definition of AIRCRAFT
: a vehicle (as an airplane or balloon) for traveling through the air
According to the FAA our ULs are not aircraft (just vehicles), which bends the Webster definition past its elastic limit, but that is the FAA for you. It seems that to qualify to be an FAA regulations writer, one must be a native speaker of gibberish, or a lawyer, which is redundant.
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:45 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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had a dissy spell and went to the doctor >>
Hi Malcolm,
very sensible and in that case the system worked as it is supposed to.
What happens if someone self certifies themselves as being fitand then has a medically related accident.Can the FAA go after him?
Be very difficult in court unless it could be proved that it was a known preexisting condition.
I don`t think the self certification system would survive a high profile crash into a crowd with a couple dead would it.
The problem is with the nutcases. We had one guy who, with a license but with only a little experience in 3 axis a/c bought himself a gyrocopter and tried to make his first flight in it in a crowded municipal park. Luckily the silly sod rammed a tree and killed himself before he had the chance to kill anyone else. You can`t legislate against stupidity.
Long may self certification flourish.
Pat
[quote][b]
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:51 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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What does one do when the legislators are stupid??  Herb
At 08:44 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
[quote]had a dissy spell and went to the doctor >>
Hi Malcolm,
very sensible and in that case the system worked as it is supposed to.
What happens if someone self certifies themselves as being fitand then has a medically related accident.Can the FAA go after him?
Be very difficult in court unless it could be proved that it was a known preexisting condition.
I don`t think the self certification system would survive a high profile crash into a crowd with a couple dead would it.
The problem is with the nutcases. We had one guy who, with a license but with only a little experience in 3 axis a/c bought himself a gyrocopter and tried to make his first flight in it in a crowded municipal park. Luckily the silly sod rammed a tree and killed himself before he had the chance to kill anyone else. You can`t legislate against stupidity.
Long may self certification flourish.
Pat
[b]
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:08 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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<<if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed>>
Thanks for explanation Dana. I understand it..
I still don`t think that is what the above quote says
Pat
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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Thom, It's not gibberish, it's legalese. The FAA mandate from Congress is to manage and control the airspace and all the aircraft within it. To abstain from this mandate and accommodate ultralights they did the unimaginable and relinquished control by calling them vehicles. Rather than chide or berate them I think whoever had the genius to do that should be put on a pedestal for praise and admiration. It was an amazing and wonderful piece of thinking and on top of that they put it into law. Despite pissing, moaning and out right cheating it has remained the law and continues to be an excellent example of bureaucratic restraint.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>
Another way to put it is this.
1) If the FAA proves to themselves that a pilot is medically unfit, he can no longer fly any aircraft, legally.
2) If you don't give the FAA a chance to do this every six month, year, two years, or five years (depending upon the class of medical etc) then you can't fly aircraft that don't meet the LSA limitations.
Convoluted thinking, I know, but the phrasing fits the FAA thinking on the subject.
Merriam-Webster says:
Definition of AIRCRAFT
: a vehicle (as an airplane or balloon) for traveling through the air
According to the FAA our ULs are not aircraft (just vehicles), which bends the Webster definition past its elastic limit, but that is the FAA for you. It seems that to qualify to be an FAA regulations writer, one must be a native speaker of gibberish, or a lawyer, which is redundant.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
no engine
FOR SALE
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:29 am Post subject: Re: who can fly what |
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Rick,
Your are correct. We are fortunate indeed to have Part 103, unique in the world, I believe. I was actually making fun of lawyers more than the FAA.
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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On 04/03/2013 10:08 AM, Pat Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<if you once did have a medical, the most recent one can't be failed>>
Thanks for explanation Dana. I understand it..
I still don`t think that is what the above quote says
Pat
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I think that the rest of the sentence is implied: if you once did have a medical, the most recent one (which could be the one you just took or the one you're about to take) can't be failed if you want to keep your flying privileges in any category/class (except ultralite and/or glider) after that most recent medical. Ultralites & gliders can be flown regardless of any medical; taken or not taken, passed or failed.
Charlie
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:41 pm Post subject: who can fly what |
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You can`t legislate against stupidity.
Long may self certification flourish.
Pat
| Quote: | | Patrick L/Kolbers: Even British certification cannot prevent some experienced pilots from crashing into their neighbor's hanger. I've been flying actively for 45 years. I was a late bloomer. Did not solo until I was 29 years old. I now fly as a sport pilot with self certification for my medical. I forgot to renew it last August. Was already headed West on my annual journey. Very convenient to be able to do that, plus saved me $75.00. Still undecided if I will get another flight physical or not. Probably will. That would make me legal to fly at night, and less the other normal Sport Pilot restrictions. At times I get caught out at night, but my insurance would not now pay as a Sport Pilot if I had an accident. john h |
0123
[quote][b]
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject: who can fly what |
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At 08:13 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Merriam-Webster says:
Definition of AIRCRAFT
: a vehicle (as an airplane or balloon) for traveling through the air
According to the FAA our ULs are not aircraft (just vehicles), which bends the Webster definition past its elastic limit, but that is the FAA for you. |
Actually, nowhere in the regulations does it say that an ultralight vehicle isn't an aircraft, only that Part 91 applies to "aircraft other than ultralight vehicles", which implies this ULs are just a different category of aircraft. FAR 1.1 says "Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air."
Dana
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Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
[quote][b]
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GeoB
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:43 pm Post subject: who can fly what |
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I think most of this interminable thread would dry up if all of the participants would first study the source material.
[quote][b]
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:07 am Post subject: who can fly what |
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According to the FAA our ULs are not aircraft (just vehicles), >>
Hi Thom,
That's a nice one. One could argue that in that case you are not under their
jurisdiction in any shape or form..
Luckily here the CAA just added microlights as another class of flying
machine and wrote a specification, in consultation with the BMAA, therefore
there is no doubt of your planes category .Consequently we have no limit to
the amount of fuel we carry, speed or height at which we can fly. There is a
formula based on wing loading and maximum weight and a maximum stalling
speed. This stops the evolution of a `lead sled` which might be difficult to
handle. This has not stopped several microlights now cruising at 100 mph
plus and the max weight has been adjusted upwards to accommodate improved
,but heavier designs.
Many pilots who flew `real` planes are switching to the upper end of the
microlight range for financial reasons.
You have your own doctors medical declaration. Cost around £10 or£20
depending on how well you know him instead of an expensive medical by an
`approved`examiner. At least £150.
Increased range of self maintenance, cheaper insurance. Performance often
better, certainly more fuel efficient.
I have a friend with a Tiger Moth. When I was flying my Eurostar I could
take off as he flew overhead. Climb to his height and overtake him within a
few miles. When I told him my costs compared to his he nearly had a fit.
Pat
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